Atheists go to hell even if they are good!?

[Rajni]

Universalism was condemned as Heresy by the Catholic Church all the way back to the times of Origen, when he first brought out the idea.

It is possible that everyone could be saved. Since we can never know the persons heart. As even the worst person can repent before he dies. Yes, even Judas.

Nothing wring with hoping everyone becomes saved. But saying that everyone is saved as if it was a dogma is incorrect as it collides with the issues of God's justice and retribution.

Considering that belief in God -- let alone anything tied to Him -- is on faith to begin with, it makes sense not to wax dogmatic on any aspect of theology, since we really can't know definitively till we get there anyway.

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[razeontherock]

Correction: The concept of obey does not appear in your understanding of that verse, and neither does the concept of bind appear in your understanding of that verse.

No ma'am. Words have definitions. What those words mean in the original language is not what you're trying to impose upon it.

 

[razeontherock]

McLaughlin, what on earth are you trying to say here? Since when did God become a ... newt?

Following context, it is in no way possible to come to the conclusion you just did.

 

[razeontherock]

Considering that belief in God -- let alone anything tied to Him -- is on faith to begin with, it makes sense not to wax dogmatic on any aspect of theology, since we really can't know definitively till we get there anyway.

.

This is humorous, seeing you trying to convince a Roman Catholic of this idea. (I don't like the word or concept of dogma myself, but there are some things that are knowable. You'll also find that the bulk of those, are 100% agreed upon across Christianity)

 

[Rajni]

No ma'am. Words have definitions. What those words mean in the original language is not what you're trying to impose upon it.

Very true, words have definitions.
It's helpful to realize, though, that there are legions of folks who would convince others that their perspective on what those words mean is somehow not what they really mean (have you noticed how Scripture never means what you think it means, it means what the other guy thinks it means?)

Following context, it is in no way possible to come to the conclusion you just did.

The original contention (the essence of which is that God is somehow not responsible for humanity or how it turned out) is (imo) inaccurate. I'm not saying that He is to blame, but He is responsible, i.e., fully knowledgeable as to how things were going to play out, and He proceeded with His course anyway.

This is humorous, seeing you trying to convince a Roman Catholic of this idea. (I don't like the word or concept of dogma myself, but there are some things that are knowable. You'll also find that the bulk of those, are 100% agreed upon across Christianity)

True, there are some things that are knowable, at least for practical purposes. As for the bulk of them (at least, in the area of theology) being 100% agreed upon across Christianity, not even close (from what I have witnessed, anyway). I owe CF a debt of gratitude in teaching me this very important point over the years. There is as much diversity of perspective within Christianity as there is outside of it. That doesn't have to be a bad thing, though... it's likely a more unnerving prospect for those who feel their salvation rides on Correct Belief.

 

[Doveaman]

It can sure seem like God is doing the punishing for wrongdoing, but I hesitate to look at it quite that way. Since sin does come with its own consequences, it could be the case that we are punished by our sins rather than for them.

I tend to see it this way too.

But still, if God is the one who has "bound" us up in the sin then it would seem like He is the one responsible for our present wrongdoings, doesn't it?

Instead of "binding" us in wrongdoing and us suffering the consequences He can just set us free from being "bound" so we can do right. What's the point of putting us through hell here on earth by keeping us "bound"?

 

[Doveaman]

Considering that belief in God -- let alone anything tied to Him -- is on faith to begin with, it makes sense not to wax dogmatic on any aspect of theology, since we really can't know definitively till we get there anyway.

Are you saying the death and resurrection of Jesus is not known definitively?

Are you saying many Christians died for something they were not certain about?

There is as much diversity of perspective within Christianity as there is outside of it. That doesn't have to be a bad thing, though... it's likely a more unnerving prospect for those who feel their salvation rides on Correct Belief.

Well it certainly doesn't ride on Wrong Belief.

 

[Rajni]

I tend to see it this way too.

But still, if God is the one who has "bound" us up in the sin then it would seem like He is the one responsible for our present wrongdoings, doesn't it?

Instead of "binding" us in wrongdoing and us suffering the consequences He can just set us free from being "bound" so we can do right. What's the point of putting us through hell here on earth by keeping us "bound"?

Good questions. Why He has chosen to do things the way He has is beyond me. Thank goodness whatever hell we go through on earth is only temporary -- to believe there's another, permanent hell awaiting most of mankind after this one is exhausting (I'm not sure how I managed believing that all those years myself, lol).

Are you saying the death and resurrection of Jesus is not known definitively?

Are you saying many Christians died for something they were not certain about?

We can feel certain of -- and die for -- all sorts of things. However, Christianity isn't the only religion with martyrs.

Well it certainly doesn't ride on Wrong Belief.

It doesn't ride on belief at all, imo. Not if it's a hard fact of reality. Just like any fact of life, it will do what it was intended to do independent of individual vote on the matter.

Belief is not the active ingredient in any facet of reality -- things are as they are regardless of what we believe. The sun is hot regardless of what we believe about it, because the sun's heat is a fact of reality. Gravity pulls us to the earth regardless of what we believe about it, because the force of gravity is a fact of reality. The store down the street is open from 6am to 10pm whether or not I believe it is. It doesn't suddenly close at 2pm if I were to suddenly no longer believe it's open at that time. Truth is like that... it is what it is apart from our beliefs about it.

Therefore, if the power of Christ's death has the impact on all of mankind that it was intended to have, and that impact is indeed a fact just like the shape of the earth is a fact, then it will come to pass for each and every individual, regardless of what they believe about it. Reality is like that.

 

[Doveaman]

Good questions. Why He has chosen to do things the way He has is beyond me. Thank goodness whatever hell we go through on earth is only temporary –

It would be much easier to cope with if we knew the reason for it, don’t you think?

You would think that such a compassionate and loving God would at least give us a reason for the hell He is putting us through. I mean, take me through all the hell you want but as least give me a reason.

to believe there's another, permanent hell awaiting most of mankind after this one is exhausting (I'm not sure how I managed believing that all those years myself, lol).

I’m not sure how you manage to believe the things you do now.

We can feel certain of -- and die for -- all sorts of things. However, Christianity isn't the only religion with martyrs.

But it’s the only religion with a martyr coming back to life after being dead for three days.

It doesn't ride on belief at all, imo. Not if it's a hard fact of reality. Just like any fact of life, it will do what it was intended to do independent of individual vote on the matter.

Belief is not the active ingredient in any facet of reality -- things are as they are regardless of what we believe. The sun is hot regardless of what we believe about it, because the sun's heat is a fact of reality. Gravity pulls us to the earth regardless of what we believe about it, because the force of gravity is a fact of reality. The store down the street is open from 6am to 10pm whether or not I believe it is. It doesn't suddenly close at 2pm if I were to suddenly no longer believe it's open at that time. Truth is like that... it is what it is apart from our beliefs about it.

Well, if what you saying is true about salvation it would sure make the Christian life much easier to live. We could just do whatever we want to make our life easier, no matter how immoral or unethical it is, because in the end we will still go to heaven anyway.

Therefore, if the power of Christ's death has the impact on all of mankind that it was intended to have, and that impact is indeed a fact just like the shape of the earth is a fact, then it will come to pass for each and every individual, regardless of what they believe about it. Reality is like that.

And if burning in hell is indeed a fact just like the shape of the earth is a fact, then it will come to pass for each and every individual, regardless of what they believe about it. Reality is like that.

 

[Rajni]

It would be much easier to cope with if we knew the reason for it, don’t you think? You would think that such a compassionate and loving God would at least give us a reason for the hell He is putting us through. I mean, take me through all the hell you want but as least give me a reason.

Your Bible tells you why, doesn't it? Besides that, I thought the strength to get through such hard times came primarily from the Spirit, rather than reasons.

I’m not sure how you manage to believe the things you do now.

LOL! It's far easier than believing in a "hell" on earth and then "hell" after. If I had continued to believe that, I would be demanding reasons from God too.

But it’s the only religion with a martyr coming back to life after being dead for three days.

And yet you need reasons for going through "hell" on earth? Isn't the belief in a martyr that came back to life after three days (and the empowering from the Spirit He sent on top of that) enough? And after all he went through for mankind, do you really think he would settle for less than all of what he so dearly paid for?

Well, if what you saying is true about salvation it would sure make the Christian life much easier to live. We could just do whatever we want to make our life easier, no matter how immoral or unethical it is, because in the end we will still go to heaven anyway.

Only if avoiding endless hell were the reason one is a Christian. Even without the carrot of heaven dangling in front of us, it doesn't take much to realize that immoral/unethical behavior comes with it's own consequences. Surely you find benefits to having a relationship with Jesus other than heaven-some-day? I feel as though I have already experienced heaven-here-and-now, as well as the promise of heaven-some-day, in my walk with the Divine (in the Christian context as well as outside of it).

And if burning in hell is indeed a fact just like the shape of the earth is a fact, then it will come to pass for each and every individual, regardless of what they believe about it. Reality is like that.

Perhaps, although this belief would explain why some don't seem to be finding much other than the promise of a future heaven to keep them on the Christian path, if this is what they truly believe about their god. Hell on earth is right! I'm sorry that particular god wasn't able to prevent such an outcome for those supposedly made in his very own image.

 

[The Beautiful Heresy]

Very true, words have definitions.
It's helpful to realize, though, that there are legions of folks who would convince others that their perspective on what those words mean is somehow not what they really mean (have you noticed how Scripture never means what you think it means, it means what the other guy thinks it means?)

The original contention (the essence of which is that God is somehow not responsible for humanity or how it turned out) is (imo) inaccurate. I'm not saying that He is to blame, but He is responsible, i.e., fully knowledgeable as to how things were going to play out, and He proceeded with His course anyway.

True, there are some things that are knowable, at least for practical purposes. As for the bulk of them (at least, in the area of theology) being 100% agreed upon across Christianity, not even close (from what I have witnessed, anyway). I owe CF a debt of gratitude in teaching me this very important point over the years. There is as much diversity of perspective within Christianity as there is outside of it. That doesn't have to be a bad thing, though... it's likely a more unnerving prospect for those who feel their salvation rides on Correct Belief.

I love your posts, Amen sis!

 

[The Beautiful Heresy]

Originally Posted by chaela

Very true, words have definitions.
It's helpful to realize, though, that there are legions of folks who would convince others that their perspective on what those words mean is somehow not what they really mean(have you noticed how Scripture never means what you think it means, it means what the other guy thinks it means?

)
​

That is a classic truth. It will NEVER mean what you say it does, and ALWAYS what that 'other' guy says it does.

​

 

[razeontherock]

The original contention (the essence of which is that God is somehow not responsible for humanity or how it turned out) is (imo) inaccurate. I'm not saying that He is to blame, but He is responsible, i.e., fully knowledgeable as to how things were going to play out, and He proceeded with His course anyway.

This is an interesting point. Have you fathomed that God has taken full responsibility, for the sin and redemption of all mankind?

True, there are some things that are knowable, at least for practical purposes. As for the bulk of them (at least, in the area of theology) being 100% agreed upon across Christianity, not even close

You switched from dogma, to things that are knowable. If you stick within the subset of the 2, you will find very little divergence. And that the disagreements within that subset are primarily over things that could be argued shouldn't be included in that subset. I also view this diversity as a good thing! It points out the largeness of our Lord, and we can benefit immensely from other's POV ...

 

[razeontherock]

It doesn't ride on belief at all, imo. Not if it's a hard fact of reality. Just like any fact of life, it will do what it was intended to do independent of individual vote on the matter.

I'm not sure you're expressing reductive materialism here, but you are expressing materialism; denial that any spirit exists, like the Sadducees.

Therefore, if the power of Christ's death has the impact on all of mankind that it was intended to have, and that impact is indeed a fact just like the shape of the earth is a fact, then it will come to pass for each and every individual, regardless of what they believe about it. Reality is like that.

It's a great big world, and anyone who has ever been impacted by Christ in this life will tell you He does not operate like that; whether we understand it or not. You will notice we have a certain capacity to create our own reality? G-d is about expanding that, not limiting it!

 

[razeontherock]

And after all He [Jesus] went through for mankind, do you really think he would settle for less than all of what he so dearly paid for?

This too is an excellent point. You'll notice that quite unlike the wave of false thinking re: "omnibenevolence" that has swept across CF lately, that G-d is also a G-d of wrath. Coincidence or connection?

 

[Rajni]

This is an interesting point. Have you fathomed that God has taken full responsibility, for the sin and redemption of all mankind?

I believe He has.

I'm not sure you're expressing reductive materialism here, but you are expressing materialism; denial that any spirit exists, like the Sadducees.

That was not my intention at all. Quite the opposite. If Christ's death, and it's intended outcome, is indeed a hard, inarguable fact that isn't contingent upon personal opinion, it's power will be carried out regardless of our beliefs in -- or about -- it.

The power of the cross, like God, isn't like Tinker Bell, the latter which is said to die if folks don't believe in her. Tinker Bell is a fantasy, and as such requires belief to sustain her, so to speak. My point is that if God, Jesus, and the power of Christ's sacrifice is not mere fantasy, the Divine intent behind it will have it's desired effect apart from individual belief in/about it.

This too is an excellent point. You'll notice that quite unlike the wave of false thinking re: "omnibenevolence" that has swept across CF lately, that G-d is also a G-d of wrath. Coincidence or connection?

Upon Whom was that wrath supposedly already poured out?

.

 

[razeontherock]

If Christ's death, and it's intended outcome, is indeed a hard, inarguable fact that isn't contingent upon personal opinion, it's power will be carried out regardless of our beliefs in -- or about -- it.

That's not what Scripture teaches. How does our sin get transferred to the Cross?

the Divine intent behind it will have it's desired effect apart from individual belief in/about it.

The Divine intent very much centers on the human heart.

Upon Whom was that wrath supposedly already poured out?

This is playing into teachings of the western Churches, that do indeed engender false concepts.

 

[Rajni]

That's not what Scripture teaches. How does our sin get transferred to the Cross?

Supposedly through Jesus Christ, not human vote. Is it actually a Tinker-Bell-esque scenario, where the power is only effective if you believe ... ?

The Divine intent very much centers on the human heart.

It centers on the human heart, sure, but it is not dictated by the human heart. Big difference, there.

This is playing into teachings of the western Churches, that do indeed engender false concepts.

Then it seems we've come full circle. As I indicated in post #183, once all the churches have finally figured it all out and come to an agreement, then they can let me know. In the meantime, of course it's going to be a case that one church's teaching is another church's false concept.

 

[Alawishis]

I really dislike the concept of Hell. I am really glad I don't have it in my belief system.

I understand that this concept is the reason most Atheists site as what first caused them to doubt the existence of God. That a loving God could burn people in eternal torment. "Good" people live in heaven, knowing some of their loved ones are being torchered.

Back to the original question. If a person is truly good, and not good in worldly terms but in Godly terms, I have no doubt that the Lord would reveal himself to them. I think of Saul who, in his own mind was a good person, thought he was doing God's work. God winks at the sins we unknowingly commit. I'm sure there will be people in heaven who have never met or heard of Jesus.

For those of us that know, there is an accounting. If we knowingly turn away, for that we are held accountable.

 

[SonOfTheWest]

Ergo punishment based on nothing but thought crime. Given the nature of religious faith. I'd be more inclined to blame the ones who consider themselves believers than the unbelievers.