It got better for me in university when I didn't renounce my faith.
I figured, otherwise you wouldn't be talking to me right now
I don't know of many professional historians who would agree with you both on the matter of distance in time from an event limiting trustworthiness of eyewitnesses, or the claim that there is "very little tangible evidence for Jesus Christ."
Well, for a supernatural event, how can we trust eyewitnesses? Ask defense attorneys, eyewitnesses are trouble, even a week after the fact.
Complexity, beauty, balance and order are marks of a Designer or Maker. This is not a "culturally ingrained symbol," its an obvious fact. Also, has it occurred to you that your own defiance of this "cultural ingraining" is a detriment to your theory concerning it?
By what standard are they marks of a creator. Its impossible to argue with you though, because you can say EVERYTHING was created, so there is absolutely no possible way to argue otherwise to you, its worthless because theres no logic possible here.
I didn't say that "feeling watched over" was how one sensed God's presence. One doesn't need to have any such feeling to be aware that God is.
What is this feeling than? Because I've never had a feeling that I can attribute to a god.
Nothing else answers the questions that arise from the things I mentioned so well as God. Evolution cannot account for our capacity to moralize, or love, or express ourselves artistically. Evolution cannot answer where the information necessary for everything to exist came from.
Evolution and psychology account for those things, we don't fully understand them, but we're getting closer and closer. Morality could evolve, there are innate human things in our minds, look up cultural universals, every human society has several practices and beliefs in common.
I have taken pains to study how the Bible came into existence, how it has been preserved over time, and its impact upon humanity. In respect to these things, the Bible is without peer. I have many times addressed the question of "contradictions" from skeptics.
There are many books which impact humanity greatly, there are many that are painstakingly preserved, the bible is without peer because you BELIEVE it is, without faith in it, its another book. Thing is, you shouldn't have to study it all your life to see it as viable, it should be apparent, a perfect, absolutely clear message from god.
He doesn't. There are many very logical people who have embraced the idea of God. Ravi Zacharias, C.S. Lewis, and the notorious one-time atheist, Antony Flew, for examples.
The idea of god, and the bible as fact and a christian god with a human super-powered jesus are two very different things. You can believe in a higher power without believing anything the bible says. So why is the bible right just because people believe in a god?
You mean just one
more sign, I think. God has given us all many signs, as I pointed out before, for the express purpose of saving us from damnation. Nonetheless, you insist that God meet you on your terms. He must jump through one more hoop just for you. This reverses the relationship of creature to Creator, however, which is something God cannot and will not countenance. You are His creature; if anyone should be jumping through hoops it should be you, not Him. Surprisingly, although He didn't have to, God has gone to great lengths to lead us to Himself.
I've never had a sign from god. He hasn't jumped through a single hoop so far, seeing as how I haven't noticed any signs. You see signs and design, I see chaos and luck. Its perspective, and if god exists, he gave me this perspective. How did he go through great lengths to save our generation? Or the ones before Jesus? He allowed his message to be distorted with time, created a paradoxical history, and allowed science and free thinking to flourish. He has to be trying to damn us all.
What do you mean by "lead us toward it"? I mean, God has not made His way of escape, the gospel, a secret. You can take advantage of it just as I can. What barriers you perceive to doing so are on your end, not God's. Do you think God should just wrest your will from you and make you accept His gift of salvation? Or maybe you think He should have approached the whole matter differently, more in line with what makes sense to you?
That would rather confuse who is calling the shots, though, wouldn't it? If God has to tailor His conduct to suit each individual's ideas of logic, justice, etc. who's really in charge? Not God, I think.
He hasn't made it a secret, but he makes it incredibly difficult to believe. The story of Santa isn't a secret, but I'm not liable to believe it. Sure I can "Take advantage of it" but why is it right? Why SHOULD I believe it? Because it says so? There is no proof, contradictory evidence everywhere, the morals are clearly outdated, with Babylonian style punishment for crimes. The barriers are on my end, because I don't stop thinking. I see logical contradictions and morality I see as anachronistic and dangerous to human rights, and I see no purpose in buying into it. He should have to tailor it because we're all very different, some people are like robots, you tell them something they do it, some people are hard to convince, some are skeptics, some believers, he's trying to force the square peg in the circle slot for a lot of us, and it simply isn't fair.
How do you as a finite, imperfect creature assume that merely "using your head" will allow you to properly assess what God, a perfect, infinite Being, is doing?
Because if you think about it, he isn't infinite, and he isn't perfect. It took him a week to create the universe, yet he exists outside of time. Wouldn't he have known his creation before he created it, and have finished it in less than an instant? Lets think, murder is wrong, however god does it when he pleases. If he were perfect, he could do no wrong. Think of it like a chess game. Whatever god's goal is in the biblical situation, lets use the metaphor "He's trying to take the king". Lets say all the other pieces of the opponents team, are people, and when he knocks them down, he kills them. Any being that wasn't infinite would have to take some people down to take out the king. An infinite god could instantly take the king sparing all the other pieces. He obviously CAN reach his goals without killing, however he chooses to break his own rules. Shouldn't you question there? His logic would fit ours, especially if we are in his image.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Sticks in the craw a bit, doesn't it? The Bible answers your question this way:
Than why worship him? He'll do whatever he feels like to you, whether you like it or not, might just ruin your life for the fun of it (Why else would there be so many homeless and miserable people in the world?).
Romans 9:20-21 (NKJV)
Isaiah 29:16 (NKJV)
I see how the first one works, but the second one, its very vague, in fact both are rather vague...
Okay, now, hold on. I said God has every right to use us as He pleases, but this is not the same as saying God doesn't love us! The gospel is testament to the fact that God loves us all very much! Were He not a loving God you and I would likely not exist.
However, the entire old testament, which is part of the book, states that he regularly kills us off and ruins our lives, for the hell of it. If he were perfect, he wouldn't suddenly change his mind, he would have always had the perfect plan of action
Its not that God doesn't want us to be logical; He just wants us to use that logic in recognizing that it has very finite limits. Ideally, our logic should lead us toward God; but it has been corrupted by Sin and now leads us instead to prideful railing against a God who is not in contradiction to logic, but beyond it.
Logic and reasoning have absolutely no limits. Putting limits on them is putting limits on our future. Logic should lead to the correct answer, regardless of what our biases wish for the answer to be. It isn't prideful or against god, its trying to improve life. We want to live longer, travel faster, entertain ourselves, love easier, and understand everything.
Actually, the Bible tells us only that God warned them not to eat the fruit, that doing so would cause their death. He didn't say, "It is morally wrong to eat the fruit."This is true for you and I today, but not for Adam and Eve. Until the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was eaten of, there was no Good and Evil, only innocent, happy fellowship with God.
But think about it, if your mother said to you in a mall "Don't step on the black tiles" And you had no knowledge of right or wrong, therefore without an understanding of reward and punishment, and without any specific reason. Wouldn't you end up eventually stepping on them? There is no such thing as innocent happiness and no evil or good. For there to be happiness, there must be sadness. Happiness requires sadness to base it off of. Look at celebrities, they're miserable, but they have things which should make them happy, but they never have to deal with disappointment, so they set the bar for happiness too high.
It took deception and pointed temptation on the part of the devil to cause the Fall. Until the devil's advent into the story, it seems Adam and Eve were quite content to ignore the tree. This certainly makes sense in light of the close fellowship the two had with God.
That's because their attention was never brought to it. They were alone in a happy place full of plenty of other food, probably sex, and relaxation. There was never a time table in there for how long until they ate the fruit. It could have been 5 minutes later. And still, wouldn't god understand they were deceived? He gave them innocence, they didn't know any better.
In any case, the opportunity and the ability to choose not to obey God was necessary in having full, genuine fellowship with Him. You see the Tree solely as a trap, when in fact it was a necessary component of Adam and Eve's willing (as opposed to coerced) relationship with God.
True, but what choice did they really have? "You follow me, or I will make your lives painful, and short, and full of sadness and misery. Your children will burn for all eternity and they will commit horrible atrocities." That is a trap, willing is having two options with nearly equal possible gains or risks. Eating from the tree was guaranteed misery, and therefore shouldn't be considered a choice.
God simply allowed to happen to Adam and Eve exactly what He said would happen if they ate of the forbidden fruit. Is it vengeful to warn a child if he steals a cookie that he will be grounded and then, when he steals one, actually follow through on your warning? I don't think so.
No, but its vengeful to tell the child you're going to ground all his descendants for his decision. I'm saying he shouldn't have done something like that, it was obvious they'd eat the fruit, a 5 year old could predict it. If its so easily predictable to us, he should have known.
It is a testament to the supreme wickedness of sin that its effects afflict the innocent. We understand the terrible seriousness of Adam and Eve's sin by the awful consequences that followed it. God is not unfair; Adam and Eve's sin was horrendous. Their disobedience was so atrocious that you and I continue to bear its result today.
They ate fruit. Oh horrors of horrors, we shall burn billions for all eternity to pay the debt. They disobeyed god, I do it every day when I stare lustfully at a plethora of different women. Why aren't I berated by god personally? Why just them?
I don't follow the paradox you've set up. I suppose its because I don't understand what happened in Eden as you do.
If he loves us, he must not be omnipotent, otherwise, he would understand we'd choose the tree of knowledge in very little time because we can't fully understand it. In fact, he can't be much more intelligent than you or I if this is the case. If he's omnipotent, he knows he set a trap, and therefore cannot love us. God is a paradox in this sense. He cannot be both of these at once, otherwise logic fails.
For many, the two are not mutually exclusive in the least. In fact, some very logical and rational people think not believing in God is quite irrational. God doesn't want you to abandon rationality; He simply expects you to understand that, when it comes to Him, your capacity to rationalize won't be completely sufficient.
They aren't being logical and rational with the religion though, they allow their biases to get fully in the way. They need to abandon logic eventually to make all this work.
Just because you believe something does not make it a reality, either.
True, true. Life is all perspective.
BY the way, you're making a category error comparing the Bible with Orwell's "1984." Its difficult to take your point about circular reasoning when you make such a mistake in comparing the two things. Its sort of like comparing a matchbox car to a Formula 1 racing car.
I know, but I think you're being hard on the bible, I think it amounts to at least an R/C car in comparison
Still isn't good enough. Not for a perfectly holy God. Have you ever told a lie? How about used God's name in vain? Ever coveted something or someone? Ever held hateful thoughts toward someone? If you've done anyone of these things or violated any of the other commandments of God even once, you're not good enough - not for God anyway.
Of course I have, I'm human, those things are done by all of us (And desire actually fuels progress, so coveting can be quite good.) I see no rationale in infinite punishment for mistakes, so I choose not to believe in god.
Romans 3:10 (NKJV)
Isaiah 64:6 (NKJV)
I don't want to think of myself as worthless, and I don't want to think of myself as overly special, I'd rather be a realist. And unfortunately, only buddhism preaches that kind of approach to a degree, and I like things too much
I like your optimism! I hope good things for you! Understand, though, that without God your bright dreams will end in unfulfilled darkness. As bright as your plans may be, they pale in comparison to doing and being what God made you to do and be.
I love how you sound so nice and then say "Oh by the way, you'll be miserable in the end :]" And hey, tough world, optimism gets you motivated and happy, only surefire way to get to the top. I don't know though, because I'm pretty happy right now, I don't see any lasting darkness. I honestly see more miserable Christians.
Psalm 16:11 (NKJV)
