Atheists go to hell even if they are good!?

[razeontherock]

I would, for instance, take an insult like 'english isn't your first language, is it' as an ad hom. Ad homs are attacks on the person you're debating with rather than the ideas they have, and are usually unrelated to the subject of the debate itself (as above).

That incident was totally related to the conversation, not an insult, completely focused on the ideas a person had expressed, and actually attempting to excuse that person. That's a whole lot of misunderstandings, over simple stuff.

 

[Upisoft]

Adam was made in G-d's image. Adam's children were made in ... Adam's image.

Made by who or what?

 

[Rajni]

That'd be nice. It sure is an easier Gospel to preach!

Actually, it's just as hard as the "turn or burn" approach, if not harder, I kid you not.

Now maybe we should examine what the Bible actually says about your opening statement in this post? Responsibility for our actions always remains with us; He did not "bind us to disobey." This is the point of the very first story in the Bible ...

Well, what anyone would be offering me is not "what the bible actually says", but rather "what they say the bible actually says", something that to this day is debated among Christians. Once they have finally figured it all out and come to an agreement, then they can let me know.

As for binding us to disobey, I got that from Romans 11:32.

 

[Rajni]

Is there something that was not created by God? If "no", then everything in anyone is from God and therefore good. If "yes", then who is the creator?

Adam was made in G-d's image. Adam's children were made in ... Adam's image.

Which is to say that Adam's children are made in God's image. It's the whole "If A=B, and B=C, then A=C" thang.

 

[Doveaman]

As for binding us to disobey, I got that from Romans 11:32.

So if we don't believe in God does this mean we should live our lives in obedience?

 

[Rajni]

So if we don't believe in God does this mean we should live our lives in obedience?

I see Romans 11:32 simply explaining why our nature is what it is during this phase of our existence. Rather than it being an unforeseen accident that took God by surprise, it's part of the overall plan.

As for what bearing that has on whether one should Live In Obedience (a phrase that could mean different things to different people), I think there are probably enough cases where someone who doesn't believe in God has behaved more obediently than someone who does, that a connection between the two can't always be assumed. Belief and behaving don't always show up together.

 

[StThomasMore]

Well, this is a strange twist! Jews say one thing about Jewish history, and Catholics another?

depends on which generation of Jews you are talking about. If you read Louis Ginzberg's "Legends of the Jews", which is a huge book of biblical OT tradition, you will find that God created Gehenna during the 6 days creation epic. And that there are certain compartments in Gehenna too(Tartarus)

 

[cruciformdesigns]

Judgement is in the hands of God! Forgiveness is the heart of the Christian Faith ........we cannot know or measure the extent of that forgiveness other than through the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross and through His Resurrection. An Athiest can be saved if we realize that Gods heart is not our heart but to be good is to become part of God because we become Godlike....and He is merciful.

I am Catholic and one of our more recent saints was a fulltime confessor and lived his entire priesthood in the confessional box and rarely even ate food. He heard many confess their sins and when finished would remind them of those they had forgotten. He said there is a hell but few go there....God has a way of talking to the human heart even in the last second of life and many return to Him but there are those who go to hell..many more return to Him! God's Love is a Mystery!

 

[Rajni]

Judgement is in the hands of God! Forgiveness is the heart of the Christian Faith ........we cannot know or measure the extent of that forgiveness other than through the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross and through His Resurrection. An Athiest can be saved if we realize that Gods heart is not our heart but to be good is to become part of God because we become Godlike....and He is merciful.

I am Catholic and one of our more recent saints was a fulltime confessor and lived his entire priesthood in the confessional box and rarely even ate food. He heard many confess their sins and when finished would remind them of those they had forgotten. He said there is a hell but few go there....God has a way of talking to the human heart even in the last second of life and many return to Him but there are those who go to hell..many more return to Him! God's Love is a Mystery!

I love what Pope John Paul II said about salvation.

.

 

[Doveaman]

I see Romans 11:32 simply explaining why our nature is what it is during this phase of our existence. Rather than it being an unforeseen accident that took God by surprise, it's part of the overall plan.

That may be true, but He punishes us for evil acts done due to that very same "nature".

It's as if He "bound" us this way and then punishes us for being this way. Is that how you see it?

I love what Pope John Paul II said about salvation.

Does he mean everyone will be saved in the end no matter what?

 

[Rajni]

That may be true, but He punishes us for evil acts done due to that very same "nature".
It's as if He "bound" us this way and then punishes us for being this way. Is that how you see it?

It can sure seem like God is doing the punishing for wrongdoing, but I hesitate to look at it quite that way. Since sin does come with its own consequences, it could be the case that we are punished by our sins rather than for them.

Does he mean everyone will be saved in the end no matter what?

He sounds like it, although one Catholic in another forum over in Yahoo Groups to whom I shared those quotes told me that he wasn't saying what I thought he was saying, and left it at that. Honestly, though, he leaves me little room to think he's saying anything but that God will prevail in the saving department.

I get the hunch that PJPII was, at the very least, a "hopeful universalist". Perhaps there are Catholics on this forum reading this who can shed more light on it (either here or in another thread if that would be more suitable).
.

 

[razeontherock]

Well, what anyone would be offering me is not "what the bible actually says", but rather "what they say the bible actually says", something that to this day is debated among Christians. Once they have finally figured it all out and come to an agreement, then they can let me know.

That's a tired old excuse that really has no application on 99.9% of all issues that make the slightest difference. There is virtually no divergence within Christianity on this point.

As for binding us to disobey, I got that from Romans 11:32.

The concept of disobey does not appear, and neither does the concept of bind. You have done violence to Scripture. (Would this be a good time for a militant atheist joke?)

 

[razeontherock]

Which is to say that Adam's children are made in God's image. It's the whole "If A=B, and B=C, then A=C" thang.

WRONG WRONG WRONG. If A gets turned into a newt, then A no longer exists as A, and when two former A's now newts reproduce, they make newts, not A's. And no, we never did get better. It's in all the papers!

 

[razeontherock]

I see Romans 11:32 simply explaining why our nature is what it is during this phase of our existence.

But it doesn't speak to that. At all. Even if you want to stretch the point, it doesn't speak to that unless you're Jewish, alive shortly after Jesus' birth. (Within 100 years or so, max)

Belief and behaving don't always show up together.

This is a profound statement! G-d wants seamless unity between our believior and our behavior.

 

[razeontherock]

It can sure seem like God is doing the punishing for wrongdoing, but I hesitate to look at it quite that way. Since sin does come with its own consequences, it could be the case that we are punished by our sins rather than for them.

This is definitely true in this lifetime! Puts a whole new spin on forgiveness, too ...

 

[StThomasMore]

It can sure seem like God is doing the punishing for wrongdoing, but I hesitate to look at it quite that way. Since sin does come with its own consequences, it could be the case that we are punished by our sins rather than for them.
He sounds like it, although one Catholic in another forum over in Yahoo Groups to whom I shared those quotes told me that he wasn't saying what I thought he was saying, and left it at that. Honestly, though, he leaves me little room to think he's saying anything but that God will prevail in the saving department.

I get the hunch that PJPII was, at the very least, a "hopeful universalist". Perhaps there are Catholics on this forum reading this who can shed more light on it (either here or in another thread if that would be more suitable).
.

Universalism was condemned as Heresy by the Catholic Church all the way back to the times of Origen, when he first brought out the idea.

It is possible that everyone could be saved. Since we can never know the persons heart. As even the worst person can repent before he dies. Yes, even Judas.

Nothing wring with hoping everyone becomes saved. But saying that everyone is saved as if it was a dogma is incorrect as it collides with the issues of God's justice and retribution.

 

[StThomasMore]

WRONG WRONG WRONG. If A gets turned into a newt, then A no longer exists as A, and when two former A's now newts reproduce, they make newts, not A's. And no, we never did get better. It's in all the papers!

newts, lol

God gives everyone a unique soul.

 

[razeontherock]

It does not appear that this gift is automatic at birth. Rather, His gift of a unique soul occurs with re-generation. If you choose to believe that begins with infant Baptism, I'm not about to contradict that. We could even speculate that it might have some effect ...

 

[Rajni]

That's a tired old excuse that really has no application on 99.9% of all issues that make the slightest difference. There is virtually no divergence within Christianity on this point.

If you say so. I have witnessed something quite different, but whaddevah.

The concept of disobey does not appear, and neither does the concept of bind. You have done violence to Scripture.

Correction: The concept of obey does not appear in your understanding of that verse, and neither does the concept of bind appear in your understanding of that verse. Rather than having "done violence to Scripture" (how dramatic!), I have simply expressed an undersanding of Scripture that is different from your own. Surely I don't have to explain this to you?

(Would this be a good time for a militant atheist joke?)

If you can find a militant atheist around here willing to honor your request, go for it. I'm not qualified for the job, nor find it necessary, myself.

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[Rajni]

WRONG WRONG WRONG. If A gets turned into a newt, then A no longer exists as A, and when two former A's now newts reproduce, they make newts, not A's. And no, we never did get better. It's in all the papers!

McLaughlin, what on earth are you trying to say here? Since when did God become a ... newt?