Atheist morality.

[keith99]

Lest any atheist foolishly conclude that religion has no value look at the previous few posts. It would seem religion is the only reason one person is not a dangerous sociopath.

 

[Chany]

Lest any atheist foolishly conclude that religion has no value look at the previous few posts. It would seem religion is the only reason one person is not a dangerous sociopath.

Yes, but one could argue back that religion is the cause of this conclusion in the first place. When your moral development is stunted by "Divine Command Theory", it's no wonder statements like this are made. It took me about a month to find secular morality, and I was familiar with philosophy and ethics beforehand, so I had a head start.

Likewise, I don't know how true this statement is. I mean, I really don't here lots of stories about moral nihilists going around and killing people, or ex-Christians going on a rampage when they start disbelieving in God. I could see some changes that come with a change in belief, like a depressed nihilist lacking motivation, but not "I feel like I want to kill a bunch of people today, so I will".

A dangerous sociopath is always a dangerous sociopath, regardless of whatever faith he professes. A religious person who says this stuff clearly hasn't thought about meta-ethics at all.

And yes, I know I'm reading too deeply into this.

 

[Gadarene]

Yes, but one could argue back that religion is the cause of this conclusion in the first place. When your moral development is stunted by "Divine Command Theory", it's no wonder statements like this are made. It took me about a month to find secular morality, and I was familiar with philosophy and ethics beforehand, so I had a head start. Likewise, I don't know how true this statement is. I mean, I really don't here lots of stories about moral nihilists going around and killing people, or ex-Christians going on a rampage when they start disbelieving in God. I could see some changes that come with a change in belief, like a depressed nihilist lacking motivation, but not "I feel like I want to kill a bunch of people today, so I will". A dangerous sociopath is always a dangerous sociopath, regardless of whatever faith he professes. A religious person who says this stuff clearly hasn't thought about meta-ethics at all. And yes, I know I'm reading too deeply into this.

I think I've said before on this topic - the notion that you need a god to justify morality is in inherently theistic one.

Show me an atheist who thinks that the lack of a god means no morality is justifiable and I'll show you a very confused atheist. They may lack the belief in the deity's existence but they have not challenged all the constructs that theism usually entails. They are still internalising the idea that theism is necessary for morality and simply responding to its apparent negation.

 

[Gadarene]

Double post -_-

 

[Eudaimonist]

Lest any atheist foolishly conclude that religion has no value look at the previous few posts. It would seem religion is the only reason one person is not a dangerous sociopath.

Yeah, not everyone is cut out to be a self-governing atheist. Some may need religion to keep them in line.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Cearbhall]

Lest any atheist foolishly conclude that religion has no value look at the previous few posts. It would seem religion is the only reason one person is not a dangerous sociopath.

Oh, I'm definitely glad it exists in certain cases. The threat of hell and other spiritual consequences definitely keeps some people from doing horrible things. Particularly, selfish people and individuals who lack the critical thinking skills that are necessary to arrive at social contract theory and other secular theories of morality. I'm just not sure whether those benefits outweigh the bad things that are done because of religion. It's a difficult thing to quantify.

 

[keith99]

Oh, I'm definitely glad it exists in certain cases. The threat of hell and other spiritual consequences definitely keeps some people from doing horrible things. Particularly, selfish people and individuals who lack the critical thinking skills that are necessary to arrive at social contract theory and other secular theories of morality. I'm just not sure whether those benefits outweigh the bad things that are done because of religion. It's a difficult thing to quantify.

It is an exceptionally difficult thing to weigh. Especially since many conflicts that are religious on the surface also involve geopolitical issues to a degree that the conflict was all but sure to happen anyway.

And of course it is all but impossible to tell if religion prevented or caused atrocities in such conflicts on net..

 

[stevevw]

Of course he doesn't, because Jesus said you should hate your family.

Now great crowds accompanied him, and he turned and said to them, “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. (Luke 14:25-27 ESV)

This is a reference to being a disciple. Hate sounds like a strong word, but Jesus is not saying hate others. He is saying that they need to put following him first and sacrificing their own desires and pleasures to do Gods will. There is a cross to bear as you may miss out on things according to the way of the world. the bible talks about brothers and sisters opposing each other and sons defying fathers in the end times. Because as far as the kingdom of heaven is concerned and eternal life those who follow God will come into conflict with the ways of this world. A father and son may not see eye to eye and there is a spiritual conflict going on where people will persecute people of God even if they are family and friends. Satan ridicules God and wants to bring him down. So anyone who is of God will be made out to be a fool or a trouble maker and one that is out of step with the rest of secular society.

 

[Cearbhall]

I dont think you are being objective though. You are wanting to say that a christian is determined by whatever someone says they are. You could get 10 different interpretations as to what they think a Christian is.

Yes, which means that in order to be objective, I can't be the one who decides which interpretation to use. I have to just accept the labels that they give themselves. I think you're misunderstanding the concept of objectivity in the context of research. It's just about removing bias.

I am saying if you want to know what a Christian is then you go to the book that is written on Christianity.

There are way more than ten interpretations of that book. I would run into the exact same problem.

You refer to the leader of Christianity Jesus Christ. If you want to know the criteria of Jehovah witness you go to the governing principles and mission statement of Jehovah witness. You dont rely on individuals giving their person opinion.

Yes, you do.

All a demographic survey will show is x amount of people have identified with belonging to a religion. It doesn't tell you that they practice that religion.

Exactly. A demographic survey doesn't claim to do anything more. That's why we have separate questions that measure religiosity.

Many people put on forms they fill out that they are catholic because thats what they were born into. But they havnt been near a catholic church for years.

That's fine. In some countries, such as the UK, being Christian is more of a cultural identity than a spiritual identity for a lot of people. That's why their religious demographics are basically the same as in the US, even though a much lower percentage of UK residents actually believe in God. It's not up to researchers to decide whether that form of religious identity is valid or not.

 

[JGG]

This is a reference to being a disciple. Hate sounds like a strong word, but Jesus is not saying hate others. He is saying that they need to put following him first and sacrificing their own desires and pleasures to do Gods will. There is a cross to bear as you may miss out on things according to the way of the world. the bible talks about brothers and sisters opposing each other and sons defying fathers in the end times. Because as far as the kingdom of heaven is concerned and eternal life those who follow God will come into conflict with the ways of this world. A father and son may not see eye to eye and there is a spiritual conflict going on where people will persecute people of God even if they are family and friends. Satan ridicules God and wants to bring him down. So anyone who is of God will be made out to be a fool or a trouble maker and one that is out of step with the rest of secular society.

Funny, historically speaking, these "people of God" have persecuted and still persecute others.

 

[stevevw]

Yes, which means that in order to be objective, I can't be the one who decides which interpretation to use. I have to just accept the labels that they give themselves.

No because they are unreliable and are subject to how and what that person thinks and sees things at the time. The true interpretation of a Christian and how he should behave and be is in the bible. Christ himself the one that all base their Christianity on states what is required and the disciples are writing gospels and Paul is writing letters of instruction to the church saying what is required.

There are way more than ten interpretations of that book. I would run into the exact same problem.

But there is only one that is in line with the teachings of Christ in being a christian. The bible is clear about what is required to enter the kingdom of heaven. It is mans reworking of the words in the bible and mixing and twisting it with his own intentions and motives that adds all this extra stuff. He then justifies it under the name of religion. But when you put if to the test it fails time and time again as you check what the bible says. But Satan uses this because it looks so good and convincing at first until you discover the truth behind it all.

Yes, you do.

I'm talking about the instruction book of how they should be. Not when they have moved away from using those instructions. If you want to be a mechanic you refer to the manual. You dont start saying well i think its this way or that according to what i think. They may believe in themselves that the carby goes back a certain way but it is only from the instruction manual that you find the correct way it is done and should be. The IRA conflict is between Catholics and protestants. Both go by the bible but have some difference which is not in the bible. But they believe in blowing up people to make their point. Does Jesus teach this. So they can say they are Christians and Catholics till the cows come home. But they are no better than a mafia hit man disguising their actions as religious justification..

Exactly. A demographic survey doesn't claim to do anything more. That's why we have separate questions that measure religiosity.

Then how can that then be so specific in saying how and what a christian is. If its so broad and unspecific. Extra questions will determine a more accurate picture. If someone identifies as catholic but the question then asks how often do you go to church or are you involved with the church and practice that religion they will get a better picture. If they say no then it can be determined they are a catholic by birth and not practicing catholic that does all the things that a practicing catholic does. So they are just saying they are a catholic but they are not doing the actions of a catholic. Many today say they are catholic simply because it is on their birth certificate and nothing else.

That's fine. In some countries, such as the UK, being Christian is more of a cultural identity than a spiritual identity for a lot of people. That's why their religious demographics are basically the same as in the US, even though a much lower percentage of UK residents actually believe in God. It's not up to researchers to decide whether that form of religious identity is valid or not.

Yes but for truth in whether that person is a practicing Christian you have to differentiate between those who just say they are and those who are actually living as a christian. Its the same for anything. You cant make the judgement that a christian is based on what someone says it is as it could be many different answers which are based on incomplete understanding of the info or personal opinion. There has to be a set criteria for what is a christian ie being Christ like as it says in the bible. Thats why the bible says there will not be many Christians in the end and there will be many false prophets and religions.

 

[Cearbhall]

No because they are unreliable and are subject to how and what that person thinks and sees things at the time.

That's all researchers need and want to know when they're doing a survey of religious affiliation/identity.

The true interpretation of a Christian and how he should behave and be is in the bible.

If there's a journal published by a religious organization or other institution that accepts subjective research methods, feel free to conduct research in that way and send your articles to them. Just don't expect mainstream, scientific research journals to accommodate that.

But there is only one that is in line with the teachings of Christ in being a christian.

Now we're just going in circles because you keep ignoring the reality of religion. Some Christians wouldn't agree with you, and some who would agree with you wouldn't agree with your interpretation of the Bible. There's no way to choose and be objective.

 

[JGG]

The true interpretation of a Christian and how he should behave and be is in the bible.

And it just happens to be that that is your interpretation?

Christ himself the one that all base their Christianity on states what is required and the disciples are writing gospels and Paul is writing letters of instruction to the church saying what is required.

Could you list what is required?

 

[Devnet]

I really feel the need to ask: do you honestly want a bunch of atheists deciding whether or not self-professed Christians (including yourself) meet the requirements that the atheists decide the Bible sets out for who is and is not a Christian? Because I'm telling you now that you won't like the way that ends.

 

[quatona]

I really feel the need to ask: do you honestly want a bunch of atheists deciding whether or not self-professed Christians (including yourself) meet the requirements that the atheists decide the Bible sets out for who is and is not a Christian? Because I'm telling you now that you won't like the way that ends.

 

[JGG]

I really feel the need to ask: do you honestly want a bunch of atheists deciding whether or not self-professed Christians (including yourself) meet the requirements that the atheists decide the Bible sets out for who is and is not a Christian? Because I'm telling you now that you won't like the way that ends.

We get to decide? I was asking him to reveal the requirements for being a Christian.

 

[keith99]

I really feel the need to ask: do you honestly want a bunch of atheists deciding whether or not self-professed Christians (including yourself) meet the requirements that the atheists decide the Bible sets out for who is and is not a Christian? Because I'm telling you now that you won't like the way that ends.

If you were replying to who I think you were he would not like the results no matter who decided, except himself.

 

[stevevw]

And it just happens to be that that is your interpretation?
How do you mean, My interpretation is that a christian should be like how the bible says. Or actually is like how the bible says.


Could you list what is required?

Well apart from the 10 commandments which are still valid. Jesus taught many things we should be to enter the kingdom of heaven.

There are the beatitudes.
Blessed are the poor in spirit,for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God. Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
Gospel of St. Matthew 5:3-10

The beautitudes are part of the sermon on the mount. But you will have to read that. It goes into many qualities we need to inherit the kingdom of God. Like how you should pray. Don't be a hypocrite making sure everyone sees you doing good and praying like your the holy one. But pray to god in private and speak to him personally. There are other things like love your neighbor as yourself, turn the other cheek.
Other teachings such as.
"do good to those who hate you,"
"and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,"
"Judge not, that you be not judged
"whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven."
"Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven."[FONT=book antiqua,palatino]19:17; "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."[/FONT][FONT=book antiqua,palatino]19:18,19; "You shall not murder’, ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ You shall not steal,’ You shall not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[/FONT]
19:21; "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come follow Me."
19:23-26; "Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Listing of the Teachings of Jesus Christ

The parable are more teachings like [SIZE=-1]
The Sower and the Seeds (Mark 4:3-9; Matt 13:3-9; Luke 8:5-8)
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]The Laborers in the Vineyard or The Generous Employer (Matthew 20:1-16)[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
The Hidden Treasure (Matthew 13:44)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The Pharisee and the Publican (Luke 18:9-14)
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]The Tower Builder and The Warring King (Luke 14:28-32)[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
The Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37)[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
The Lost Coin (Luke 15:8-10)[/SIZE]

There are many more to many to list that teach us how to be and how to inherit the kingdom of heaven. But they are clear and cannot be misinterpreted.
The Parables of Jesus

But it is when you accept Jesus into your heart and you are born again. You are not having to remember all these teachings as the spirit of God within you is changing you to be like this anyway more and more. The fruits of the spirit show us what the qualities should be if we are born again and living in the spirit of God.

Galatians 5:22-23 tells us, “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.”

As opposed to acts of the sinful nature in Galatians 5:19-21, “The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Read more: What is the fruit of the Holy Spirit?

There is also 1 Corinthians 13 But here is the essence of it.
​

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Corinthians+13

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

So all in all I dont think there is any room for misinterpretation. Being patient, kind, loving, self control, forgiving, gentle, peace makers, merciful, meek, righteous, pure of heart, honest, not self seeking, treating others as you would want to be treated, calm, not vengeful, not envious, not easily angered ect. All these things are in the new testament either direct from Jesus or from his disciples teaching us how to be.
​

 

[Cute Tink]

So all in all I dont think there is any room for misinterpretation. Being patient, kind, loving, self control, forgiving, gentle, peace makers, merciful, meek, righteous, pure of heart, honest, not self seeking, treating others as you would want to be treated, calm, not vengeful, not envious, not easily angered ect. All these things are in the new testament either direct from Jesus or from his disciples teaching us how to be.

In your opinion, how many people actually fit all of those criteria at all times?

 

[Cearbhall]

I really feel the need to ask: do you honestly want a bunch of atheists deciding whether or not self-professed Christians (including yourself) meet the requirements that the atheists decide the Bible sets out for who is and is not a Christian? Because I'm telling you now that you won't like the way that ends.

Thank you. This is a very helpful way of refocusing what I'm trying to say. It's not up to researchers to decide who is and isn't Christian, whether the researchers are Christian or not, because choosing any one interpretation would leave out a lot of Christians and be biased. Stevevw seems to be assuming that he wouldn't be in that group and that all researchers would agree with his interpretation of Christianity over every other interpretation.

If you were replying to who I think you were he would not like the results no matter who decided, except himself.

This seems to be exactly the problem. What Stevevw doesn't understand is that most Christians feel the same way. No matter how strongly he feels about it, his opinion isn't more important to researchers than the opinions of other Christians. There's no way to choose and remain objective. I thought this was a fairly simple concept, especially for someone who's allegedly been studying for 40 years.

Moving on, I suppose.