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I would also add that, having done time as a Christian for 45 years, I have a very good grasp of Christian theory. And I'm very thankful that it is, indeed, just a theory!You have already made a mistake in substantiating your assessment of the christian theory, much more in your following evaluations.
But who says the entirety of Christianity is contained in the Bible?
Briareos, do you believe Jesus saved mankind or do you believe belief saves mankind?
That someone is me - I didn't infer it from anyone else. I myself am the one claiming that the purpose behind Christ's sacrifice, just like any other aspect of reality, stands regardless of what we believe about it.
I would also add that, having done time as a Christian for 45 years, I have a very good grasp of Christian theory. And I'm very thankful that it is, indeed, just a theory!
Philosoraptor,
AHAH! Now I see it.
Ok, you responded with the intent of saying 'well maybe the bible isn't all that is relevant to christianity" when I tried to force all discussion of biblical teaching to be confined to accurate biblical teaching.
I say it simply doesn't matter what something else says, an accurate assessment of biblical teaching needs to actually be... an accurate assessment of biblical teaching. What some other source of insight may be simply doesn't affect what the bible says. And what the bible says... is the discussion.
Well he wasn't really advocating a belief, he was criticizing what he believes to be the typical christian belief and what he thinks the bible teaches. That being that the bible teaches or that christians believe Salvation is primarily of our creation. His conclusion that the bible or that people here think that is in error.I'm inclined to agree with you on the points of principle, however I can see the point I think chaela was originally making.
We could understand the sacrifice of Christ as being universal, regardless of our beliefs, and only negated by active rejection (i.e. people who were Christians and turned away from it have more to answer for than people who never had the chance to become Christians) or we could see the faith in the sacrifice as the active ingredient in salvation rather than the sacrifice itself (in which case, Islamic Faith may be just as justified as Christianity).
Either/or is a fair critique that we don't really have a watertight answer to. I know there's that whole "nobody can come to the father except through me" thing, however there's also room to interpret that as an extension of the allegory in "I am the way, the truth and the life". We've got issues pinning down exactly what "accurate teaching" is when it comes to the bible. (Personally I'm doubtful if we can ever hope to rise above an "informed reading" from scriptures)
ajtoce answered this question: "Jesus said that you must be reborn to enter, or even see, the kingdom of heaven. You must understand this: Jesus didn't come to make "bad" people be "good". He came to give life to spiritually dead people. (all of us are spiritually dead in Adam)". We can explain this better for you if you want to know more about it.
Don't worry I won't castigate!!Well that isn't a fair question, kind of like asking me if I have stopped beating my wife yet and I have to say yes or no. Neither of the choices you give me completely represent my beliefs and neither relieve me of an immediate castigation by you if I choose either of them so I will not answer youBriareos, do you believe Jesus saved mankind or do you believe belief saves mankind?
If my assertion isn't true (that Christ's sacrifice stands apart from what we believe), then this can only mean that my previous paraphrase of Christian belief/Bible teaching (in post #22) was indeed accurate.Ok that's cool. I will only say that such is not what the bible teaches. I was under the impression that you were pursuing fault in that idea and saying that I said that.That someone is me - I didn't infer it from anyone else. I myself am the one claiming that the purpose behind Christ's sacrifice, just like any other aspect of reality, stands regardless of what we believe about it.
Give them what?But your saying that he came to give them spiritually,
No, it means imparting salvation, goodness should follow but it is not what is imparted thought is in effect a ripple in the water.but corrected me if im wrong but that means teaching them to be good
No, to enter heaven you need be saved, something else entirely that is not completely dependent upon a persons goodness. To be heard by God you do not need to be good.because to be seen by god you need to be good
and then you see heaven. Also more detail please?
Don't worry I won't castigate!!Sorry -- let me readjust the question:
Do you believe that it is Jesus alone who saves, or belief in Jesus that saves? In other words, which do you think is the active ingredient in this process?
If my assertion isn't true (that Christ's sacrifice stands apart from what we believe), then this can only mean that my previous paraphrase of Christian belief/Bible teaching (in post #22) was indeed accurate.
But your saying that he came to give them spiritually, but corrected me if im wrong but that means teaching them to be good because to be seen by god you need to be good and then you see heaven. Also more detail please?
I'm not sure what you're saying here. What are the "grounding reasons and details" you mention?If my assertion isn't true (that Christ's sacrifice stands apart from what we believe), then this can only mean that my previous paraphrase of Christian belief/Bible teaching (in post #22) was indeed accurate.
No it doesn't, the belief that it does is derived from ignoring several details on the subject, an ignorance of several key teachings. Your belief that Jesus' power to save stands independent of our decisions or beliefs is the only alternative to the belief that our decisions stand independent of or is the primary factor in salvation is not correct. Not only are both teachings wrong according to scripture, so is your method of choosing between them. It is ripping two ideas completely free of their grounding reasons and details and placing them as opposites and the only choices. They are both incorrect to scripture, and as such they are not the only choices we have.
Not only Paul, Jesus too.I'm afraid that's something that's specific to Protestantism (and, as far as I'm aware, even then only to a few of the more extreme sects) which is based upon their interpretation of St. Paul's letters.
That was Jesus' idea, not Protestants:They believe that only Faith in Christ is the route to salvation, and erego, no faith, no salvation.
Except that that is just an opinion. Unfortunately we are not saved by opinions, no matter whose opinion it is.Most world religions have a different view. The Catholic Church, for example, states in it's Catechism (847)
"Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation"
Let Jesus answer that for you:So how is this just that if a christain who would lets say killed someone and asked for forgiveness would go to heaven and an atheist who has been good all there life, has never put themself first go to tell?
Please, answers?
Well that's a pretty crappy thing to say... strawman all day long. I see it wasn't really an argument at all but hey man, be fair.
The OP spoke of biblical teaching, so the biblical teaching is actually relevant and doesn't seem to be being discussed much. It's only to fair to discuss the reality of the teaching concerned, it is also needed in order to be accurate in your assessment.
You have to understand that evil is our default state and hell is our default destiny. What is needed is someone to save us from our default state and destiny.
Why? Why are we default evil?
So how is this just that if a christain who would lets say killed someone and asked for forgiveness would go to heaven and an atheist who has been good all there life, has never put themself first go to tell?
Please, answers?
What strawman? If you don't belong to the right club have all the right beliefs you don't go to heaven, which part of that is wrong?
That is still a nod to thought crime. It is also as it happens to be an untrue statement, a smear against all atheists and an allegedly omniscient superpower should know why atheists don't conform.citizenthom said:It is not an issue of an inability to recognize God, but a refusal to do so.
You have absolutely no way of knowing this is true. It certainly is not for me and is not and has never ever been for any atheist, anti-theist or humanist minded person I have ever met.Usually that is rooted in a refusal to admit there is a higher authority than oneself, or than some other concept to which one is loyal.
What's your explanation for its substantial growth in particular across Europe right now? Some countries in Europe could be considered to have a majority of non-religious 'adherents' now and those countries are amongst some of the best on the planet as well. I also look at the census when it comes back here with specific interest as I expect Christianity may have had some significant decay here from 10 years ago.There's a reason atheists are, and always have been, rare as a percentage of the human population: the existence of a higher power is in-built knowledge in us all.
Great. So you admit you do support thought crime. Worse, you support thought crime that holds eternal torture for those who don't conform.And yes, a refusal to seek out the identity and nature of that higher power--especially when such knowledge is readily available--is itself wrong.
Born wretched and commanded to be perfect. Our 'sin' is a consequence of our imperfection, and if you're so inclined to think so our fallen nature. We were either designed imperfect or allowed to fall into corruption. It is to say that we cannot help to do otherwise than good at some point in our lives and this a burden imposed upon every human. You say that this necessarily demands eternal torture as a response if we don't accept the redemption of Jesus Christ? A pardon that absolves us of our moral responsibility that would otherwise apparently doom us.But that is not what dooms us; our sin dooms us.
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