Atheist here (Ask me anything)

[kenblaster5000]

I think we can all agree that you can feel wind...

They sure did feel the wind in the upper room in the book of Acts.

 

[Dragons87]

People who claim to examine but never need to fix are either intellectually dishonest or not very smart. Either you have convinced yourself that you are always right or you aren't smart enough to ever discover your own mistakes.

People who never examine are intellectually stunted.

I think Augustine and Origen and Thomas Aquinas, I think, would bristle at your assertion.

Or they simply see no need to fix. I understand where you're coming from, but the fact that something is broken doesn't necessarily mean that I must fix it. Hence, there is a "need" to fix but no "need" to fix.

Oh. The limitations of the English language. But that's by the point, I believe.

 

[Dragons87]

I find it interesting that so many Christians are obsessed with telling de-converts that they never were Christians -- that their entire lives leading up to their deconversion was a lie.

Perhaps it's a sign of insecurity.

In addition to ephraimanesti's excellent post, especially in saying that there is nothing more firm than presence in God's grace, I would append this analogy:

Your claim to deconversion is akin to someone speaking English, drinking tea, moaning about the weather, loving cricket and adoring the Queen, but who never actually acquired British nationality, denounce that nationality as something undesirable.

I don't claim that your life before your decision to be a firm atheist was a lie, but I think you pinned the wrong label to your experience. It's like saying that the grapes you didn't get to taste are sour.

The obsession is there only because I am keen for you not to assume that you have experienced was anything comparable to what you should have experienced.

 

[lighthouse_hope]

I find it interesting that so many Christians are obsessed with telling de-converts that they never were Christians -- that their entire lives leading up to their deconversion was a lie.

Perhaps it's a sign of insecurity.

It's more a theological position.

Many Christians feel that

(1) Grace cannot be resisted and
(2) your salvation + change of nature is assured for all eternity,

then -> if you de-Convert you were never a Christian in the first place.

 

[lighthouse_hope]

Then how can you know if God exists?

I don't. I'm making an existencial option.

 

[Tinker Grey]

It's more a theological position.

Many Christians feel that

(1) Grace cannot be resisted and
(2) your salvation + change of nature is assured for all eternity,

then -> if you de-Convert you were never a Christian in the first place.

Yes, I am quite aware of that. I am also aware of the armenian tradition that says one can lose one's salvation.

Both positions are supportable by scripture. (And this statement is denied by many in most positions.)

To some extent, we take the position we are raised with. If we weren't raised with it, we take the position of those who had a hand in our conversion.

OTOH, there are those who feel the need to tell me I was never a Christian. Why? I know I am not one now. So what I was then really has little bearing on anything. So why tell this "misguided soul?" To feel better about oneself? To re-convert me?

I question the sincerity of the "re-convert" position. To call my previous life a lie isn't going to warm the cockles of my heart. To say I mislabeled myself implies self delusion. That ain't gonna help either. It suggests that I didn't know what it meant to be a Christian. It suggests that I didn't mean it when I asked Jesus into my heart. It suggests, ironically, that grace doesn't work--that Christ would take my ill-spoken but sincere words and make them good. But rather if the formula isn't right, God will blow you off. (This is no god worthy of worship.)

If I am lost--if there is a god to be lost from--then convince me. Teach me the truth. Extol the logic or mysticism or whatever it is that gets you thru the night. But don't denigrate what took up 44 years of my 46. Don't call me a liar. I know what I believed (fully nicene). I know that I really believed it.

If I wasn't a Christian, no one is. If I was deceived, so might you be. If I lost my salvation, then look to yours.

 

[Dragons87]

OTOH, there are those who feel the need to tell me I was never a Christian. Why? I know I am not one now. So what I was then really has little bearing on anything. So why tell this "misguided soul?" To feel better about oneself? To re-convert me?

For me, merely as a lament.

I question the sincerity of the "re-convert" position. To call my previous life a lie isn't going to warm the cockles of my heart. To say I mislabeled myself implies self delusion. That ain't gonna help either. It suggests that I didn't know what it meant to be a Christian. It suggests that I didn't mean it when I asked Jesus into my heart. It suggests, ironically, that grace doesn't work--that Christ would take my ill-spoken but sincere words and make them good. But rather if the formula isn't right, God will blow you off. (This is no god worthy of worship.)

I also grew up in a family of Christian parents, and I got baptised when I was 14. I was well versed in my arguments too, attended church regularly, and started serving.

But now I don't call that life Christian. I can only call my current life Christian. The difference in me and my understanding is obvious.

Yes, I call "previous life" a lie, but not your previous life--I mean mine. My previous religion life was not my Christian life.

I call "mislabelling" a self-delusion, but not in labelling your life, but mine. In self-delusion I mislabelled my previous religious life as "Christian".

I suggest "didn't know Christianity", not to you, but to myself. I really didn't know what Christianity was, even though I was, as you had been, in church circles.

I meant it when I asked Jesus into my life, but it didn't mean he responded instantly.

It doesn't suggest grace doesn't work, rather there is a timetable for grace to work. I felt that fully, as God waited a full 8 years between my baptism and my true convesion.

If I am lost--if there is a god to be lost from--then convince me. Teach me the truth. Extol the logic or mysticism or whatever it is that gets you thru the night. But don't denigrate what took up 44 years of my 46. Don't call me a liar. I know what I believed (fully nicene). I know that I really believed it.

I know you did, Tinker. I really do. The problem for me was, I knew I did too, when in fact I didn't.

If I wasn't a Christian, no one is. If I was deceived, so might you be. If I lost my salvation, then look to yours.

I, too, used to think that if I wasn't a Christian, no one is. But I admit that I have been deceived all my life, and never understood or experienced salvation. But no longer. Now my heart yearns to extol my Lord my God.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I appreciate your restatement, Dragons87. I accept that you mean what you say when you were referring only to yourself. I hope you can understand that your previous post and others' don't read that way on a first reading.

As you can tell, this tendency of some to mind-read strangers across the internet really irks me. It is intellectually dishonest. It is mean-spirited. And, it is arrogant. (I am not implying that you are any of these things.)

So, please forgive me for going off.

 

[CoderHead]

However, I disagree substantively with your implied view that religion, especially Christianity, is an unhealthy crutch for those insecurities. Christianity is the only cure to those insecurities, but Christianity is tough pill to swallow!

If Christianity were only a crutch, then I'd feel better about it. Since it's been taken oh so many steps further and has permeated every aspect of life, I feel it truly is unhealthy. You look at other religions as harmful because they aren't the one true religion, but fail to see the startling similarities and potential for abuse in all of them, including your own...even when it's been so painfully demonstrated in the past.

As far as being a tough pill to swallow, I couldn't agree more. As a child it was easy for me to accept the mystical concepts of religion, but then I also believed in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy. It was when I put aside my childish thinking that I finally realized I was being deceived. So when I dropped Santa, et al, I also dropped invisible deities.

If the world is the source of our insecurities, it would be nonsensical to turn back to the world to look for the crutch.

What healthy crutches does the world offer? Does it even attempt to offer a cure?

Why do you need a crutch? I don't. The world is what the world is, I don't need to cling to something in order to deal with it. To me, that's the definition of a secure person. If you need a crutch - even a healthy one - then you're insecure.

How can you be sure that wind exists. You cannot see it?

We can feel it, measure it, explain it, predict it, generate it, and see the effects it has on other objects. Do you seriously want to get into this argument? You'll lose.

But don't denigrate what took up 44 years of my 46. Don't call me a liar. I know what I believed (fully nicene). I know that I really believed it.

If I wasn't a Christian, no one is. If I was deceived, so might you be. If I lost my salvation, then look to yours.

^^ This.

 

[Dragons87]

I appreciate your restatement, Dragons87. I accept that you mean what you say when you were referring only to yourself. I hope you can understand that your previous post and others' don't read that way on a first reading.

As you can tell, this tendency of some to mind-read strangers across the internet really irks me. It is intellectually dishonest. It is mean-spirited. And, it is arrogant. (I am not implying that you are any of these things.)

So, please forgive me for going off.

I do apologise for misunderstanding. I must clarify that what I say stems from my personal experience, and of course it would be presumptuous and rude of me to judge based on that. However, I hope it would not be a big ask to invite you to reflect on your experience.

 

[Dragons87]

If Christianity were only a crutch, then I'd feel better about it. Since it's been taken oh so many steps further and has permeated every aspect of life, I feel it truly is unhealthy. You look at other religions as harmful because they aren't the one true religion, but fail to see the startling similarities and potential for abuse in all of them, including your own...even when it's been so painfully demonstrated in the past.

I agree with you there. Religion has so much potential to be abused by humans. By the world.

But so has philosophy. And science. Should we advocate that therefore philosophy and science are "bad"?

As far as being a tough pill to swallow, I couldn't agree more. As a child it was easy for me to accept the mystical concepts of religion, but then I also believed in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy. It was when I put aside my childish thinking that I finally realized I was being deceived. So when I dropped Santa, et al, I also dropped invisible deities.

Well, Christianity has a visible deity.

Why do you need a crutch? I don't. The world is what the world is, I don't need to cling to something in order to deal with it. To me, that's the definition of a secure person. If you need a crutch - even a healthy one - then you're insecure.

Yes, I am insecure on my own, and I am honest enough to admit it. I do hold the view that people who think they are secure simply have wool pulled over their eyes, but I hold the view respectfully, and I must add that I consider that I used to be one of those people too.

 

[CoderHead]

Well, Christianity has a visible deity.

I'd argue that, but it wouldn't be productive. Suffice it to say that hasn't been my experience.

I do hold the view that people who think they are secure simply have wool pulled over their eyes, but I hold the view respectfully, and I must add that I used to be one of those people too.

What is this wool and who pulls it? You're saying that it's unhealthy not to need some kind of crutch? That's odd. Maybe I should take up knitting.

 

[lighthouse_hope]

Yes, I am quite aware of that. I am also aware of the armenian tradition that says one can lose one's salvation.

I agree with that.

To some extent, we take the position we are raised with. If we weren't raised with it, we take the position of those who had a hand in our conversion.

That's unavoidable.

OTOH, there are those who feel the need to tell me I was never a Christian. Why? I know I am not one now. So what I was then really has little bearing on anything. So why tell this "misguided soul?" To feel better about oneself? To re-convert me?

Well, that's something I can't answer for them.

I question the sincerity of the "re-convert" position. To call my previous life a lie isn't going to warm the cockles of my heart. To say I mislabeled myself implies self delusion. That ain't gonna help either. It suggests that I didn't know what it meant to be a Christian. It suggests that I didn't mean it when I asked Jesus into my heart. It suggests, ironically, that grace doesn't work--that Christ would take my ill-spoken but sincere words and make them good. But rather if the formula isn't right, God will blow you off. (This is no god worthy of worship.)

That god isn't worthy of worship, perhaps dread at most, but not worship.

If I am lost--if there is a god to be lost from--then convince me. Teach me the truth. Extol the logic or mysticism or whatever it is that gets you thru the night. But don't denigrate what took up 44 years of my 46. Don't call me a liar. I know what I believed (fully nicene). I know that I really believed it.

I'd rather prefer to listen from each other. I don't think I'm smarter or holier than anybody.

 

[Dragons87]

I'd argue that, but it wouldn't be productive. Suffice it to say that hasn't been my experience.

It's not just Jesus I meant. I also meant Christians, from whom Jesus shines.

What is this wool and who pulls it? You're saying that it's unhealthy not to need some kind of crutch? That's odd. Maybe I should take up knitting.

From my experience, it was myself and the world who pulled the wool over my eyes and made me rely on a worldly crutch. That crutch for me was pride.

This wasn't done deliberately, at least not in the beginning. All of us have wool pulled over our eyes to start off with.

But it is Christ who uncovers our eyes and leads us to see the truth, and the shakiness of the crutch I was holding on to. My pride is worth nothing against the world.

This truth, when we see it, will compel us to change our ways, ditch our old crutch and switch to the new one given by Christ.

To be Christian is to be changed. Therefore anyone who claims to be Christian, but has not changed, is not Christian. That surely was the case for myself.

 

[CoderHead]

It's not just Jesus I meant. I also meant Christians, from whom Jesus shines.

You're speaking metaphorically though. If your God is visible only through the actions and attitudes of His followers, then He's still invisible. That's completely intangible! Christians don't have a corner on the compassion market, you know. Decent human beings, regardless of faith, can show what you would call "Christ-like" qualities. Does that mean Jesus is "shining through them?" No, of course not.

When I see a Christian, I don't see Jesus. I see the human being who is good or bad in and of themselves and their actions.

 

[Dragons87]

You're speaking metaphorically though. If your God is visible only through the actions and attitudes of His followers, then He's still invisible. That's completely intangible! Christians don't have a corner on the compassion market, you know. Decent human beings, regardless of faith, can show what you would call "Christ-like" qualities. Does that mean Jesus is "shining through them?" No, of course not.

When I see a Christian, I don't see Jesus. I see the human being who is good or bad in and of themselves and their actions.

Ah. Forgive me. Then you may take only the Jesus part of the answer and I will accept that we will not discuss the historicity of Jesus here.

Although...is this your only response to my entire post?

 

[CoderHead]

Although...is this your only response to my entire post?

I didn't really feel the need to respond to the rest of it. If you hold that once a person has tasted the fruit of the spirit they're forever changed, then that's fine. I don't want or need to argue that. If your problem was pride and finding Jesus relieved you of that, that's cool. I don't see that I have a pride problem, I've just accepted life and death as-is and feel secure in that.

 

[Dragons87]

I didn't really feel the need to respond to the rest of it. If you hold that once a person has tasted the fruit of the spirit they're forever changed, then that's fine. I don't want or need to argue that. If your problem was pride and finding Jesus relieved you of that, that's cool. I don't see that I have a pride problem, I've just accepted life and death as-is and feel secure in that.

Cool.

 

[Skeptic90]

Cool.

So any other question theists want to ask us atheists? Anything you guys always wanted to ask?

 

[Skeptic90]

Just got word that this post is in a new forum, so, hello Non-christian religion section!

So, like I was saying, any further questions/comments/ concerns?