Atheist morality.

[keith99]

In your opinion, how many people actually fit all of those criteria at all times?

Any who could do this could also keep the Law perfectly. Thus having no need for Christ.

Oops.

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Someone was talking about this earlier and I brought up that the atheists I know seem to take a moral stand according to what is politically correct wherever they live. Am I missing something? Is there a moral standard around the world that atheists go by or is it true that their moral fiber is determined by prevailing political winds?

The answer to that is : Professed Atheists do not have nor want an absolute Standard of Morality or Ethics ; they view such absolutism as an affront to being a 'freethinker' and they turn from anything that would come against complete autonomy and necessity to be their own authority in life. It IS possible for an Atheist to commit a moral act however, so we should not say that they are incapable ; just that they wish to reserve the 'right' to pick n choose how to live regardless of definitive right or wrong. Primarily, its the prevailing culture they live in which has somewhat of an impact on their decision making ability ..and if its the american culture , then it is certainly one of permissibility in the name of pleasure and acquisition. Therefore , it is primarily based on personal opinion to follow whatever one desires instead of a concrete compass such as from the absolute moral law Prescriber (viz. God) which all other standards pale in by comparison .

What is very interesting to note is : An Atheist demands that no absolute moral law standard(s) govern his/her actions , choices, lifestyles, behavior, etc.....but when someone else commits a moral violation on them , their reaction is such that they suddenly understand that there really are absolute moral laws . ONLY if they had a feeling of indifference after being morally violated, would their moral relativism be a credible philosophy. So it boils down to this : 'Ill do as I please in life cause its my life and im in charge and damn be to Anyone who tells me how to live......... but please don't violate me morally because your view of morality might permit you to do so' . A rather strange fallacious concept id say. But then again, everything to do with atheism whether it be sociologically or as a worldview for origins and sustenance of the universe ..., is that way (an irrationality) .

The exposing of atheistic morality and ethics was clearly provided by external unbiased Studies found in this recent CF Formal Debate : http://www.christianforums.com/t7805623/

 

[Belk]

The answer to that is : Professed Atheists do not have nor want an absolute Standard of Morality or Ethics ; they view such absolutism as an affront to being a 'freethinker' and they turn from anything that would come against complete autonomy and necessity to be their own authority in life. It IS possible for an Atheist to commit a moral act however, so we should not say that they are incapable ; just that they wish to reserve the 'right' to pick n choose what to live according to regardless of right or wrong. Therefore , it is primarily based on personal opinion to follow whatever one desires instead of a concrete compass such as from the absolute moral law Prescriber (viz. God) .

What is very interesting to note is : An Atheist demands that no absolute moral law standard(s) govern his/her actions , choices, lifestyles, behavior, etc.....but when someone else commits a moral violation on them , their reaction is such that they suddenly understand that there really are absolute moral laws . ONLY if they had a feeling of indifference after being morally violated, would their moral relativism be a credible philosophy. So it boils down to this : 'Ill do as I please in life cause its my life and im in charge and damn be to Anyone who tells me how to live......... but please don't violate me morally because your view of morality might permit you to do so' . A rather strange fallacious concept id say. But then again, everything to do with atheism whether it be sociologically or as a worldview for origins and sustenance of the universe ..., is that way (an irrationality) .

The exposing of atheistic morality and ethics was clearly provided by external unbiased Studies found in this recent CF Formal Debate : http://www.christianforums.com/t7805623/

Stop trying to speak for me. You have no idea what I think or want and are no where close to understanding me or my motivations. Your study is about external attitudes and the fact that you keep misrepresenting it shows the fallacy of your position that you are my moral better.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

The answer to that is : Professed Atheists do not have nor want an absolute Standard of Morality or Ethics ; they view such absolutism as an affront to being a 'freethinker' and they turn from anything that would come against complete autonomy and necessity to be their own authority in life. It IS possible for an Atheist to commit a moral act however, so we should not say that they are incapable ; just that they wish to reserve the 'right' to pick n choose how to live regardless of definitive right or wrong. Primarily, its the prevailing culture they live in which has somewhat of an impact on their decision making ability ..and if its the american culture , then it is certainly one of permissibility in the name of pleasure and acquisition. Therefore , it is primarily based on personal opinion to follow whatever one desires instead of a concrete compass such as from the absolute moral law Prescriber (viz. God) which all other standards pale in by comparison .

What is very interesting to note is : An Atheist demands that no absolute moral law standard(s) govern his/her actions , choices, lifestyles, behavior, etc.....but when someone else commits a moral violation on them , their reaction is such that they suddenly understand that there really are absolute moral laws . ONLY if they had a feeling of indifference after being morally violated, would their moral relativism be a credible philosophy. So it boils down to this : 'Ill do as I please in life cause its my life and im in charge and damn be to Anyone who tells me how to live......... but please don't violate me morally because your view of morality might permit you to do so' . A rather strange fallacious concept id say. But then again, everything to do with atheism whether it be sociologically or as a worldview for origins and sustenance of the universe ..., is that way (an irrationality) .

The exposing of atheistic morality and ethics was clearly provided by external unbiased Studies found in this recent CF Formal Debate : http://www.christianforums.com/t7805623/

Are you ever gonna stop and listen to what we're telling you or are you gonna keep misrepresenting atheism because it makes you feel better about yourself?

 

[TheyCallMeDavid]

Are you ever gonna stop and listen to what we're telling you or are you gonna keep misrepresenting atheism because it makes you feel better about yourself?

Actually , I do ... because the infallibility of Gods Word addresses it specifically in Romans 1:18-22 plus I used to be a professed Atheist of 10 adult years . Further, I debate atheists all the time so I know quite well what atheism is and the mind of an atheist besides.

Ive listened to what atheists tell me, and none of it is reasonable or rationale ; further, you can have reason or rationale in an atheistic worldview -- only in a theistic worldview. Reason and rationale assume a reasonable Universe where there is logic , but, the traditional atheist worldview of materialism and naturalism cant produce such completely different entities. So, listen to the Theist because the Theist has the worldview that allows for logic, reason, and rationale. Just say NO to atheism. Many have and are so thankful they did. Especially when eternity begins.

 

[Nithavela]

You don't debate atheists, you talk at atheists.

 

[bhsmte]

You don't debate atheists, you talk at atheists.

More like preaches.

But hey, some can't help themselves, it comes natural.

 

[keith99]

I find it both amusing and disturbing that someone can claim to understand the atheist mindset.

Atheism consists of just one thing. Not believing in the existence of any God. Even that covers a huge range, from one who considers themselves extremely open to evidence but will not claim belief until some level of evidence is presented to those who are dogmatic that there is no God and would not be convinced by any possible evidence.

Heck I actually get a bit annoyed some of the time when I see someone has a Christian icon rather than a denominational one. An annoyance I have no moral right to as my icon tells even less. But it is convenient when someone has a denominational icon. That at least gives me some vague idea of their mindset. Still a huge range, but something.

It must be nice to be able to know so much from so little. It is like figuring out my like of dislike of other sports by knowing I'm not big on baseball.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

Actually , I do ... because the infallibility of Gods Word addresses it specifically in Romans 1:18-22 plus I used to be a professed Atheist of 10 adult years . Further, I debate atheists all the time so I know quite well what atheism is and the mind of an atheist besides.

Ive listened to what atheists tell me, and none of it is reasonable or rationale ; further, you can have reason or rationale in an atheistic worldview -- only in a theistic worldview. Reason and rationale assume a reasonable Universe where there is logic , but, the traditional atheist worldview of materialism and naturalism cant produce such completely different entities. So, listen to the Theist because the Theist has the worldview that allows for logic, reason, and rationale. Just say NO to atheism. Many have and are so thankful they did. Especially when eternity begins.

See, there you go again. I'm sure I'm not the first to tell you that atheism isn't a philosophy. It isn't a code of ethics. Atheism answers one, very specific question; Do you believe in God(s)? That's it.

Anytime you try to attach specific philosophies regarding the ethics of atheists, you misrepresent atheists everywhere. Perhaps you had very specific ideas when you were an atheist but that doesn't mean we all subscribe to those same ideas.

Heck, even Christians disagree with each other on some of the most important tenets of their faith. If you get together 350 Christians, you are likely to get 350 different interpretations of scripture. Where's the objectivity in that?

There are Christians that are total pacifists and would never kill even in self defense. Then there are Christians that believe Jesus would blow Satan away with a 10 gauge had he had one in his time. They easily justify killing another man with self defense. Who's right and who's wrong and who gets to decide who's right and who's wrong in this scenario?

 

[Cute Tink]

plus I used to be a professed Atheist of 10 adult years .

You were only what you considered to be an atheist for 10 years. You've never been me or any other atheist. You cannot speak as to how I think or what I think, or you would have ceased this futile and ignorant line of reasoning long ago. Apparently, based on what I've seen you write before, you were quite the hedonist and, therefore, you assume that we are all the same.

Further, I debate atheists all the time so I know quite well what atheism is and the mind of an atheist besides.

And what you have heard, time and time again, is that what you define as atheism is not what atheism is. Clearly, based on the fact that the content of your personal definition of atheism has never changed, you have not debated atheists at all. Debate implies actually listening to, considering and addressing the opponent's argument. The fact that you still don't acknowledge what atheism is shows you have not done so.

 

[Chany]

Actually , I do ... because the infallibility of Gods Word addresses it specifically in Romans 1:18-22 plus I used to be a professed Atheist of 10 adult years . Further, I debate atheists all the time so I know quite well what atheism is and the mind of an atheist besides.

Ive listened to what atheists tell me, and none of it is reasonable or rationale ; further, you can have reason or rationale in an atheistic worldview -- only in a theistic worldview. Reason and rationale assume a reasonable Universe where there is logic , but, the traditional atheist worldview of materialism and naturalism cant produce such completely different entities. So, listen to the Theist because the Theist has the worldview that allows for logic, reason, and rationale. Just say NO to atheism. Many have and are so thankful they did. Especially when eternity begins.

Really? Because your argument's bad.

First, having a deity that can suspend the natural laws and defy our universe doesn't exactly promote a logical and consistent universe.

Second, there is no "traditional atheist worldview". The only thing that connects one atheist to another is the rejection of god claims. After that, all bets are off. Atheists don't need to be materialists. Just because a number are does not make all of them. I could, for example, hold that there are metaphysical laws that have always been in existence and still be an atheist.

Third, you have not demonstrated that materialism entails a illogical universe by definition. You assume that logic and reason must be metaphysical entities that transcend the material. I don't see why that has to be true and why logic and reason couldn't be concepts used to describe the behavior of the universe. Much like the law of gravity is not an actual entity, but merely a description of a phenomena, the law of logic is a description of a phenomena. X=X is not a metaphysical entity; it is merely a description that, if something exists, it's the same as itself.

To be continued.

 

[Gadarene]

The answer to that is : Professed Atheists do not have nor want an absolute Standard of Morality or Ethics ; they view such absolutism as an affront to being a 'freethinker' and they turn from anything that would come against complete autonomy and necessity to be their own authority in life. It IS possible for an Atheist to commit a moral act however, so we should not say that they are incapable ; just that they wish to reserve the 'right' to pick n choose how to live regardless of definitive right or wrong. Primarily, its the prevailing culture they live in which has somewhat of an impact on their decision making ability ..and if its the american culture , then it is certainly one of permissibility in the name of pleasure and acquisition. Therefore , it is primarily based on personal opinion to follow whatever one desires instead of a concrete compass such as from the absolute moral law Prescriber (viz. God) which all other standards pale in by comparison .

What is very interesting to note is : An Atheist demands that no absolute moral law standard(s) govern his/her actions , choices, lifestyles, behavior, etc.....but when someone else commits a moral violation on them , their reaction is such that they suddenly understand that there really are absolute moral laws . ONLY if they had a feeling of indifference after being morally violated, would their moral relativism be a credible philosophy. So it boils down to this : 'Ill do as I please in life cause its my life and im in charge and damn be to Anyone who tells me how to live......... but please don't violate me morally because your view of morality might permit you to do so' . A rather strange fallacious concept id say. But then again, everything to do with atheism whether it be sociologically or as a worldview for origins and sustenance of the universe ..., is that way (an irrationality) .

The exposing of atheistic morality and ethics was clearly provided by external unbiased Studies found in this recent CF Formal Debate : http://www.christianforums.com/t7805623/

TCMD, lying for Jesus again.

 

[PsychoSarah]

In your opinion, how many people actually fit all of those criteria at all times?

No one, I think the expectations of the bible in what is good is purposely set up to be impossible, to ensure people have guilt and have committed sins they need Jesus to wash away. If people were actually capable of doing no wrong and being without sin on their own, then technically they could get into heaven without belief.

 

[andy b]

as a catholic/christian Jesus is the standard i try to aspire to in morals, but if im honest i think everyone has a moral compass pre set already in them.Im not sure what sets it parents,friends.tv,religion,family , whatever.But i know i have a distinct view on right and wrong and its real hard for me to go against it no matter who says what.I suppose its the same for atheists, well i know it is the same, its kinda funny i talk about atheists as though they are an alien species

 

[stevevw]

The thing is with secular society there are no consistent set of morals. Things like equal rights, censorship laws and the fact that everyone has to be included waters down any foundation that can be built to have any legs to stand on. For example i heard an ad the other day promoting sex shops. They were taking the approach that they were good for relationships and were needed. But we know that they promote sexual promiscuity and perverseness as well.

So we have to take all that is offered because they have a right to operate on the high street and the rights to exist in the first place. So it is acceptable to allow this within a secular society and its all justified. The same with the internet and porn, censorship laws which are allowing more and more promiscuous behavior and many other areas in life. Young people are being sexualised as models and they are acting more and more like adults. Pedophilia is now growing more from this and its almost as though some are believing it is a normal thing which is crazy.

So any chance of a solid foundation in making some standards and Guidelines is destroyed. This to me is always the thin edge of the wedge. What is justified as being acceptable negates any good and is over taken by the corruptible and before you know it it is allowing all sorts of things to happen.

But when we put God first and follow his will we are having a clear set of morals and guidance that will be the same always. It cant be corrupted or compromised and can stand up to all scrutiny. But accepting Christ is not just about the laws or morals alone and abiding by them and always falling short. We are no longer subjected to the power of the law but are made new in the spirit of God. So we are living by the spirit of God and not the power of the law because of an obligation. We are controlled by the spirit of God through the sacrifice of Jesus blood on the cross. The holy spirit dwells in us and where there is Gods spirit there will be no fleshly desires. They are opposed to each other and cannot reside in the same place.

 

[Ana the Ist]

The thing is with secular society there are no consistent set of morals. Things like equal rights, censorship laws and the fact that everyone has to be included waters down any foundation that can be built to have any legs to stand on. For example i heard an ad the other day promoting sex shops. They were taking the approach that they were good for relationships and were needed. But we know that they promote sexual promiscuity and perverseness as well.

So we have to take all that is offered because they have a right to operate on the high street and the rights to exist in the first place. So it is acceptable to allow this within a secular society and its all justified. The same with the internet and porn, censorship laws which are allowing more and more promiscuous behavior and many other areas in life. Young people are being sexualised as models and they are acting more and more like adults. Pedophilia is now growing more from this and its almost as though some are believing it is a normal thing which is crazy.

So any chance of a solid foundation in making some standards and Guidelines is destroyed. This to me is always the thin edge of the wedge. What is justified as being acceptable negates any good and is over taken by the corruptible and before you know it it is allowing all sorts of things to happen.

But when we put God first and follow his will we are having a clear set of morals and guidance that will be the same always. It cant be corrupted or compromised and can stand up to all scrutiny. But accepting Christ is not just about the laws or morals alone and abiding by them and always falling short. We are no longer subjected to the power of the law but are made new in the spirit of God. So we are living by the spirit of God and not the power of the law because of an obligation. We are controlled by the spirit of God through the sacrifice of Jesus blood on the cross. The holy spirit dwells in us and where there is Gods spirit there will be no fleshly desires. They are opposed to each other and cannot reside in the same place.

Do you know what god's morality is?

 

[PsychoSarah]

The thing is with secular society there are no consistent set of morals. Things like equal rights, censorship laws and the fact that everyone has to be included waters down any foundation that can be built to have any legs to stand on. For example i heard an ad the other day promoting sex shops. They were taking the approach that they were good for relationships and were needed. But we know that they promote sexual promiscuity and perverseness as well.

So we have to take all that is offered because they have a right to operate on the high street and the rights to exist in the first place. So it is acceptable to allow this within a secular society and its all justified. The same with the internet and porn, censorship laws which are allowing more and more promiscuous behavior and many other areas in life. Young people are being sexualised as models and they are acting more and more like adults. Pedophilia is now growing more from this and its almost as though some are believing it is a normal thing which is crazy.

So any chance of a solid foundation in making some standards and Guidelines is destroyed. This to me is always the thin edge of the wedge. What is justified as being acceptable negates any good and is over taken by the corruptible and before you know it it is allowing all sorts of things to happen.

But when we put God first and follow his will we are having a clear set of morals and guidance that will be the same always. It cant be corrupted or compromised and can stand up to all scrutiny. But accepting Christ is not just about the laws or morals alone and abiding by them and always falling short. We are no longer subjected to the power of the law but are made new in the spirit of God. So we are living by the spirit of God and not the power of the law because of an obligation. We are controlled by the spirit of God through the sacrifice of Jesus blood on the cross. The holy spirit dwells in us and where there is Gods spirit there will be no fleshly desires. They are opposed to each other and cannot reside in the same place.

You do realize that the idea of an innocent child developed in our society less than 100 years ago right? I mean, in the early 1900s kids were having full time jobs and drinking alcohol. Gosh, back in biblical times it wasn't unusual for an 8 year old girl to be married to a 30+ year old man.

And it isn't as if the bible has a clear position on every little action a human being can do. For all we know in the eyes of god watching TV is immoral because you could be using that time for worship, or some other such thing like that. Yeah, religion doesn't exactly provide any more consistency in morals than just being secular does.

 

[Cearbhall]

The thing is with secular society there are no consistent set of morals. Things like equal rights, censorship laws and the fact that everyone has to be included waters down any foundation that can be built to have any legs to stand on.

I have no idea what you're trying to say in that second sentence. Could you reword it?

For example i heard an ad the other day promoting sex shops. They were taking the approach that they were good for relationships and were needed. But we know that they promote sexual promiscuity and perverseness as well.

Because some people recognize that certain activities which you would consider to be promiscuous and perverse can actually be good for relationships.

So any chance of a solid foundation in making some standards and Guidelines is destroyed. This to me is always the thin edge of the wedge. What is justified as being acceptable negates any good and is over taken by the corruptible and before you know it it is allowing all sorts of things to happen.

Not at all. It's just that the standards that are winning out aren't the ones that you prefer. The absence of the stringencies of your own moral code does not imply a complete lack of moral standards.

But when we put God first and follow his will we are having a clear set of morals and guidance that will be the same always.

You can see why this would be an illogical choice for someone who does not believe that the Abrahamic God exists.

 

[JGG]

Well apart from the 10 commandments which are still valid. Jesus taught many things we should be to enter the kingdom of heaven.

There are the beatitudes.
Blessed are the poor in spirit,for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are they who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.
Blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God. Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
Gospel of St. Matthew 5:3-10

The beautitudes are part of the sermon on the mount. But you will have to read that. It goes into many qualities we need to inherit the kingdom of God. Like how you should pray. Don't be a hypocrite making sure everyone sees you doing good and praying like your the holy one. But pray to god in private and speak to him personally. There are other things like love your neighbor as yourself, turn the other cheek.
Other teachings such as.
"do good to those who hate you,"
"and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you,"
"Judge not, that you be not judged
"whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven."
"Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven."[FONT=book antiqua,palatino]19:17; "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."[/FONT][FONT=book antiqua,palatino]19:18,19; "You shall not murder’, ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ You shall not steal,’ You shall not bear false witness,’ ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[/FONT]
19:21; "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come follow Me."
19:23-26; "Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Listing of the Teachings of Jesus Christ

The parable are more teachings like [SIZE=-1]
The Sower and the Seeds (Mark 4:3-9; Matt 13:3-9; Luke 8:5-8)
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]The Laborers in the Vineyard or The Generous Employer (Matthew 20:1-16)[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
The Hidden Treasure (Matthew 13:44)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]The Pharisee and the Publican (Luke 18:9-14)
[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]The Tower Builder and The Warring King (Luke 14:28-32)[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
The Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37)[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
The Lost Coin (Luke 15:8-10)[/SIZE]

There are many more to many to list that teach us how to be and how to inherit the kingdom of heaven. But they are clear and cannot be misinterpreted.
The Parables of Jesus

But it is when you accept Jesus into your heart and you are born again. You are not having to remember all these teachings as the spirit of God within you is changing you to be like this anyway more and more. The fruits of the spirit show us what the qualities should be if we are born again and living in the spirit of God.

Galatians 5:22-23 tells us, “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.”

As opposed to acts of the sinful nature in Galatians 5:19-21, “The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.”

Read more: What is the fruit of the Holy Spirit?

There is also 1 Corinthians 13 But here is the essence of it.
​

1 Corinthians 13 - If I speak in the tongues of men or of - Bible Gateway

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

So all in all I dont think there is any room for misinterpretation. Being patient, kind, loving, self control, forgiving, gentle, peace makers, merciful, meek, righteous, pure of heart, honest, not self seeking, treating others as you would want to be treated, calm, not vengeful, not envious, not easily angered ect. All these things are in the new testament either direct from Jesus or from his disciples teaching us how to be.
​

Can you number those, in point form? Like a checklist.

 

[stevevw]

Do you know what god's morality is?

As I said its not really about morality but being born again and living in the spirit of God. You are no longer living according to the flesh but to the spirit of God. The spirit of God is opposed to the things of the flesh and they both cannot exist together.

So the morals or qualities of God are the fruits of the spirit and the things that Christ taught and displayed.

So it is not being subject and trying to always conform to a set of morals and laws and always falling short and having to atone ones self. It is a complete change in nature that is taken on when one is born again by accepting Christ into their lives and the spirit of God lives in their heart.

Galatians 8:16- 26.
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.