Atheists debates - is it worth it?

2PhiloVoid

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Nope, it just means actually reading the bible and not exigesic hermeneutic apologies for all the numerous biblical contradictions and inconsistencies and scientific untruths.

I have read the Bible, Mitty, and just in case you didn't know, Hermeneutics isn't Christian Apologetics. They're two different fields of study, even though those who are educated would know that Hermeneutics helps in understanding what is written in the Bible, even if and when a person doesn't believe in its contents.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Are you seriously not getting it? Jesus in the Old Testament gives NO second chances to people working on a Saturday (See Numbers 15). And then, Jesus comes to this earth, meek and mild. Nobody punished for sins. Forgives adulteries, doesn't care about Sabbath observance, even changes his own dietary laws! And then, goes back up and boils with wrath?

So, where is the real Jesus?

:rolleyes:
 
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Mitty

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I'm afraid your not getting it. Jesus didn't create the Mosaic law, Moses did. God gave us the ten commandments. I truly understand the confusion between the old and new testament. The Gnostic Christians believed that the God of the old testament wasn't the same as the God of the new because they couldn't rationalize the differences.
As Christian we believe we are to love all people, when you look at what Jesus taught primarily the sermon on the mount, (Mathew 5) it is pretty hard to argue against his teachings.
Christianity hangs on one main issue, the empty grave, meaning the resurrection.
The bible is a collections of writings spanning over a 1500 year period by people that had little or no scientific knowledge or understanding compared to what we have today, so yes you are going to find scientific errors. The history of the Israeli people that is documented in the old testament does seem to allow slavery, genocide, and some pretty barbaric practices that I have difficulty reconciling within myself. I have seen genocide first hand My Lai, Vietnam and it is horrible to say the least.
The bible literalist will insist that the bible is without error, coming from a literal reading they are wrong in my opinion. We must remember who gave us the original cannon, the Catholic Church and I'm sure Constantine had his fingers in the creation of the new testament, at least the early versions. Then when we look at how the Catholic Church attempted to control people by distorting what Christ taught it is no wonder there are problematic areas.

What non believers can't understand is the personal relationship, if you are touched by the Holy Spirit you may walk away, but you will never deny the existence of God because you will have felt his existence. No one can give you that, only the Holy Spirit, and if you don't seek Him, he most likely won't bother you. Some people have been given a glimpse of existence beyond the grave, and most are forever changed and many have encounters with Jesus.
I suppose the only reason I waist my time on debates like this is I do deeply care about non believers because I was there at one time.
That's because biblical morality is just man-made and changes as society changes. The ten commandments are obviously just man-made and weren't given to Moses by a stone-engraving talking bush, given that they didn't apply to Abraham et al and their ancestors, since it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham to have sex with his sister and commit adultery with Hagar, or for Abraham to kill his son as a blood sacrifice, or for Cain(an) to kill his brother Abel.

And why is the NT god a different god to the OT gods, and what happened to the OT gods?

I have seen genocide first hand My Lai, Vietnam and it is horrible to say the least.
And should those who committed those war crimes and crimes against humanity have been tried by an International Court and executed along with the senior army officers who ordered that butchering and like the Japanese and Nazis who committed similar crimes instead of being just white-washed, given that Vietnam was no threat at all to the Yanks when they attacked the Vietnamese after they wanted to nuke the Vietnamese and bomb China to ironically support French colonialism?
 
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Mitty

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I have read the Bible, Mitty, and just in case you didn't know, Hermeneutics isn't Christian Apologetics. They're two different fields of study, even though those who are educated would know that Hermeneutics helps in understanding what is written in the Bible, even if and when a person doesn't believe in its contents.
Either way, I'd prefer that a god drops around to explain the bible instead of those trying to sell after-death salvation.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Either way, I'd prefer that a god drops around to explain the bible instead of those trying to sell after-death salvation.

Ok. Well, stand in line, then ... I think we've all been holding that preference, so it's not like you're somehow overly different in this cognitive, epistemological department than I am. There is a reason that I'm an Existentialist Christian. There's also a reason that in my own cognitive journeys in my life, I started with Carl Sagan and not with Jesus.
 
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RBPerry

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That's because biblical morality is just man-made and changes as society changes. The ten commandments are obviously just man-made and weren't given to Moses by a stone-engraving talking bush, given that they didn't apply to Abraham et al and their ancestors, since it wasn't morally wrong for Abraham to have sex with his sister and commit adultery with Hagar, or for Abraham to kill his son as a blood sacrifice, or for Cain(an) to kill his brother Abel.


And why is the NT god a different god to the OT gods, and what happened to the OT gods?

And should those who committed those war crimes and crimes against humanity have been tried by an International Court and executed along with the senior army officers who ordered that butchering and like the Japanese and Nazis who committed similar crimes instead of being just white-washed, given that Vietnam was no threat at all to the Yanks when they attacked the Vietnamese after they wanted to nuke the Vietnamese and bomb China to ironically support French colonialism?

Where is the proof of your opinions?
As for Vietnam, don't even try to talk about something you know nothing about.
 
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Mitty

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Where is the proof of your opinions?
Where does the bible say that the ten commandments applied to Abraham et al and their ancestors, and that it was immoral for Abraham to have sex with his sister and commit adultery with Hagar and to kill his son as a blood sacrifice and for Cain(an) to kill his brother Abel? If not, then even Blind Freddy can see that the ten commandments etc were obviously just man-made with a bit of supernatural embellishment added to enforce them.
As for Vietnam, don't even try to talk about something you know nothing about.
But I do know about Vietnam since I was there 50 years ago in Vung Tau and know that the Vietnamese were no threat to your country when they were attacked after the French colonialists were kicked out, and that the war crimes at My Lai etc were just swept under the carpet instead of being dealt with in an international court. My Lai Massacre - Wikipedia At least the goodies won and the baddies just slunk back home to build a wall as a remembrance to stupidity, even though those lessons still haven't been learnt in Afghanistan & Iraq etc.
 
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BigV

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I'm afraid your not getting it. Jesus didn't create the Mosaic law, Moses did.

WOW. Amazing theology there, buddy.

Deut. 4:5 See, I have taught you decrees and laws as the Lord my God commanded me, so that you may follow them in the land you are entering to take possession of it.

But, Moses was probably mistaken. So, where else is Moses mistaken?

Matthew 15: 3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’

Where did God say that? I thought it was Moses talking, no?

I truly understand the confusion between the old and new testament. The Gnostic Christians believed that the God of the old testament wasn't the same as the God of the new because they couldn't rationalize the differences.

Confusion is also caused by Jesus, who tried to distance himself from his law in John's Gospel

John 8:17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’?

If Jesus returns today, perhaps he would deny parts of the New Testament also?
As Christian we believe we are to love all people, when you look at what Jesus taught primarily the sermon on the mount, (Mathew 5) it is pretty hard to argue against his teachings.

The teachings to love all people are pretty much nonsensical. How are you going to love Osama Ben Laden? By killing him to stop more terrorist acts. Which is the same as not loving him.


I have seen genocide first hand My Lai, Vietnam and it is horrible to say the least.

Well, I'd argue that eternal Hell created by loving Jesus is much worse.
 
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Mitty

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Well, I'd argue that eternal Hell created by loving Jesus is much worse.
And particularly for all remarried divorcees who don't remain celibate or cut off their members and throw them away (Matthew 5:27-30 Mark 10:11-12).
 
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RBPerry

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Were you in My Lai during the massacre of the women and children, or after?

It isn't important when I was there, shouldn't even mentioned it, the point was that there is no excuse for it. No one should ever experience anything like that. As for the Aussies, they were useless as the arvn's were.
 
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RBPerry

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WOW. Amazing theology there, buddy.

The teachings to love all people are pretty much nonsensical. How are you going to love Osama Ben Laden? By killing him to stop more terrorist acts. Which is the same as not loving him.

You mistake protecting the American people as a lack of love. No Ben Laden was dispatched for that very reason you mentioned, he started it, our people are finishing it. The reality is what America is doing today is protecting a lot of people. No one wants war, but when it is brought to your door step you either fight or die, it isn't about love, it is about survival.
 
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Mitty

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It isn't important when I was there, shouldn't even mentioned it, the point was that there is no excuse for it. No one should ever experience anything like that.
It certainly is important if you were at My Lai when the women and children were being butchered. But then the bible commands genocide (Deut 7:16) and prophesied the persecution of Jews by Christians for the last 2000 years and culminating in the holocaust (Matt 27:25).

As for the Aussies, they were useless as the arvn's were.
That's just your personal opinion and obviously you don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about, even though we weren't butchering women and children and smoking marijuana and using heroin on patrol too.

And do you also believe that the Yanks should have nuked the Vietnamese to support French Colonialism and American Imperialism? Or should the Yanks have actually helped the Vietnamese and abided by the Geneva Agreement in 1954 to hold a referendum of the Vietnamese to re-unite Vietnam, and then the Yanks wouldn't have needed to skulk back home to build that wall in Washington as a memorial to futility and complete stupidity.
 
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Mitty

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You mistake protecting the American people as a lack of love. No Ben Laden was dispatched for that very reason you mentioned, he started it, our people are finishing it. The reality is what America is doing today is protecting a lot of people. No one wants war, but when it is brought to your door step you either fight or die, it isn't about love, it is about survival.
So why did the Yanks attack Vietnam and Afghanistan and Iraq, since they were no threat to your country and given that bin Laden was a Saudi anyway?

And afterall any country is entitled to have nukes as a deterrent against the Yanks given they are the only ones who have used them and wanted to nuke the Vietnamese to support French colonialism and American Imperialism.
 
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BigV

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Well, if you can love your enemies by killing them, then Christian teaching to love your enemies is not unique. It’s just a false advertising.

The more I participate in these conversations with Christians the more I realize how dishonest Christianity really is.
 
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RBPerry

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It certainly is important if you were at My Lai when the women and children were being butchered. But then the bible commands genocide (Deut 7:16) and prophesied the persecution of Jews by Christians for the last 2000 years and culminating in the holocaust (Matt 27:25).

I was there, but people were never given the true story. Those people were VC, daily pretending to be a neutral village, at night they housed VC, supported, and attacked our company. What happened was wrong an over reaction, not by our Lt, but by the brass. I honestly don't know what happened up the chain of command, but yes, someone should have been hung for ordering the attack, but not the people just following orders.

Your a supported of the VC, so your just a traitor to your own country, the VC murdered over four million people when they took over the south. I hated being forced into the military and into combat, I did my tour and got out. You probably never seen the brutality of the VC. You were camped out in Vung Tau, that was a R&R party place, most likely never locked and loaded, or did they even let you have a weapon, sure didn't need it down there.

As for the Jews, America is the one that helped them reestablish their homeland, As Christians we are taught to love the Jewish people, they are God's chosen people. The bible says whomever curses the Jews, God will curse. We destroyed Hitler with the Help of the Russians and Bits so your comment is obviously misinformed and mean spirited.

This is totally off subject, and I won't comment further about Vietnam or anything America is doing. This is a Christian forum and we need to keep our focus on the topic.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Well, if you can love your enemies by killing them, then Christian teaching to love your enemies is not unique. It’s just a false advertising.

The more I participate in these conversations with Christians the more I realize how dishonest Christianity really is.

:doh:... and I was just thinking something similar about a number of skeptics.....what a coincidence!
 
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Mitty

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I was there, but people were never given the true story. Those people were VC, daily pretending to be a neutral village, at night they housed VC, supported, and attacked our company. What happened was wrong an over reaction, not by our Lt, but by the brass. I honestly don't know what happened up the chain of command, but yes, someone should have been hung for ordering the attack, but not the people just following orders.
None of that excuses anything given that the Yanks attacked Vietnam instead of supporting the Vietnamese and abiding by the Geneva Agreement in 1954 to unite Vietnam.

The matter should have been dealt with by an international court for war crimes and crimes against humanity instead of just being swept under the carpet by the Yanks to protect the senior Christian officers who ordered the massacre and the murdering thugs who butchered the unarmed women and children in My Lai. That's the same as letting Japan try their own war criminals who committed similar atrocities against my father and the other "Slaves of the Son of Heaven" in Singapore & Burma & Japan etc.
Anyone that murdered the unarmed women and children in My Lai should have also been imprisoned, and the senior Christian officer(s) executed, and then all rot in hell.

And I'm currently reading a book about the death marches in North Borneo (where I visited recently) and how those Japanese who were also "just following orders" were executed. And I cried at the memorial garden near Ranau when I realised that my father could have been sent to Sandakan too, instead of to build a railway in Burma and then to mine coal near Nagasaki.
Your a supported of the VC, so your just a traitor to your own country, the VC murdered over four million people when they took over the south.
FYI the VC were the South Vietnamese who were fighting against the corrupt brutal police regime in Saigon, and why the Yanks didn't have a clue why they were there or who they were fighting.

And why do you claim that I'm a traitor to my country, given that I'm not even Vietnamese?

And do you have any actual evidence to support your claim that the South Vietnamese murdered over four million people when they defeated the corrupt brutal police regime in Saigon, or is that just more fake Yank propaganda?

And anyone familiar with the English language knows that the word "your" is not a synonym for "you're" or "you are". You're and Your
Your a supported of the VC, so your just a traitor to your own country, the VC murdered over four million people when they took over the south. I hated being forced into the military and into combat, I did my tour and got out. You probably never seen the brutality of the VC. You were camped out in Vung Tau, that was a R&R party place, most likely never locked and loaded, or did they even let you have a weapon, sure didn't need it down there.
I was a conscientious objector and reluctant conscript, and as a non-Christian I never believed that it was right to be supporting the elite corrupt brutal police regime in Saigon. I worked in the pathology lab in the hospital at Vung Tau to help save lives, not to take them, including the VC who were "dusted off" to us. And I certainly haven't changed my mind since then about interfering in the Vietnam Civil War after the defeat of the French Colonialists in the Vietnamese War of Independence. And if FDR had survived the war, I'm sure he wouldn't have supported French colonialism and wanted to nuke the Vietnamese like his successors, and you wouldn't have needed to slink back home to build that wall in Washington as a memorial to futility and complete stupidity, since the Yanks were never ever going to win that war which they had no clue about. In the same way that attacking Iraq and Afghanistan is futile too. And afterall Nguyen Sinh Cung even ask the Yanks to help the Vietnamese against the French colonialists. And on a trip back to Vung Tau a year or so ago I smiled to see a temple has been built to his memory where the ALSG HQ was 50 years ago, and there is now a five star hotel where our swimming pool was and where I played water polo and near where I surfed and sailed the yachts on our beach.

Perhaps you should read "Embers of War" by Fredrik Logevall about why the My Lai butchers didn't need to build that memorial wall to futility in Washington.

As for the Jews, America is the one that helped them reestablish their homeland, As Christians we are taught to love the Jewish people, they are God's chosen people. The bible says whomever curses the Jews, God will curse. We destroyed Hitler with the Help of the Russians and Bits so your comment is obviously misinformed and mean spirited.
Hitler was a Christian and was obeying the commandment for genocide (Deut 7:16) and as prophesied in Matt 27:25, and why Christians persecuted Jews for the last 2000 years.
And there is no excuse for kicking the Palestinians out of their land, given that the Jews and the other Semites lived harmoniously there for centuries before the Zionists stole their land just like Joshua et al did when they butchered all the children and unborn (Josh 6:21 8:26 10:37). And the Yanks could have resettled the Jewish refugees in New Mexico and renamed it New Israel instead of creating ISIS when Dubya attacked Iraq looking for "weapons of mass deception".

This is totally off subject, and I won't comment further about Vietnam or anything America is doing. This is a Christian forum and we need to keep our focus on the topic.
This subject is about why people aren't Christians, and why less than 10% ever bother to go to church now, and why more than 30% said they had no religious affiliation on the recent national census compared to 22% on the previous census.
 
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