Atheist willing to hear another side.

[PuzzledBread]

I have realized I've never truly explained why I'm an atheist to theists, in an attempt to get opinions. Maybe its because I'm confident in my choice, actually, it is probably that.

But I want to be more open minded, and the first step I can really take is a tough one, religious beliefs. Can I face religious beliefs with an open mind, maybe even change them based on an argument? I thought whats the harm, I know I won't become a fundamentalist, and finding a better religious viewpoint (if there is one) may happen.

So here's my story, as a child, I remember church. My father I believe was unsure about religion his entire life, he remains an agnostic to this day, and I never remembered him believing in god. My mother however, has always been religious. She attempted to teach me about god, and brought me and my sister to church every sunday in our early life. I don't remember much, other than there were donuts half the time, my mom made me sing hymns when I was a little older, and I was usually in sunday school. We actually went to the pastor's home once for some party, and I remember playing with his sons.

So one day, we move. And church stops. My mom never found a new one she liked, and we stopped going. She remained religious however, and constantly read bible verses, and spoke in the name of Jesus. She always talked about prayer and heaven. I honestly remember the aching pull of indoctrination. The feeling that I had to believe this to make my mom happy.

But honestly, I don't think I ever believed. I remember I believed in things based on proof. I was always skeptical about Santa and the Easter Bunny. And I wasn't shocked when I was told they weren't real (While my sister believed until around 11.). My mom tried proving the easter bunny was real with tracks around the house, and it just made me wonder about the tracks, like why they were in powdered sugar. God honestly never interested me. I was a little kid, and while I had an odd affinity with science (My parents showed me children's encyclopedias at a young age, I always looked at the biological sections, and the space sections, and when I could read I read as much as I could on them), and an obsession with trains, I was pretty normal. The lack of church solidified my scientific mindset. Since no one was confusing me with the idea of faith, I was free to learn all I could on a diverse number of subjects.

I tried the born again mindset once. I had started reading the left behind series at around 14. I was interested in the idea of the end of the world. I loved dystopian books, and this one seemed interesting, and informative about someone's actual beliefs. I put it down midseries because the interesting plot was watered down by the converting and crying and praying. It was the same crap, different page. But I still had it ingrained in my mind that if this was real, all it took was admitting it was real and believing it.

So I was lonely, and I wanted friends because I was the kid no one ever talked to in school. I thought if god was real, he would understand I was crying myself to sleep every night. He would understand that my faith was genuine at the moment, and I deserved a sign. Needless to say, I recieved no sign, I felt no different afterwards, I felt stupid honestly. I told myself I had to try having faith, and it didn't work, I felt silly.

I denounced my faith rather quickly. And then, I began to research, because my attempt at faith intrigued me. I found some disturbing things. Such as the fact the bible was written centuries after Jesus' death. The fact following a star would lead you in a circle. The fact genesis could not be literal as well as science. The fact Bethlehem didn't exist in first century AD, it was a tomb. The fact most of the bizarre rituals could be traced to early paganism, and Jesus himself was based on several pagan gods down to the last detail. So many other historical problems caused me to say it was impossible.

Then there were logical problems. The fact that god killed millions in the Bible, much of it senseless when with his omnipotence easily have found a way around killing. The fact he placed two creatures without right and wrong to try and understand right and wrong, and then blame them when they couldn't. Punishing the descendants of criminals because of their bloodline. Owning and beating slaves, inferior women, stoning homosexuals. Out of the 10 rules you cannot break, rape and pedophilia don't make the list. Just so many things that logic just doesn't work with. Eternal torture for a lack of faith. Honestly, what type of god gives INFINITE torture? We're humans, we make mistakes, we can be driven insane, we can learn to regret and acknowledge actions as wrong, and be detered from repeating them. Why just torture to torture?

This is when I denounced belief in any religion. Rituals don't do anything, neither does faith in the supernatural, or worship. I am a great person without god, and I am curious as to why god would make me better? What is it that god would do for me? Do I really need to believe in someone?

I'm looking forward to any responses and hope that I can get a broad perspective on religion

 

[salida]

Ok, I will explain many things and start at the beginning. Many people like to bring science into it which I find interesting because I'm a science major. There are many types of science such as darwinism, intelligent design and creationism. So, lets ask ourselves who has the most logical and reasonable answer here and the most evidence to back them up (all at the same time)? No matter what seems the most supportative of a lack of a god or a god sometimes a person chooses what they "want" to believe and what they are comfortable with no matter what. The will overrides it all. I'm a christian first spiritually and second intellectually. There are scientists that have PhD's in all these world views of darwinism, intellect design and creationism.

Among the first scientists in history most did belong to a denomination but not all - http://www.adherents.com/people/100_Nobel.html

Lets look at darwinism a little - they claim something came from nothing. Well, this is troubling. How did your automobile came into being? A designer. How then can a human body cell which is 1000 times more complicated appear out of thin air? Yes, I'm familiar with their arguments here but the chance of something coming from nothing is one in a billion at least. The chance of your car coming from nothing is more possible. The darwinist evolutionist claim that, for example, genetics goes in an upward motion and that it changes over time with greater intelligence and complexity - not so. Genes can be copied perfectly or imperfectly but they can't be copied more perfectly. Also, what about the law of thermodynamics? Darwin evolutionist have great difficulty with this law if they think the universe is infinite which I don't believe it is because of THIS law. If you don't want to get into creationism thats fine - but I can go there and support my views scientifically as that is what my view is.
To learn more of and more go to: www.creationworldview.org

I have studied other religions - they want you to work for salvation. Only in christianity is a gift offered for salvation. Why do we need a Lord and Savior, http://www.livingwaters.com/good/ Are you a good person? Can you keep the 10 Commandments 100% of time all the time? Only Jesus could.

There is a notion out there unfortunately that one believes in religion or science but both isn't possible. This is not the case at all. Its a large lie and our culture is being indoctrinated without looking and researching themselves. God made the laws of science and man just interprets what He has created. Sometimes they try to without a god.

Interested in biblical evidence? Read The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell (it would stand up in a court of law without a shadow of a doubt)

*********I'm not scared at all please bring it on! If you have any more questions, feel free to email me. I plan on logging on later in the day. No one ever scared me off - but instead it became the same old circular reasoning - like a dog chasing their tail - unproductive and boring.

Another book is, I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Athiest by Norman L. Geisler

 

[tansy]

Hi Puzzledbread - I know that I certainly can't answer all of your points, but I'll try and touch on a few. (I wouldn't say I'm at all good at apologetics)

Religion, faith, God can certainly be very confusing...none of us has all the answers.

Faith is not something you try, you either have it or you don't, and in varying dgrees, depending on what aspect one's thinking about.
Faith (at least in Jesus) is actually a gift from God - you can't just somehow drum up faith. However hard I might try, I cannot, for example, drum up faith in fairies etc. (For all I know, they may exist, but I have no particular evidence for them, and there is no reason to put faith in them).
To cut a long story short, before I bacame a Christian, I began to wonder whether or not God did really exist, and if there were some ultimate power or truth, and if so what the nature of this was - or were we merely a collection of physical elements, atoms etc.
I did a little research, but knew that in a lifetime, I couldn't possibly research every bit of science, every bit of history, archeology, every single religion or philosophy, let alone try them out and see which one worked. But I was open to any possibility.
In the end, I decided that the only way to find out for sure, was to ask God..so I did. I said to Him something like.."If you exist, show me, show me what's right, what' wrong, what matters, what doesn't, what's important, what's true,...."
I thought, if He exists, and He's a good God, He will show me, and if He doesn't exist, He won't. And that will be that.
The upshot was, that (as far as I'm concerned) He DID show me..but I can't prove that to anybody in so many words.

You probably are a great person without God...but you would be even greater with Him. At least for my part, I know He changed me (and is still changing me) for the better.

As for the other things you said that don't seem logical - some of them, I think you're probably approaching them from the wrong angle, or because there are other things you haven't understood. Some things, not even Christians have a complete or satisfactory answer for them (we don't have the whole picture either).
If we had the exact answer for everything, there wouldn't be so many differing interpretations of Scripture, and at least half of CF Forums would be non-existant!

I'm sorry if my rersponse is inadequate in the extreme, but there are others who could go into the nitty-gritty far more comprehensively than I can.

 

[the.Sheepdog]

I would just say 'Do you know what happens when you die?' nothing? or something?

Which would you rather believe? I would rather believe in something rather than nothing. In my case that would be someone- Jesus. He has proven himself to me. I am an electronics engineering major. Just try to explain electrical current without God!

 

[Hentenza]

I denounced my faith rather quickly. And then, I began to research, because my attempt at faith intrigued me. I found some disturbing things. Such as the fact the bible was written centuries after Jesus' death. The fact following a star would lead you in a circle. The fact genesis could not be literal as well as science. The fact Bethlehem didn't exist in first century AD, it was a tomb. The fact most of the bizarre rituals could be traced to early paganism, and Jesus himself was based on several pagan gods down to the last detail. So many other historical problems caused me to say it was impossible.

Here is some food for thought.

1. The majority of the NT was written within 30 years of the death of Christ. This makes the narrative well within literary historical parameters.

2. The city of Bethlehem of Judea was a thriving city in Herodean times. I think you are referring to Bethlehem of Zebulun. Different city.

3. Genesis has never made the claim of being a science book although there is no scientific proof to disprove the account of the creation.

4. The star of Bethlehem was actually a triple conjunction of the planets Jupiter and Saturn. According to astronomical evidence this phenomena occurs once every 900 years, however it occurred 3 times during the time of Jesus birth.

5. Jesus was not based on pagan gods. Anyone can find similarities and wrongly apply them to Christianity.

Then there were logical problems. The fact that god killed millions in the Bible, much of it senseless when with his omnipotence easily have found a way around killing. The fact he placed two creatures without right and wrong to try and understand right and wrong, and then blame them when they couldn't. Punishing the descendants of criminals because of their bloodline. Owning and beating slaves, inferior women, stoning homosexuals. Out of the 10 rules you cannot break, rape and pedophilia don't make the list. Just so many things that logic just doesn't work with. Eternal torture for a lack of faith. Honestly, what type of god gives INFINITE torture? We're humans, we make mistakes, we can be driven insane, we can learn to regret and acknowledge actions as wrong, and be detered from repeating them. Why just torture to torture?

I can address each one of these but you will not accept my explanations since you seem to put a lot of stock on what you have read in atheist websites. There are many portions of the bible that can be twisted out of context. If you truly want to examine each one then I will be happy to discuss it with you but lets discuss it one at a time.

 

[PuzzledBread]

<staff edit>

Ok, I will explain many things and start at the beginning. Many people like to bring science into it which I find interesting because I'm a science major.

I didn't bring science in as a reason why I don't follow the religion, I believe its fully possible to reconcile faith and science. I didn't know how I would end up though, and I think my lack of introduction to faith as a concept allows me to be a bit more rational than those subject to indoctrination. I don't think I'd be religious even if I never found interest in science, I focus on details a lot, and can't put faith into something with so many inconsistencies.

There are many types of science such as darwinism, intelligent design and creationism.

Only Darwinism (Which is an anachronistic ism really, it is accepted at this point) is science out of those 3, the other two cannot be tested, and therefor ARE NOT science. (They could be true, but that doesn't make them scientific)

So, lets ask ourselves who has the most logical and reasonable answer here and the most evidence to back them up (all at the same time)? No matter what seems the most supportative of a lack of a god or a god sometimes a person chooses what they "want" to believe and what they are comfortable with no matter what. The will overrides it all. I'm a christian first spiritually and second intellectually. There are scientists that have PhD's in all these world views of darwinism, intellect design and creationism.

But just believing something because its comfortable is useless, santa clause is comfortable, but who here believes in him? Don't you want to believe something that makes the most sense? Not just what feels good?

Among the first scientists in history most did belong to a denomination but not all -

Yes, but none of them put it before observation, Galileo believed in god, but he didn't let god cloud his observation of the world, science and religion can be reconciled, but one must realize they can't pick and choose science, otherwise it isn't science.

Lets look at darwinism a little - they claim something came from nothing. Well, this is troubling. How did your automobile came into being? A designer.

Who designed god? Who designed god's designer? Why does everything need a designer? Coral reefs didn't need a designer, and they're gorgeous, its hard to argue this because you assume everything was designed, but I'm sure some things formed in the last 6000 years without a designer available. Just think, what do you say when I ask who designed god? You say god didn't need a designer... than why did we? Then you say god is outside space and time and thus doesn't need a designer. Isn't that even more complicated? Its comfortable, so you say we're too complex, when your answer is even more strange and complex. We can't understand god at all, and you use that as an excuse, but even though you could understand our answers on a much more detailed level, you say no, this is far more troubling.

How then can a human body cell which is 1000 times more complicated appear out of thin air? Yes, I'm familiar with their arguments here but the chance of something coming from nothing is one in a billion at least.

Over 4 billion years 1 in a billion is a great bit of odds.

The chance of your car coming from nothing is more possible. The darwinist evolutionist claim that, for example, genetics goes in an upward motion and that it changes over time with greater intelligence and complexity - not so. Genes can be copied perfectly or imperfectly but they can't be copied more perfectly.

You don't understand evolution at all, sure they can be copied imperfectly, but over time if better genes reproduce more, and worse genes don't reproduce at all. We have bad genes, lots of them. Look up retinoblastoma. Its in our genes, far, far from perfect. We're very imperfect, we can never improve fully, but we fit our environment very well. Intelligence improves if the environment demands it. You're not going to make anything but your argument sound ridiculous because you don't understand the science, do some research.

Also, what about the law of thermodynamics? Darwin evolutionist have great difficulty with this law if they think the universe is infinite which I don't believe it is because of THIS law.

Thanks for solidifying the fact you don't know what you're talking about, and just citing other pseudosciences without understanding them. You mean the second law? Entropy? Yeah, we obviously don't have a source of immense energy that would overturn that law in our situation, definitely not a GIANT FUSION REACTOR IN THE SKY shooting down an almost infinite amount of energy.... yeah... that sun thing couldn't be it.... And darwinists don't have anything to do with the universe, its life they focus on. COSMOLOGISTS however, have answered that because of entropy, within around 10^32 I believe years, the universe will be absolute zero throughout. Entropy will make the universe uninhabitable, but not for trillions of trillions of years.

If you don't want to get into creationism thats fine - but I can go there and support my views scientifically as that is what my view is.
To learn more of and more go to:

You detracted a lot from evolution, but didn't say a thing about why creationism is right, and instead linked me to a ministry site...

I have studied other religions - they want you to work for salvation. Only in christianity is a gift offered for salvation. Why do we need a Lord and Savior, Are you a good person? Can you keep the 10 Commandments 100&#37; of time all the time? Only Jesus could.

Christianity makes you work for it too, where are you on sundays? How often do you think of it? How often are you here? How much time has it taken out of your life? There just aren't any rituals, but it still takes as much time.

There is a notion out there unfortunately that one believes in religion or science but both isn't possible. This is not the case at all. Its a large lie and our culture is being indoctrinated without looking and researching themselves. God made the laws of science and man just interprets what He has created. Sometimes they try to without a god.

ALL science can work with god, you just choose to not take it seriously, I never said they can't work together, I never said science was why, I said the RELIGION was why.

Interested in biblical evidence? Read The Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell (it would stand up in a court of law without a shadow of a doubt)

*********I'm not scared at all please bring it on! If you have any more questions, feel free to email me. I plan on logging on later in the day. No one ever scared me off - but instead it became the same old circular reasoning - like a dog chasing their tail - unproductive and boring.

Another book is, I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Athiest by Norman L. Geisler

You're the only one with circular reasoning, I can give sources for all my information if I dig, your source is the bible, and why is the bible true? Because it says it is. That is circular. Religion is circular, science by definition is not.

Hi Puzzledbread - I know that I certainly can't answer all of your points, but I'll try and touch on a few. (I wouldn't say I'm at all good at apologetics)

Religion, faith, God can certainly be very confusing...none of us has all the answers.

Faith is not something you try, you either have it or you don't, and in varying dgrees, depending on what aspect one's thinking about.
Faith (at least in Jesus) is actually a gift from God - you can't just somehow drum up faith. However hard I might try, I cannot, for example, drum up faith in fairies etc. (For all I know, they may exist, but I have no particular evidence for them, and there is no reason to put faith in them).
To cut a long story short, before I bacame a Christian, I began to wonder whether or not God did really exist, and if there were some ultimate power or truth, and if so what the nature of this was - or were we merely a collection of physical elements, atoms etc.
I did a little research, but knew that in a lifetime, I couldn't possibly research every bit of science, every bit of history, archeology, every single religion or philosophy, let alone try them out and see which one worked. But I was open to any possibility.
In the end, I decided that the only way to find out for sure, was to ask God..so I did. I said to Him something like.."If you exist, show me, show me what's right, what' wrong, what matters, what doesn't, what's important, what's true,...."
I thought, if He exists, and He's a good God, He will show me, and if He doesn't exist, He won't. And that will be that.
The upshot was, that (as far as I'm concerned) He DID show me..but I can't prove that to anybody in so many words.

You probably are a great person without God...but you would be even greater with Him. At least for my part, I know He changed me (and is still changing me) for the better.

As for the other things you said that don't seem logical - some of them, I think you're probably approaching them from the wrong angle, or because there are other things you haven't understood. Some things, not even Christians have a complete or satisfactory answer for them (we don't have the whole picture either).
If we had the exact answer for everything, there wouldn't be so many differing interpretations of Scripture, and at least half of CF Forums would be non-existant!

I'm sorry if my rersponse is inadequate in the extreme, but there are others who could go into the nitty-gritty far more comprehensively than I can.

I liked your answer a lot, you can't say why I'd be a better person with god, and I'd like to know why, but you seem to have faith for valid reasons and respect other viewpoints and even though I do not believe the bible is true in any sense (Other than some of Jesus' teachings, and several commandments), I'd say the best way to follow it would be how you seem to, by understanding the answers aren't all there, and the best way to approach it is with an open mind, which I believe is the only way I could possibly follow a faith. I'm glad you found a way to better yourself by god, thanks so much for the response.

I would just say 'Do you know what happens when you die?' nothing? or something?

Which would you rather believe? I would rather believe in something rather than nothing. In my case that would be someone- Jesus. He has proven himself to me. I am an electronics engineering major. Just try to explain electrical current without God!

I don't know what happens, I'm guessing you don't feel yourself rot or are conscious of it, I am between either there being non-existence, which interests me, or a new awakening to a deep subconscious within ourselves, the energy that makes us up, maybe part of it is us, and there is a universal connection right under our conscious mind that will take over after death. I don't know, but I muse.

Well I ruled out becoming a double E because of how complex it is, haha, more of a mechanical guy, but my jumbled explanation is electrons try to fill valence spots in electron clouds, and since metals have a flow of electrons instead of clouds, the electrons flow through from high density to low. I don't understand it well, but it doesn't mean it needs god to work

Here is some food for thought.

1. The majority of the NT was written within 30 years of the death of Christ. This makes the narrative well within literary historical parameters.

I've read most of it was after that period, even then, how did they get exact quotes? or for that matter, write out a dialogue he had alone in the desert with god? Who witnessed it?

2. The city of Bethlehem of Judea was a thriving city in Herodean times. I think you are referring to Bethlehem of Zebulun. Different city.

That one I wasn't too sure on, could be either way in my eyes, history and what the bible says is never completely clear

3. Genesis has never made the claim of being a science book although there is no scientific proof to disprove the account of the creation.

True, as long as genesis doesn't try to say science is wrong, I will accept it as a viable belief, it is reconcilable without dismissing any branch of science, I could give examples of how.

4. The star of Bethlehem was actually a triple conjunction of the planets Jupiter and Saturn. According to astronomical evidence this phenomena occurs once every 900 years, however it occurred 3 times during the time of Jesus birth.

Hmm, interesting, I'll take your word on it, seems logical enough.

5. Jesus was not based on pagan gods. Anyone can find similarities and wrongly apply them to Christianity.

Look up Horus, an egyptian god, born to a virgin on the 25th of december, called the light, the way. Performed miracles, rose a man from the dead who translated means Lazarus, was killed by crucifixion and buried in a tomb only to rise from the dead 3 days later. There are multiple other gods just like this, and multitudes of similarities i didn't even mention

I can address each one of these but you will not accept my explanations since you seem to put a lot of stock on what you have read in atheist websites. There are many portions of the bible that can be twisted out of context. If you truly want to examine each one then I will be happy to discuss it with you but lets discuss it one at a time.

I'm willing to hear other sides, I put stock in the rational, as you can see by my responses, you give me another explanation, I'm willing to see it as plausible.

 

[JacksLadder]

Here is how I look at it(not a normal christian way) either there is a God who always existed or the universe in some form always existed. Either way there is some type of alpha/omega going on.
Why would a large mass of consciousness(God) imagine(created from the mind of God) bad things upon his creation? Because in order to have the good you have to have something to compare it to. You must have a up to have a down etc....
Jesus in my mind represents ultimate relationship/love of others(to give your life for some one else). Which is to me an ultimate truth(yes we can always debate whether of not truth exist).
Just some of how I look at things take it or leave it believe it or not.

 

[PuzzledBread]

Here is how I look at it(not a normal christian way) either there is a God who always existed or the universe in some form always existed. Either way there is some type of alpha/omega going on.
Why would a large mass of consciousness(God) imagine(created from the mind of God) bad things upon his creation? Because in order to have the good you have to have something to compare it to. You must have a up to have a down etc....
Jesus in my mind represents ultimate relationship/love of others(to give your life for some one else). Which is to me an ultimate truth(yes we can always debate whether of not truth exist).
Just some of how I look at things take it or leave it believe it or not.

Very interesting interpretation, and that's exactly right, for there to be good there must be bad, which is why I dislike heaven and hell. Either way we would end up in the same realm of mundane after a while, because we'd grow used to it. I like your interpretation of Jesus, its a very open ended idea.

 

[Hentenza]

I've read most of it was after that period, even then, how did they get exact quotes? or for that matter, write out a dialogue he had alone in the desert with god? Who witnessed it?

There are a total of 27 books in the NT with the Gospel of Mark generally being accepted as one of the first books written with an early date in the mid 40's and a late date of the late 50's. Paul wrote 13 books which are all dated before his death in appx. 67ad. Peter wrote 2 books which are dated before his death prior to 70ad. Luke wrote 2 books which are dated in the 60's. The Gospel of Matthew is dated in the mid 50's. The book of James is dated to before his death in appx. 45ad. Basically, most of the books of the NT were written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad.


As far as the quotes, there is a verse in scripture that answers this.

John 21:25
25 And there are also many other things that Jesus did, which if they were written one by one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that would be written. Amen.

Jesus spent 3 years teaching the apostles. It is entirely possible that He told them.

That one I wasn't too sure on, could be either way in my eyes, history and what the bible says is never completely clear

The secular histories of both Bethlehems are documented.

True, as long as genesis doesn't try to say science is wrong, I will accept it as a viable belief, it is reconcilable without dismissing any branch of science, I could give examples of how.

The creation account in Genesis has not been desproven bt science. As a matter of fact, science has backpedaled with the big bang theory. The priciple of causation is a strong logical argument for Genesis.

Look up Horus, an egyptian god, born to a virgin on the 25th of december, called the light, the way. Performed miracles, rose a man from the dead who translated means Lazarus, was killed by crucifixion and buried in a tomb only to rise from the dead 3 days later. There are multiple other gods just like this, and multitudes of similarities i didn't even mention

LOL!!! You shouldn't accept evidence from movies or atheist websites. Horus is mythological and frankly has very little in common with Jesus. Let ma ask you something? The resurrection of Jesus could have been discredited very easily by the Jews at the time. Heck, they used a large rock to seal His tomb that probably weighted a ton and then they posted roman guards to guard it. Why didn't the Jews simply parade His body through Jerusalem the next day? That certainly would have put a kink in the apostles accounts, don't you think?

 

[tessaten]

<staff edit>

Any thoughts on whether Aborigines are mentioned in the bible?

 

[jimmyl]

(Just so you know which side of the argument I'm on: I'm a Christian. I think this post is mainly directed at the other Christians who have posted on this thread, but the athiest are free to read, obviously.)

If there has ever been a person who was converted to Christianity solely on the basis of argument, I would be interested to hear about it. I doubt there have been many. I've heard arguments from both sides, and both sides have some good arguments, and some bad arguments. I don't think I'm saying anything earth-shattering there.

I've never bothered to argue the whole Science vs. Religion thing, because I think it's pointless. Scientists make observations, and you can't make them go away. Now, I've never seen scientists discover anything that proves that God doesn't exist, or even that the God of the bible doesn't exist. However, if my belief in God is permanently tied to a bunch of other additions, like believing that the earth is 6000 years old, or believing that the sun revolves around the earth, then suddenly science is my enemy. Be mindful of what you believe is true, and what you believe might be true, and make sure you know the difference.

The bible does tell believers to be ready with an answer as to why they believe. I have not seen anywhere where it says that we are to convince others through debate. We convince others through the lives we live. It's the whole "They will know you are Christians by your love" thing.

So, two big problems with that:

It doesn't really work over the Internet.
Christians tend to shoot ourselves in the foot in this area in real life.

See, here's the problem: There is one prerequisite to being a Christian. You have to be a sinner. Jesus said (paraphrasing) that it is only those who are sick who go to the doctor. You see that in the church. True believing Christians (and understand that not everyone who goes to church is a believer. I think PuzzledBread would agree with that) are people who have recognized horrible things within themselves and have come to Christ to be made right. And it's a life-long process. And that thing within them is not going to go away the minute after they become a Christian. So others often look at the people in the church and think, "What a bunch of miserable jerks!" The answer, of course, is "yeah, that's why they're here." The testimony they have is not so much about who they are today, it's about who they have become over time. Because they do become better people over time. They learn to love others and be selfless and kind and patient and all the other things they should be.

The answer I would give to the question, "Why should I become a Christian," is that you want to be forgiven and freed from whatever it is in life that you feel guilty about. Jesus said, "Come to me, all those who are weary and I will give you rest." He never said, "Come to me because I could totally take Richard Dawkins in a debate." That's not to say that that I don't believe the bible is true. But science isn't the point of the bible. It's like seeing a math problem in a textbook that starts off, "An eskimo has three apples..." and proclaiming that the textbook is wrong because apples don't grow in the tundra. It's kind of missing the point of the book.

So, one more thing (sorry this is so long. I talk). You'll find I think, that the concept of Hell that most people have in their heads is less from the bible and more from individual interpretations of what the bible says. Heaven is to be in the presence of God. Hell is to be outside of the presence of God. Those who want to be with God will be with Him. Those who do not want anything to do with God will not be with Him. However, if all good things come from God, we can assume that one of these choices is less wise than the other. Images of fire and thirst etc... may only be figurative language describing existence apart from man's reason for existence.

 

[PuzzledBread]

(Just so you know which side of the argument I'm on: I'm a Christian. I think this post is mainly directed at the other Christians who have posted on this thread, but the athiest are free to read, obviously.)

If there has ever been a person who was converted to Christianity solely on the basis of argument, I would be interested to hear about it. I doubt there have been many. I've heard arguments from both sides, and both sides have some good arguments, and some bad arguments. I don't think I'm saying anything earth-shattering there.

I've never bothered to argue the whole Science vs. Religion thing, because I think it's pointless. Scientists make observations, and you can't make them go away. Now, I've never seen scientists discover anything that proves that God doesn't exist, or even that the God of the bible doesn't exist. However, if my belief in God is permanently tied to a bunch of other additions, like believing that the earth is 6000 years old, or believing that the sun revolves around the earth, then suddenly science is my enemy. Be mindful of what you believe is true, and what you believe might be true, and make sure you know the difference.

The bible does tell believers to be ready with an answer as to why they believe. I have not seen anywhere where it says that we are to convince others through debate. We convince others through the lives we live. It's the whole "They will know you are Christians by your love" thing.

So, two big problems with that:

It doesn't really work over the Internet.
Christians tend to shoot ourselves in the foot in this area in real life.

See, here's the problem: There is one prerequisite to being a Christian. You have to be a sinner. Jesus said (paraphrasing) that it is only those who are sick who go to the doctor. You see that in the church. True believing Christians (and understand that not everyone who goes to church is a believer. I think PuzzledBread would agree with that) are people who have recognized horrible things within themselves and have come to Christ to be made right. And it's a life-long process. And that thing within them is not going to go away the minute after they become a Christian. So others often look at the people in the church and think, "What a bunch of miserable jerks!" The answer, of course, is "yeah, that's why they're here." The testimony they have is not so much about who they are today, it's about who they have become over time. Because they do become better people over time. They learn to love others and be selfless and kind and patient and all the other things they should be.

The answer I would give to the question, "Why should I become a Christian," is that you want to be forgiven and freed from whatever it is in life that you feel guilty about. Jesus said, "Come to me, all those who are weary and I will give you rest." He never said, "Come to me because I could totally take Richard Dawkins in a debate." That's not to say that that I don't believe the bible is true. But science isn't the point of the bible. It's like seeing a math problem in a textbook that starts off, "An eskimo has three apples..." and proclaiming that the textbook is wrong because apples don't grow in the tundra. It's kind of missing the point of the book.

So, one more thing (sorry this is so long. I talk). You'll find I think, that the concept of Hell that most people have in their heads is less from the bible and more from individual interpretations of what the bible says. Heaven is to be in the presence of God. Hell is to be outside of the presence of God. Those who want to be with God will be with Him. Those who do not want anything to do with God will not be with Him. However, if all good things come from God, we can assume that one of these choices is less wise than the other. Images of fire and thirst etc... may only be figurative language describing existence apart from man's reason for existence.

Very nice post, its too bad most people don't share your sentiment, because that's an approach to the religion that seems to fit Christ's character a bit more.

 

[Sketcher]

I don't really have anything to add to what Henteza and JimmyL have said. I agree with both of them.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

You mentioned you are open to reasons why people are Christian, or learning something new. I will share with you a few true stories from my life that explain why I believe as I do.

STORY 1
======
One morning I got up and walked into the hall and I heard a voice say to me "How would you like to be stabbed in the valley". The valley was the rough end of town, and the voice made me afraid because I was planning to go to the valley that day to ask people out to church. I decided to go any way. I walked up to the first person I met and asked them out to church. He said to me "I am an atheist I don't believe in God". I just said "fine but hopeed to change hiis mind. He then proceeded to upbutton his shirt and showed me scar marks on his front section. He said to me "This is why I don't believe in God, I was attacked by a knife weilding man in the valley some time ago, and spent months recovering in hospital". So I knew why I had been asked in the morning "How would I like it...", God was saying he understood why this man did not have faith. Latter that day I shared the story with him about how God had said "How would I like to be stabbed in the valley", some weeks latter he came out to church and was saved.

STORY 2
=======
I was once faced with the feeling I wanted to sue some one for continually sending me spam of a pornographic nature. I was not sure what to do as I felt a little bit bad about the idea of sueing because I thought it might give the people the wrong idea about Christians. So I was undecided, so I prayed and asked God what I should do. Latter that day I opened up the bible at random, to a random verse, stuck my finger on one; and it was:

1Co 6:7 Nay, already it is altogether a defect in you, that ye have lawsuits one with another. Why not rather take wrong? why not rather be defrauded?

So I knew that God was not wanting me to have a law suit. So I just forgot all about it.

Story 3
=====
I was in the mode of praying for scientific cures for illnesses. When I had an idea, why not seeing I was on a science kick pray to see if God would let me recreate a dinosour. So I asked "God can I create a dinosuor". The term "Bood" entered my mind. A term I had never heard before. I thought I should look it up on the internet. When I did a search I found the term bood is used by a smalll asian tribe to say gently "No". It is a kind way of saying no, no with respectfulness. So I knew God was saying kindly "no".

 

[PuzzledBread]

You mentioned you are open to reasons why people are Christian, or learning something new. I will share with you a few true stories from my life that explain why I believe as I do.

STORY 1
======
One morning I got up and walked into the hall and I heard a voice say to me "How would you like to be stabbed in the valley". The valley was the rough end of town, and the voice made me afraid because I was planning to go to the valley that day to ask people out to church. I decided to go any way. I walked up to the first person I met and asked them out to church. He said to me "I am an atheist I don't believe in God". I just said "fine but hopeed to change hiis mind. He then proceeded to upbutton his shirt and showed me scar marks on his front section. He said to me "This is why I don't believe in God, I was attacked by a knife weilding man in the valley some time ago, and spent months recovering in hospital". So I knew why I had been asked in the morning "How would I like it...", God was saying he understood why this man did not have faith. Latter that day I shared the story with him about how God had said "How would I like to be stabbed in the valley", some weeks latter he came out to church and was saved.

That is quite interesting, I don't think that would personally convince me, but it seems like that person was meant to believe in god if it was a reason like that he denied him.

STORY 2
=======
I was once faced with the feeling I wanted to sue some one for continually sending me spam of a pornographic nature. I was not sure what to do as I felt a little bit bad about the idea of sueing because I thought it might give the people the wrong idea about Christians. So I was undecided, so I prayed and asked God what I should do. Latter that day I opened up the bible at random, to a random verse, stuck my finger on one; and it was:

1Co 6:7 Nay, already it is altogether a defect in you, that ye have lawsuits one with another. Why not rather take wrong? why not rather be defrauded?

So I knew that God was not wanting me to have a law suit. So I just forgot all about it.

Well really, what laws are the porn companies breaking? Might as well sue all the spammers. Its fully legal to annoy you, get better spam filters. And randomization doesn't convince me much, I've taken probability classes. But that is quite a coincidence, and a cool little confirmation.

Story 3
=====
I was in the mode of praying for scientific cures for illnesses. When I had an idea, why not seeing I was on a science kick pray to see if God would let me recreate a dinosour. So I asked "God can I create a dinosuor". The term "Bood" entered my mind. A term I had never heard before. I thought I should look it up on the internet. When I did a search I found the term bood is used by a smalll asian tribe to say gently "No". It is a kind way of saying no, no with respectfulness. So I knew God was saying kindly "no".

You can't quite pray for scientific cures for illnesses, since they'd be supernatural, unless you're praying for scientists to have breakthroughs and find cures, which is probably what you meant to say. And to that jump.... wat. I'm very confused, why would you want to recreate a dinosaur, watch Jurassic Park. And second, how would you? I don't even believe advanced cloning labs have that kind of technology, actually, I KNOW they don't. So I'm just... ummm.... yeah.... That is quite a strange scenario though, psychologists would have fun with it. I lean a bit freudian so my theory is you previously heard the word somehow and retained it in the unconcscious mind, then when your brain finished its double-take from your odd request, it supplied bood from your unconscious. But honestly it is quite odd, extremely lucky. Quite an experience and an interesting confirmation of your faith.

answers in bold

 

[newbeliever02072005]

MOD HAT ON



thread closed for staff review and clean up ~




MOD HAT OFF

 

[HeKnowsMyName]

MODHAT ON​

Staff is reopening this thread. Several posts have been removed while doing a thread cleanup. If you have any questions, please feel free to PM me. For future reference, please read the FSG.​

7.The threads will ONLY be answered by Nicene Creed agreeing Christians.​

8. This forum is NOT for debate. Any argumentative posts will be removed or moved to the General Apologetics forum (or where ever applicable.)​

MODHAT OFF​

 

[PuzzledBread]

MODHAT ON​

Staff is reopening this thread. Several posts have been removed while doing a thread cleanup. If you have any questions, please feel free to PM me. For future reference, please read the FSG.​

MODHAT OFF​

Thanks for reopening, I was finding this a really informative thread

 

[tessaten]

Shame they removed most of my replies, though... I thought I was asking valid questions!! Not sure what to think about that, but I think it's a shame that ideas can't be gently challenged on a forum such as this. Oh well, la-de-da!!

 

[Aibrean]

I just want to call out this portion of scripture to clarify:
1Co 6:7

ln context, this is referring to lawsuits with believers. A believer shouldn't do injustice against another believer because in the court it is brought up in front of non-believers and then it is a bad witness on the character of a Christian. Wrong doings between believers should be resolved quietly and discreetly with each other.