Atheists go to hell even if they are good!?

[Skavau]

Then if you do not believe it why would it make any difference to you whether some others do or not?

Because I consider it an evil belief.

I have attended anti-Scientology protests because I believe it is evil. Whether or not I actually believed Dianetics was true had nothing to do with it.

 

[Doveaman]

I agree, but previously (post #594) you had said that there is no sin in
hell. If there are people in hell, but no sin in hell, I'm thinking those people
would be sinless at that point, in which case why would they need to be
there receiving endless torment?

Ya know, I may not agree with it, but I really do admire your logic and reason.

 

[Frumious]

I know this is mainstream Christian belief. The fact that we can even 'achieve' infractions is due to our own imperfection as mandated by God. Created sick and commanded to be well. God is ultimately responsible here either by letting us be 'infected' by original sin or by deliberately establishing us as imperfect moral agents.

This alone is a broad topic. And I will say that I respectfully disagree with your ideas here concerning God's motives and desires. And perhaps we can go over this in another thread.

That's an obscene standard. We both agree on our imperfection (whether created or not) but to insist that one can only be considered 'good' at no infractions is frankly, unrealistic.

I believe that is exactly the point. That we as people in and of ourselves are not good and are not perfect. (That's the point of the Law).

Whether it is eternal torment or eternal torture does not concern me remotely. Either is abhorrent.

I would encourage you to investigate more thoroughly, perhaps I could paint an example: You were told you could have 10 million dollars if you just walked next door, you chose to ignore that message and someone you know went and collected the money. Wouldn't you be tormented by the fact that it could have been yours? This is not the same as torture.

But before I go on, I don't quite know what you believe here: Do you believe that all Non-Christians will languish in eternal torment?

I think I summarize my view well here: Hell a Monstrous idea! - Page 42 - Christian Forums

 

[Skavau]

This alone is a broad topic. And I will say that I respectfully disagree with your ideas here concerning God's motives and desires. And perhaps we can go over this in another thread.

I have no idea of God's motives and desires in what he logically had to do for us to be imperfect. But alas, it can be discussed elsewhere.

I believe that is exactly the point. That we as people in and of ourselves are not good and are not perfect. (That's the point of the Law).

That is our 'curse' at birthright, which renders the point meaningless. Of course we could not live up to standards that we are not capable of.

I would encourage you to investigate more thoroughly, perhaps I could paint an example: You were told you could have 10 million dollars if you just walked next door, you chose to ignore that message and someone you know went and collected the money. Wouldn't you be tormented by the fact that it could have been yours? This is not the same as torture.

I might be. But my 'torment' would not be directed or allowed by another being and no-one would argue that it is or could be justified. You have to believe that God allows those who were not able to believe in him to be tormented.

There's a big difference.

 

[seashale76]

Here is a quote from an old Wikipedia article on the topic (that doesn’t seem to be around anymore) that I thought explained it pretty well: "For many ancient Christians, Hell was the same "place" as Heaven: living in the presence of God and directly experiencing God's love. Whether this was experienced as pleasure or torment depended on one's disposition towards God. St. Isaac of Syria wrote in Mystic Treatises: "... those who find themselves in Hell will be chastised by the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be! For those who understand that they have sinned against love, undergo greater suffering than those produced by the most fearful tortures. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart, which has sinned against love, is more piercing than any other pain. It is not right to say that the sinners in Hell are deprived of the love of God ... But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!" This ancient view is still the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church."

 

[Zaac]

You didn't think to bring it up until I pointed out that the Bible verse you posted smeared us all as liars and even then you didn't directly refer to us as liars until I harangued you about it.

Sounds like you thought you were setting a trap for me so you could report it. But like I said, if you had directly asked the question, you would have directly gotten the answer to the question. I know that I don't strike you as the type who is too timid to say that all atheists are liars.

No I'm not. I genuinely do not believe in a God(s).

You can browbeat it. The result is the same.

The direct preachments of evil.

If that's what you think God's word is, then it is , again, your CHOICE to do so.

'God' has not shown me anything.

He says in His word He has. I trust Him more than I trust you.

Except, as I have to keep reminding you: I don't believe that the 'lake of fire' exists and thus am not choosing anything.

Except that I have to keep reminding you that you don't have to believe it. The truth isn't going away because you don't want to believe it. So in CHOOSINg to not believe God's truth you are CHOOSING to send yourself to an eternal spot in the Lake of Fire

How is reminding you that I don't believe in a God, but recognise that some people attribute literature to a God at all idolatry or the world centering around me. A complete non-sequitor

.

Everything you seem to say is about what YOU want or what YOU refuse to do. You have established yourself as your own little god.

The existence of people is enough to disprove your doctrine as absurd. You literally have to deny reality to believe it.

I don't have a doctrine.

Non-sequitor. Does not follow. Supposing the above to remotely true then this must be asked: If I get drunk to the point where I die then did my decision to drink that night mean that I necessarily chose to die?

Another hypothetical.

I've been given a hateful and disturbing account of the gospel. One that I would never ever bow down to.

I would hope that you would't bow down to an account. God has never asked anyone to bow down to an account.

I don't believe there is a God and I don't believe that there is such a thing as 'God's truth'.

And thus in accordance with what God's word says, you and others who feel that way are liars because HE has shown you.

I imagine you do believe that, yes. Hence why you're an anti-intellectual.

My Father is THE Know It All. I go to Him for HIS understanding, thus I need not be an intellectual.

Then the 'Holy Spirit' is wrong - or what you are hearing is wrong. You are simply wrong about Muslims.

If a person professes to be a Muslim, he is rejecting Jesus Christ and will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.

No I didn't. I am convinced that I wrote it. I cannot just suspend my belief that I wrote it. That would be denial and I would still secretly believe it. I suggest you understand the nature of belief before going down this futile path.

Play with words all you want. You reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and you are CHOOSING to spend an eternity in the Lake of Fire.

I love how you say that with such sincerity and conviction. You just keep using all the fruits that intellectuals have given you that allow you to sit there at your computer deriding empiricism, rationalism and all knowledge per se in favour of blind faith.

How so? You are a solipsist.

I'm a follower of Jesus Christ.

But you believe those that end up in the 'lake of fire' deserving nothing less. You support it as moral and that is what is disgusting.

We deserve whatever a Holy God deems as just. If you find my alignment with GOD disgusting, it's because you first found what God says to be disgusting.

You are evil.

Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. Matthew 5:11-12

You claim to know that there is an 'all-knowing' and since you have denied the understanding and accuracy that knowledge and empiricism has given to us concerning reality you can have no way to examine whether or not you are truly right.

Yet after saying all that if you continue to reject Jesus Christ as your Lord in Savior in lieu of you, you wil still spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.

Is it breathtaking that people might choose to resist a tyrant?

You seem to have no problem being a slave to yourself and what you want.

 

[Zaac]

Yikes! This statement doesn't do much to encourage confidence in His power to save....

.

His power to save or do anything else is not affected by man's CHOOSING to go to hell.

 

[Frumious]

But love acts in two ways, as suffering of the reproved, and as joy in the blessed!" This ancient view is still the doctrine of the Eastern Orthodox Church."

I think this view was summarized well by St. Isaac of Syria (he too was Orthodox):

"chastized with the scourge of love. How cruel and bitter this torment of love will be. The sorrow which takes hold of the heart which has sinned against love is more piercing than any other pain."

 

[Zaac]

I would think that genuine repentance wouldn't need the threat of
punishment as it's motivation.

Then why repent as opposed to continuing to do what you do if there is no consequence? God has simply decided what the consequence will be.

Is fear of punishment the only reason to enter into a relationship with
the Lord? It seems I have seen other, more noble reasons for doing so
presented in the bible...

You have seen no one come into a relationship with God who has not recognized what they are being saved from. That's why He is called SAVIOR.

That judgment and penalty is supposedly what Jesus took upon
Himself in mankind's place.... unless the crucifixion didn't actually
happen. To hear some Christians tell it, Jesus' sacrifice -- if it happened
at all -- didn't really change anything

.

The gift of salvation is available to all. Not all choose to accept it.

 

[Skavau]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7556526-79/#post57479965

Sounds like you thought you were setting a trap for me so you could report it.

If I was going to do that, I would have already done so.

But like I said, if you had directly asked the question, you would have directly gotten the answer to the question. I know that I don't strike you as the type who is too timid to say that all atheists are liars.

Yes, you're quite the 'type'.

You can browbeat it. The result is the same.

I am not browbeating anything. It is simply so. I do not believe in a God(s).

If that's what you think God's word is, then it is , again, your CHOICE to do so.

It is absolutely my choice to believe that what you preach, whether you believe it ordained by God or otherwise as preachments of evil.

He says in His word He has. I trust Him more than I trust you.

Of course, since you reject empiricism and all fields of knowledge you have no way whatsoever of knowing that his 'word' exists. In any case, your belief again requires you to reject reality.

Except that I have to keep reminding you that you don't have to believe it. The truth isn't going away because you don't want to believe it.

That has nothing to do with anything. You cannot choose to go somewhere that you don't believe exists. It does not compute. It makes no sense. Non-Sequitor.

In addition, I never said that the truth (whatever that is) would go away on behalf of my disagreement.

So in CHOOSINg to not believe God's truth you are CHOOSING to send yourself to an eternal spot in the Lake of Fire

See above. Non-Sequitor.

Everything you seem to say is about what YOU want or what YOU refuse to do. You have established yourself as your own little god.

Again: Me reminding you that I don't believe in a God is not an example of overarching egoism. The only thing I could be 'guilty' of wanting is not wanting eternal torture and the only thing I could be accused of refusal of is the refusal to accept with no compromise the suggestion that I should accept eternal torture as moral. I will not.

I don't have a doctrine.

Fine. The existence of people is enough to disprove your beliefs as absurd. You literally have to deny reality to believe it.

Another hypothetical.

It is a relevant hypothetical. If you're going to make the stupid claim that people 'choose' things that they don't intend then it has to be put to you specifically just to show you how pathetic your claim really is.

I would hope that you would't bow down to an account. God has never asked anyone to bow down to an account.

And I wouldn't bow down to the God of your gospel either.

And thus in accordance with what God's word says, you and others who feel that way are liars because HE has shown you.

Except he hasn't and your insistence that he has in favour of my own words is a direct example of how you literally deny reality in favour your beliefs. The ultimate in solipsism.

My Father is THE Know It All. I go to Him for HIS understanding, thus I need not be an intellectual.

Except your understanding seems to be repeatedly wrong.

If a person professes to be a Muslim, he is rejecting Jesus Christ and will spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.

Yet they are not choosing to go to the lake of fire and so the stupid claim that they are is rendered incorrect.

Play with words all you want. You reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and you are CHOOSING to spend an eternity in the Lake of Fire.

This is not mere 'playing with words'. It is about you using the term belief to mean something that it is not. You misrepresent the nature of belief in order to suit your own bigotry. I am not choosing again to spend an eternity in the lake of fire. It is not possible to choose to go somewhere that you do not believe exists.

:lol:

Yeah, that's all you can say when confronted with your complete hypocrisy. You gorge yourself on the fruits of modern civilization and then when you feel self-satisfied enough talk with glee about your own contempt and antipathy towards it. How selfish of you sir.

I'm a follower of Jesus Christ.

A solipsistic one at that.

We deserve whatever a Holy God deems as just. If you find my alignment with GOD disgusting, it's because you first found what God says to be disgusting.

Then I would do. So be it.

Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. Matthew 5:11-12

Calling you evil is not persecution. It is borderline accurate fact on your character at this point. i suspect though that you were hoping for such a direct claim so that you could boost your potential in the afterlife, self-serving and infantile as it is.

Yet after saying all that if you continue to reject Jesus Christ as your Lord in Savior in lieu of you, you wil still spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.

I don't think you even understood what I said.

You seem to have no problem being a slave to yourself and what you want.

That's an oxymoron.

 

[Frumious]

I might be. But my 'torment' would not be directed or allowed by another being and no-one would argue that it is or could be justified. You have to believe that God allows those who were not able to believe in him to be tormented.

There's a big difference.

I would liken it more to the person who placed the money next door, or who told you where the money was, they provided for you a path that didn't lead to torment; however by your own choices that's where you ended up.

To be honest, if hell is your primary bone of contention, my thoughts are that it's a place that is yet to occur, and it's anyone's guess as to what exactly is the experience there. Even among those who profess faith in Christ there are a number of views and I would suspect that at least one would appeal to your instincts. Universalism through Christ, Universalism through cleansing in the Lake of Fire, Annihilationism, Eternal Torment from the presence of God's love, all the way to torture as described in Dante's Inferno.

My view is that your desire to see that no one be punished/tortured/tormented for eternity can be attributed to what I would define as goodness. 2 Peter 3:9 says The Lord... ...is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

 

[Zaac]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7556526-79/#post57479965

If I was going to do that, I would have already done so.

Yes, you're quite the 'type'.

I am not browbeating anything. It is simply so. I do not believe in a God(s).

It is absolutely my choice to believe that what you preach, whether you believe it ordained by God or otherwise as preachments of evil.

Of course, since you reject empiricism and all fields of knowledge you have no way whatsoever of knowing that his 'word' exists. In any case, your belief again requires you to reject reality.

That has nothing to do with anything. You cannot choose to go somewhere that you don't believe exists. It does not compute. It makes no sense. Non-Sequitor.

In addition, I never said that the truth (whatever that is) would go away on behalf of my disagreement.

See above. Non-Sequitor.

Again: Me reminding you that I don't believe in a God is not an example of overarching egoism. The only thing I could be 'guilty' of wanting is not wanting eternal torture and the only thing I could be accused of refusal of is the refusal to accept with no compromise the suggestion that I should accept eternal torture as moral. I will not.

Fine. The existence of people is enough to disprove your beliefs as absurd. You literally have to deny reality to believe it.

It is a relevant hypothetical. If you're going to make the stupid claim that people 'choose' things that they don't intend then it has to be put to you specifically just to show you how pathetic your claim really is.

And I wouldn't bow down to the God of your gospel either.

Except he hasn't and your insistence that he has in favour of my own words is a direct example of how you literally deny reality in favour your beliefs. The ultimate in solipsism.

Except your understanding seems to be repeatedly wrong.

Yet they are not choosing to go to the lake of fire and so the stupid claim that they are is rendered incorrect.

This is not mere 'playing with words'. It is about you using the term belief to mean something that it is not. You misrepresent the nature of belief in order to suit your own bigotry. I am not choosing again to spend an eternity in the lake of fire. It is not possible to choose to go somewhere that you do not believe exists.

Yeah, that's all you can say when confronted with your complete hypocrisy. You gorge yourself on the fruits of modern civilization and then when you feel self-satisfied enough talk with glee about your own contempt and antipathy towards it. How selfish of you sir.

A solipsistic one at that.

Then I would do. So be it.

Calling you evil is not persecution. It is borderline accurate fact on your character at this point. i suspect though that you were hoping for such a direct claim so that you could boost your potential in the afterlife, self-serving and infantile as it is.

I don't think you even understood what I said.

That's an oxymoron.

Yet in all that verbiage, you rejecting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is still YOU CHOOSING to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.

 

[Skavau]

Yet in all that verbiage, you rejecting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is still YOU CHOOSING to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.

Except it isn't and you have chosen to not argue how it is, or are too incompetent to make that argument.

 

[Skavau]

I would liken it more to the person who placed the money next door, or who told you where the money was, they provided for you a path that didn't lead to torment; however by your own choices that's where you ended up.

But that would be an inaccurate observation of God, who could give everyone 10 million dollars if he so chose to (ignoring the economical consequences of that).

It is also worth adding that the accurate situation of most people is that they don't know that there are 10 million dollars around the corner, or in a certain location. They have no reason to look and it is highly unfair to them, in in an afterlife (going back to what you are contrasting it with) to undergo eternal torment for it.

To be honest, if hell is your primary bone of contention, my thoughts are that it's a place that is yet to occur, and it's anyone's guess as to what exactly is the experience there. Even among those who profess faith in Christ there are a number of views and I would suspect that at least one would appeal to your instincts. Universalism through Christ, Universalism through cleansing in the Lake of Fire, Annihilationism, Eternal Torment from the presence of God's love, all the way to torture as described in Dante's Inferno.

Yeah I know. I have no problem with Universalism. I have less of a problem with Annihilationism but every problem with eternal torture.

My view is that your desire to see that no one be punished/tortured/tormented for eternity can be attributed to what I would define as goodness. 2 Peter 3:9 says The Lord... ...is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Actually, it is in part my opposition to totalitarianism and fascism. It is my political opposition put into the supernatural realm.

 

[BleedingHeart]

But they may think there are “saved” by Darwin. Without Darwin’s theory of evolution the support for atheism is seriously diminished.
They just think we are sick and delusional, right?
No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Science. Science is to be used, not to be served.

1. Not really. Even in the absence of all the scientific knowledge we have there's no reason to believe the claim of theists. It's magic.
2. See the thread about in this subforum about what atheists think of Christians.

 

[BleedingHeart]

Yet in all that verbiage, you rejecting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior is still YOU CHOOSING to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.

Do you hear that sound Skavau? That's the sound of you wasting your time on this guy.

 

[Doveaman]

Ah, I see. Not surprised about the despised Christianity part, to be honest.

What!!?

Are we not your offspring? Who despises their own offspring?

 

[razeontherock]

Then represent it correctly!

You have a way of asking HUGE questions concisely. This is perhaps the clearest illustration of that I've seen. Your recent 3(?) posts could be fodder for probably 5 threads, 100 pages each. And this sub-forum isn't really the venue for presenting the (latest) Covenant btw G-d and man.

We could go there, but don't expect an easy quick answer.

 

[razeontherock]

We all share that desire to be free of shackles and live by our own interests and standards. Evil is the willful infringement of that

Good definition of sin, and sinner.

No definition of sins though

Yes, these are struggles we all go through ...

 

[razeontherock]

That's because many are called but only few are chosen.

I forgot to mention that whether you are a universalist or an annihilationist or an eternal tormentist, these all fall under the non-essentials. So hopefully we'll all meet together on that great day and have supper.

You could add to that list, a corrective purging process. Ist.