Atheists go to hell even if they are good!?

[razeontherock]

You have to believe that God allows those who were not able to believe in him to be tormented.

I don't believe this is a factual statement. This reveals at least one source of your angst on the subject, that can be corrected. God does not Judge us based on what we are not able to do, but on what we are able to do. I could say much more on this, but it is better for another thread.

 

[razeontherock]

Hell was the same "place" as Heaven: living in the presence of God and directly experiencing God's love. Whether this was experienced as pleasure or torment depended on one's disposition towards God.

I've heard it expressed as this life is like a dressing room, to learn to love what God loves, hate what He hates, and Love God Himself.

 

[Doveaman]

I could try and explain the meaning of free will once again, since you're still not getting it, but I honestly don't have the time. I could provide a list of basic philosophy and critical thinking books that could really further your education if you'd like. It may help with any miscommunication you have on these forums, and knowing a little bit about critical thinking really is a boon in everyday life. I wish critical thinking classes were mandatory in schools. I think we'd produce fewer people who believe odd things.

I was under the impression that freewill is the freedom to exercise your will any how you choose. Do I need a whole set of books to understand this?

Here's an example of freewill:

"I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses, therefore choose life, so that you and your children may live." - Deut 30:19.

Heaven or Hell is determined by the choice we freely make. It is for us to take God's advice and freely make the right choice.

 

[razeontherock]

But that would be an inaccurate observation of God, who could give everyone 10 million dollars if he so chose to (ignoring the economical consequences of that).

It is also worth adding that the accurate situation of most people is that they don't know that there are 10 million dollars around the corner, or in a certain location. They have no reason to look and it is highly unfair to them, in in an afterlife (going back to what you are contrasting it with) to undergo eternal torment for it.

You just expressed why the Gospel must be preached. You also just argued about "accurate observation of God," who you don't believe in. Don't you find that strange?

 

[razeontherock]

Even in the absence of all the scientific knowledge we have there's no reason to believe the claim of theists. It's magic.

This is your own misunderstanding, and every time an atheist repeats this, godiddit, or god of the gaps, they are expressing unenlightened myopia. Just a FYI

 

[razeontherock]

I was under the impression that freewill is the freedom to exercise your will any how you choose. Do I need a whole set of books to understand this?

Here's an example of freewill:

"I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses, therefore choose life, so that you and your children may live." - Deut 30:19.

Heaven or Hell is determined by the choice we freely make. It is for us to take God's advice and freely make the right choice.

This is G-d's perspective, and how free will is used within Christianity. Of course human philosophy will deny that even exists in order to cling to it's own creations

 

[Doveaman]

The ONLY responsibility we have is to preach the Gospel... The ones who have ears will definately hear.

That would include everything with "ears", right?

Also belief has to do with the heart as well the mind.... So if this thread IMHO is about who gets to heaven...Hmmm.. I have to say that although Christ says I am the way and the truth... still we are not to interfere with that individual commitment that even the so called atheist have in their lives. Because if someone lives according to an ethic code that is indeed something positive for God.... Again it has to do with how we are living our lives and if we fail to believe in God then the second best would be to care for our fellow man at least ... My 0.2 cents here.

Are you saying atheists can be saved by just caring for their fellow man?

 

[Rajni]

Here is a quote from an old Wikipedia article on the topic (that doesn’t seem to be around anymore) that I thought explained it pretty well: "For many ancient Christians, Hell was the same "place" as Heaven: living in the presence of God and directly experiencing God's love. Whether this was experienced as pleasure or torment depended on one's disposition towards God. St. Isaac of Syria wrote in Mystic Treatises: "... those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!" This ancient view is still the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church."

Yes -- this!! I'm inclined to believe it is something along these
lines.

Since I believe God is Omnipresent, I don't think there would be any
geographical location where He isn't present. So "eternal separation"
wouldn't be possible for man to achieve in the literal sense.

The only point where I might part ways with the above description is
that I don't see people remaining opposed to God's love forever.
Everyone would fall in love with Him eventually (imo).

But otherwise, the whole one-man's-pleasure/other-man's-poison
dynamic, yes, I can totally see it being like that.


.
.

 

[Rajni]

His power to save or do anything else is not affected by man's CHOOSING to go to hell.

So.... why, then, would man's "choosing to go to hell" land him in hell, if
indeed God's power to save overruled that choice?
.

 

[Doveaman]

Second best still gets a person spending eternity in the Lake of Fire. we're to point them to the One Who saves, not the second best.

This second best offering reminds me of Cain, the brother of Abel.

 

[Rajni]

Then why repent as opposed to continuing to do what you do if there is no consequence?

Perhaps because just being in a relationship with the Divine, here and
now, is rewarding in and of itself? Hopefully, Christians see Him as more
than mere fire-insurance.

You have seen no one come into a relationship with God who has not recognized what they are being saved from. That's why He is called SAVIOR.

Well, I have not seen each and every person who claims to have come
into a relationship with Him, so I cannot say definitively what they have
or have not recognized amongst the details.

And I'm sure you already know that one doesn't have to be saved from
"endless torment in hell" to be saved or to have a Savior.

The gift of salvation is available to all. Not all choose to accept it.

The jury's still out on that one -- the Story isn't over yet.

(I realize I have a terrible habit of over-estimating the King of the
Universe; please bear with me )





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[Philothei]

That would include everything with "ears", right?
Are you saying atheists can be saved by just caring for their fellow man?

ONLY human ears! No ...I cannot say this as I am definately not God

 

[Rajni]

My view is that your desire to see that no one be punished/tortured/tormented for eternity can be attributed to what I would define as goodness. 2 Peter 3:9 says The Lord... ...is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

 

[razeontherock]

just being in a relationship with the Divine, here and now, is rewarding in and of itself? Hopefully, Christians see Him as more
than mere fire-insurance.

I have preached this from the pulpit.

the Story isn't over yet

And now abideth these 3, faith HOPE and charity.

Faith, which worketh by Love, only works through the conduit of Hope.

To her that is pure, all things are pure.

 

[Doveaman]

I can't remember at this point who, but I heard someone suggest near Jerusalem, but I assume that was to make it "the Jews" that killed him LOL

I know it isn't recorded in the NT, so I just find it interesting.

They were probably referring to Stephen.

 

[b&wpac7]

I would think that genuine repentance wouldn't need the threat of
punishment as it's motivation.

Is fear of punishment the only reason to enter into a relationship with
the Lord? It seems I have seen other, more noble reasons for doing so
presented in the bible...


.

I think a man like David would be horrified at the idea that being close to God wasn't enough to repent but the threat of punishment was the motivation. I feel sad for anybody who only has that as a reason.

 

[b&wpac7]

They were probably referring to Stephen.

No they said Paul.

 

[Doveaman]

It is also the Spirit that shows people why they need a Savior. Yes, we can utter words, but that utterance is not what brings forth fruit.

Fruit grow from seeds.

"I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow." - 1 Cor 3:6.

The Spirit and the words of the Word are inseparable.

 

[Philothei]

I think a man like David would be horrified at the idea that being close to God wasn't enough to repent but the threat of punishment was the motivation. I feel sad for anybody who only has that as a reason.

And you are right... It should not be the fear of the Lord...but the awe we have for Him who 'does wonders"...To me God is the source of my life my A and Omega... Alll depends on Him and Him alone. Contemplation of Him is indeed a wondrous thing... I never think of punishment as I cannot fathom being away from Him. His love is but experiential...no one can describe it except from actually being in it!

"...every day we should stand in awe of Him, as He is with us, and do what is pleasing before Him. If we are unable now to perceive Him with our physical eyes, we can, if we are watchful, see Him continuously with the eyes of our understanding, and not just see Him, but reap great benefits from Him. This vision destroys all sin, demolishes all evil, and drives away everything bad. It gives birth to purity and dispassion, and bestows eternal life."
- St. Gregory Palamas

Saint Mary Orthodox Church - Cambridge, MA

 

[Philothei]

Fruit grow from seeds.

"I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow." - 1 Cor 3:6.

The Spirit and the words of the Word are inseparable.

My grandma used to say the word is like a seed... So if it is a good seed... it grows