Atheists go to hell even if they are good!?

[Skavau]

I do realize it is merely symbolic to you. And I don't pretend to know how G-d may view that. Consistent with what I said before about (the non-existent) someone who's only sin was thought, if you actually take no action based on this train of thought,

Why would I take action on this? What are you talking about? You have one other guy in this thread, Zaac, who has literally said that the only thing that matters to him is God and admitted that morality to him is nothing to but never-ending obedience towards God and all that necessitates. He also counts himself amongst those who makes excuses for someone who would impose eternal torture on all Non-Christians for the 'crime' of thought.

What do you suppose he might do based on his beliefs?

it might prove to be just an important stage of growth. I do urge you to outgrow this stage though! There are at least some points in your logic that are not sound. Even if I can't furnish you with a superior replacement for your flaws, please do examine the weaknesses I pinpoint. I realize it is an uncomfortable position; for me, too.

My position in this thread is based squarely that God imposing eternal torture upon all Non-Christians for what they think as immoral, monstrous and unjustifiable. To put it bluntly, I would not worship this concept of God solely for the reasons that I would not worship Hitler, or Stalin.

 

[razeontherock]

I'm completely familiar with the traditional arguments against a benevolent God concerning natural evil. If you believe that God is willing to do evil (as you do) then I have no quarrel with you. You concede the point.

But how could anyone say otherwise? Even w/o the admittedly obscure reference I showed you pinpointing the detail, just the concept of Judgment Day!? Yeah, that's all about "doing evil" to somebody; only those that deserve it. (And not on the basis of what you're arguing here, belief, thought crime, etc., but WORKS. That is still part of the Gospel) Whoever is Judged / condemned, will feel that is immoral. Right?

 

[Skavau]

But how could anyone say otherwise? Even w/o the admittedly obscure reference I showed you pinpointing the detail, just the concept of Judgment Day!? Yeah, that's all about "doing evil" to somebody; only those that deserve it. (And not on the basis of what you're arguing here, belief, thought crime, etc., but WORKS. That is still part of the Gospel) Whoever is Judged / condemned, will feel that is immoral. Right?

Not my problem. I just ask you now that you admit that God is culpable for natural evil why I should worship him?

 

[Philothei]

First of all Paul says that the ones who are outside of the faith God will judge... Not us. Second it is not our beeswax anyhow... The ONLY responsibility we have is to preach the Gospel... The ones who have ears will definately hear. It is a choice.... That is all we know. Ah...and that we have to try 3 times to talk to someone...then we have to dust off our shoes and get to the next door...

Also belief has to do with the heart as well the mind.... So if this thread IMHO is about who gets to heaven...Hmmm.. I have to say that although Christ says I am the way and the truth... still we are not to interfere with that individual commitment that even the so called atheist have in their lives. Because if someone lives according to an ethic code that is indeed something positive for God.... Again it has to do with how we are living our lives and if we fail to believe in God then the second best would be to care for our fellow man at least ... My 0.2 cents here.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

No, you've provided more than enough foolishness already. You simply fail to apply critical thought to consider the ramifications of what you espouse.

Once again, the definition of freewill isn't my own. It's the accepted definition. used by generations by countless philosophers. You're lack of understanding doesn't affect that at all.

Here's a book that I think would really help you:

The Oxford Handbook of Free Will (Oxford Handbooks)

You can find it on Amazon.com

You're welcome.

 

[Tergle]

I do realize it is merely symbolic to you. And I don't pretend to know how G-d may view that. Consistent with what I said before about (the non-existent) someone who's only sin was thought, if you actually take no action based on this train of thought, it might prove to be just an important stage of growth. I do urge you to outgrow this stage though! There are at least some points in your logic that are not sound. Even if I can't furnish you with a superior replacement for your flaws, please do examine the weaknesses I pinpoint. I realize it is an uncomfortable position; for me, too.

If you like research, take a string of pearls, and cast them into a fenced in group of pigs. After a short time period retrieve them and see what happened to the pearls.

Science and the Bible get along well.

 

[razeontherock]

Why would I take action on this?

Mostly because these thoughts of yours have a lot of energy in them, and you have a lot of time to let them fester. In that case, sooner or later they will result in action. You have an option to think through any flaws in that thinking, and evolve it into something better.

My position in this thread is based squarely that God imposing eternal torture upon all Non-Christians for what they think as immoral, monstrous and unjustifiable. To put it bluntly, I would not worship this concept of God solely for the reasons that I would not worship Hitler, or Stalin.

And I have agreed with you on that point. You'll also notice you've made several other points I've disagreed with you on, so I would be directing your attention in that direction.

 

[Skavau]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7556526-69/#post57477362

Mostly because these thoughts of yours have a lot of energy in them, and you have a lot of time to let them fester. In that case, sooner or later they will result in action. You have an option to think through any flaws in that thinking, and evolve it into something better.

Well you can put your fears at rest, because I have no intention of taking any action on them beyond talking about them. Certainly I would cause no action in the real world beyond arguing against them in a real world setting.

Though again: What about Zaac?

And I have agreed with you on that point. You'll also notice you've made several other points I've disagreed with you on, so I would be directing your attention in that direction.

The other points you have disagreed with me on are not relevant to the argument then. To change my view on this you would have to justify how eternal torture for thought-crime is moral and necessary. If you can't, then I will continue despising the concept of God that accompanies it.

 

[razeontherock]

Not my problem. I just ask you now that you admit that God is culpable for natural evil why I should worship him?

Well surely there is not enough material here to begin to address that. I could share with you what conclusion I came to based on my findings, when and why; but those things pertain to me, and won't suffice as evidence to you. You do have the integrity to require your own answers, I will give you that much! Please receive the correction that you have falsely assumed that all believers must forfeit that. In fact, my personal experience is if that is forfeited, one does not have what the Bible calls Faith. It is the person with conviction like you demonstrate that will arrive at true Faith, when presented with the facts. There is no other logical conclusion.

 

[Tergle]

First of all Paul says that the ones who are outside of the faith God will judge... Not us. Second it is not our beeswax anyhow... The ONLY responsibility we have is to preach the Gospel... The ones who have ears will definately hear. It is a choice.... That is all we know. Ah...and that we have to try 3 times to talk to someone...then we have to dust off our shoes and get to the next door...

Also belief has to do with the heart as well the mind.... So if this thread IMHO is about who gets to heaven...Hmmm.. I have to say that although Christ says I am the way and the truth... still we are not to interfere with that individual commitment that even the so called atheist have in their lives. Because if someone lives according to an ethic code that is indeed something positive for God.... Again it has to do with how we are living our lives and if we fail to believe in God then the second best would be to care for our fellow man at least ... My 0.2 cents here.

Have you EVER come across an athiest that lived, acted, and behaved like a person that follows Christ in his heart, mind and deeds?

I haven't.

(All I have on me cash-wise, is $172.62.)

 

[Skavau]

Well surely there is not enough material here to begin to address that. I could share with you what conclusion I came to based on my findings, when and why; but those things pertain to me, and won't suffice as evidence to you. You do have the integrity to require your own answers, I will give you that much! Please receive the correction that you have falsely assumed that all believers must forfeit that. In fact, my personal experience is if that is forfeited, one does not have what the Bible calls Faith. It is the person with conviction like you demonstrate that will arrive at true Faith, when presented with the facts. There is no other logical conclusion.

I never said that you had not considered it yourself. I don't think that Zaac has ever considered it - which is why he thinks as he does.

But there it is again, I can't be bought or convinced to worship a being that I hold as evil. It just contradicts everything I hold to be moral.

 

[razeontherock]

we have to try 3 times to talk to someone...then we have to dust off our shoes and get to the next door...

Your post has confirmed much of what I've been saying, but this part here about 3X. What is that based on? I am not good at that part

 

[Zaac]

No, but you were seemingly reluctantly to come out and openly say what you thought.

I'm not seemingly anything. You should be well aware that I don't have a problem saying what I intend to say.

Zaac, this is really simple stuff. I am both a humanist and and an atheist and therefore not lying.

Okay. Then this is really simple stuff. They call it the comparative property.

If Skavau=atheist and atheist=liar in accordance with God's word, then Skavau =liar in accordance with God's word.

It doesn't come across as vitriolic. It comes across as nightmarish.

The Lake of Fire is what should come across as nightmarish to you.

I will again re-assert reality: I have been given only literature and claims based on that literature. I don't believe that said literature is actually 'God's truth' and my rejection is based on my understanding which is necessarily not motivated by choice.

You're an atheist. Why would you believe there is a truth for something you don't think exists? For it to not be "God's truth" would mean that you think there is a God who has a truth.

But they do worship what they view to be the current understanding of God. They do believe that they are going to heaven. How can you peddle the utterly ridiculous claim that they are choosing hell when their entire belief system is there so they can enter heaven?

Because the word of God says otherwise.18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness Romans 1:18

The truth is supressed in lieu of our own wickedness. And thus at man's own CHOOSING, he spends eternity in the lake of Fire.

I will again re-iterate what is actually true: I don't believe that a 'creator' exists and I don't believe that there is a 'lake of fire'.

And I will reiterate, you don't have to anymore than Muslims believe that Jesus Christ is God. The result of not believeing His truth in both instances is the same: eternity in the Lake of Fire.

First of all, whether or not my opposition to atrocity has any real world implications does nothing to dampen the validity behind it in the slightest. Secondly, I repeat again: I do not believe that the 'lake of fire' actually exists and thus cannot be choosing to go to it.

Overall, you get no say so. You reject Jesus Christ as Lord and savior and your eternity will be spent in the Lake of Fire.

I know this is what you believe. I know that your morality is merely a front for your unquestioning perpetual obedience.

What you know is that you heard God's truth and still choose to reject Him and thus CHOOSE to spend an eternity in the Lake of Fire.

Do you know anything about Islam at all? Muslims believe that the reward for their devotion is Jannah. It is the height of ignorance to believe that they are choosing to go to hell.

the only thing that I need to know about Islam to say that those who adhere to it will spend an eternity in the Lake of Fire is that they reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

You haven't said that belief is choice, but you necessarily have implied it and you are wrong when you do so.

Here you go: Muslims CHOOSE to believe what they do and thus CHOOSE to spend an eternity in the Lake of Fire. Just as you CHOOSE to believe what you do and in that rejection of Jesus Christ CHOOSE to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.

Except the demographics have never ever suggested this at all.

The only demographics that matter are the ones God is keeping in the Book of Life. As he says those who seek the truth shall find it, then it is the truth.

Except that is logically impossible. I can't choose to go somewhere that I don't believe exists. Do you know anything about logic whatsoever?

You rest in your logic. Logic isn't gonna keep you from spending eternity in the Lake of Fire.

No, you will find that it is your worldview. Your worldview makes excuses and apologies for evil done to man at all times so long as it has God's brand.

Gosh I make no apologies for what a Holy God does. that would be laughable.

There are then. You've just conceded it. You are the epitomy of evil.

I haven't conceded anything I haven't always said. God is numero uno. He gets the first say and the last.

And if what everyone else said does not align with what God says, what they say gets thrown out. And if that makes me evil, then I'd much rather be in God's presence by your definition of evil than be in the Lake of Fire with you under your definition of goodness or morality.

Whether or not you deal with them or not is not the point. If God was to decree that murder was right, you would have to accept it, and you have to accept it with glee and righteousness.

God says what He says. You don't accept that so there's no need for me to enter a discussion of "what ifs" with you.

I think humanity is the basis of civilization. Humanism is an ethical ideology, not a worldview on reality.

You think. I KNOW Who the basis of civilization is because God tells me so.

I suppose I was mistaken to believe that you could even hold an elementary understanding of the absolute evil that your world-view proposes. You would kill your own parents and your own kids if you felt that God told you to. They mean nothing to you.

26 “If you want to be my disciple, you must hate everyone else by comparison—your father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple. 27 And if you do not carry your own cross and follow me, you cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26-27

Proud of your shackles, I see.

I'm proud of the shackles for Him that He allows me to wear because He first wore shckles for me.

 

[razeontherock]

Once again, the definition of freewill isn't my own. It's the accepted definition.

Never said it was your own definition. Here is what I'm saying:

"the foolishness of God is wiser than men"

You merely prove the point.

 

[razeontherock]

If you like research, take a string of pearls, and cast them into a fenced in group of pigs. After a short time period retrieve them and see what happened to the pearls.

Science and the Bible get along well.

Pilothei seems to have this message for me as well

 

[Tergle]

Once there was just a thought about Mustard Gas in the mind of a man.

And shortly thereafter all hell was loosed on mankind.

Marxism came from the thoughts of a man. And shortly after that came the tens of millions killed by its implementation on society.

 

[Zaac]

Again it has to do with how we are living our lives and if we fail to believe in God then the second best would be to care for our fellow man at least ... My 0.2 cents here.

Second best still gets a person spending eternity in the Lake of Fire. we're to point them to the One Who saves, not the second best.

 

[Philothei]

My position in this thread is based squarely that God imposing eternal torture upon all Non-Christians for what they think as immoral, monstrous and unjustifiable. To put it bluntly, I would not worship this concept of God solely for the reasons that I would not worship Hitler, or Stalin.

This indeed presents an anthropomorphic God. But God is above our logic and our view. I am not saying that God will not be just...He will definately be just and will put the ones who do not know Him and never wanted to have a relationship with Him or aknowledge Him far away from Him. That is IMHO hell the absence of God who is all love and all good. God is the source of all love and goodness. Hell is the absence of that love and life. It is a desolate place. The reason God wants us to be with Him and aknowledge Him is not selfish on the contrary it is love that is His motive for all this. If we voluntarily reject Him...how is God chosing for us? He is not hell is a man's choice with his rejection of God. If we deny his existance then we reject his love thus we decided to live this life and not to have eternal... Thus we prefer the short life on earth and we deny the fact we are also souls and we prefer to deny our true calling as creation of God with a soul and thus we deny our life eternal. God is there and awaits for us....Man's inability though to believe in God can or cannot be overcomed? We do not know ...some atheists are only agnostics and they just do not know if there is heaven or hell or a God... Would God take into account as to why they did not believe in Him? This is a tough question and I do not think that any of us can answer as we are NOT God. God will judge and see our level of belief or disbelief in Him. Some do have impaired "perceptions" of what is God or about the spiritual world. I still believe in he love and mercy of God for His creation....

 

[Philothei]

Second best still gets a person spending eternity in the Lake of Fire. we're to point them to the One Who saves, not the second best.

I am not God thus I cannot judge :o

 

[Zaac]

I am not God thus I cannot judge :o

Sure you can judge. You just made a judgment with that statement. One of the biggest misconceptions people make is that God has told them to not judge.

God's word makes clear that we are indeed to judge. He just expects us to judge righteously as opposed to hypocritically.

If a person says, I reject Jesus Christ, then you should be able to tell that person that in accordance with God's word, if you die in this rejection, you will spend an eternity in the Lake of Fire.