Atheism

[mkatzwork]

an athiest for thirty years with numerous famous books, just decided to become a theist. And it's not good enough? Oh I think the arguments are conclusive, but not everyone in the world does. Doesn't mean they aren't good arguments though. Rarely does the masses believe the right things.

Which atheist?

 

[createdtoworship]

Which atheist?

Antony Flew

 

[Eudaimonist]

an athiest for thirty years with numerous famous books, just decided to become a theist. And it's not good enough?

No, it's not! Not even to the tiniest, slightest extent.

And personally I was not impressed by Flew's philosophical judgment, and especially his scientific judgment, even when he was an atheist. But even if I had been one of his admirers, all I would care about are the arguments, not the fact that he had converted. His conversion would not matter at all.

If a high-profile Christian -- someone you admire, and who had published many well-written books in favor of Christianity -- were to publicly declare that he or she had become an atheist, would that be good enough for you to change your mind about atheism? Be honest, now.

And if the answer is "no", why the double-standard?


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Dave Ellis]

The bible disproves what you say, so. It doesn't make sense people 2000 years ago would write lies etc like that.

The bible doesn't disprove anything I've said. Likewise, it makes perfect sense why people would write what they did 2,000 years ago... Either they were deluded, or to keep people in line or to start a new religion out of self-interest. It's the same reason why Joseph Smith wrote similar lies in the 1800's when he founded Mormonism, and why L Ron Hubbard wrote a brand new religion from scratch in the '50s. Every religion is founded on bogus claims, Christianity is no different.

The bible is not a fairy tale, when I read it, I found truth. I got happy and felt love and peace. When I read it sometimes it's like living water in my heart.

How do you know what you read is truth? Just because it may make you feel good, doesn't make it true.

(Ephesians 5:26) That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

(John 17:17) Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

(John 7:38) He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

(Captain Kirk 1:27 TOS) I'm a soldier, not a diplomat. I can only tell the truth.

An example is when I had been away from The Word of God (the Holy Bible) once. I had a spiritual thirst. I felt literal thirst too, and it got quenched by reading the bible. The heart is our inner-being - our spirit. We consist of spirit, soul and body. An example is that we feel aching etc and other things in our hearts, connected to Sins like bitterness etc. How can this be? It proves we have a spirit.

If you were physically thirsty, I would recommend a glass of water... the bible is quite dry.

And that doesn't prove we have a spirit at all, that shows we have emotion. There is no evidence that spirits or souls exist.

 

[Jonathan95]

If you were physically thirsty, I would recommend a glass of water... the bible is quite dry.

And that doesn't prove we have a spirit at all, that shows we have emotion. There is no evidence that spirits or souls exist.

I was really spiritually thirsty, thus I also felt a physical thirst. Not sure if you feel a physical thirst everytime. But water couldn't quench the thirst I felt.

The bible is quite dry?

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.


How can the heart ache/become hardened when we have emotions like bitterness? It's only flesh and blood? So it must be the spirit.

There's no evidence souls or spirits exist? Yes, there are many videos and pictures of real angels etc.

 

[Eudaimonist]

There's no evidence souls or spirits exist? Yes, there are many videos and pictures of real angels etc.

eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Jonathan95]

eudaimonia,

Mark

Angels are spirits, the bible says so. What else do you believe they are? So many people have testified how angels saved them from accidents or similar. Are they just lying or how else did they get saved miraculously?

 

[TheQuietRiot]

Angels are spirits, the bible says so. What else do you believe they are? So many people have testified how angels saved them from accidents or similar. Are they just lying or how else did they get saved miraculously?

It doesn't have to be a lie. They can simply be honestly mistaken.
Thousands of people die daily from strange and horrific accidents that could not of possibly been influenced by themselves. Where are their angels?

 

[Jonathan95]

It doesn't have to be a lie. They can simply be honestly mistaken.
Thousands of people die daily from strange and horrific accidents that could not of possibly been influenced by themselves. Where are their angels?

The angels weren't assigned to protect those people.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Angels are spirits, the bible says so. What else do you believe they are? So many people have testified how angels saved them from accidents or similar. Are they just lying or how else did they get saved miraculously?

They were mistaken. If that constitutes a 'lie', then they were lying, but I wouldn't consider it a lie to simply be mistaken.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Angels are spirits, the bible says so. What else do you believe they are?

Nonexistent.

So many people have testified how angels saved them from accidents or similar. Are they just lying or how else did they get saved miraculously?

They weren't saved "miraculously". They were just naturally fortunate.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Wiccan_Child]

The angels weren't assigned to protect those people.

How do you differentiate between someone who survives by pure chance, or by the actions of doctors or firemen, and those who survive because of angels?

 

[Jonathan95]

How do you differentiate between someone who survives by pure chance, or by the actions of doctors or firemen, and those who survive because of angels?

It depends. Many people testify how angels protected them etc.

 

[TheQuietRiot]

It depends. Many people testify how angels protected them etc.

It depends on how many people testify?

 

[Wiccan_Child]

It depends. Many people testify how angels protected them etc.

I don't doubt, but that doesn't make it so. In every case where these things have been put under scrutiny, it's always turned out to be a natural cause.

Often, it's a case of the survivor's fallacy: they get into a serious accident, like a car pile up, and they survive. Since this is an unlikely outcome, they assume that it can't be chance, that there must be an active cause that made them survive - and they conclude God, or angels, or spirits, or ghosts, or whatever, is what saved them.

The truth is that they really were just lucky. If there's an accident where there's a mere 1 in 1000 chance of survival, then you're still going to get some people survive by sheer chance, But those actual individuals are hard-pressed to accept this statistic, because the human brain isn't wired that way - it demands a cause. So, it invents one: angels (or gods, etc).

So I don't doubt for a second that people believe they were saved, but it's never been shown that these 'miracles' are anything more than merely unlikely events. So, testimony means nothing, as it's either a) unverifiable, b) exaggerated/made up, or c) studied and debunked. People get things wrong, and there are real phenomena that make people think it's something supernatural when, in fact, it's not.

So - how do you differentiate between something unlikely that happens that people think is due to angels, and an actual intervention by an angel?

 

[createdtoworship]

If a high-profile Christian -- someone you admire, and who had published many well-written books in favor of Christianity -- were to publicly declare that he or she had become an atheist, would that be good enough for you to change your mind about atheism? Be honest, now.

most people don't have an intellectual problem with theism, but an accountability problem. They are resultantly much more liberal in their lifestyles. (not always but most of the time).

 

[Wiccan_Child]

most people don't have an intellectual problem with theism, but an accountability problem. They are resultantly much more liberal in their lifestyles. (not always but most of the time).

Ah yes, the "people turn from God because they don't want to be held accountable". Do people actually believe that line? Do they not see the glaring fallacy, not to mention the enormous arrogance of it?

 

[createdtoworship]

Ah yes, the "people turn from God because they don't want to be held accountable". Do people actually believe that line? Do they not see the glaring fallacy, not to mention the enormous arrogance of it?

I am feeling pretty good about myself right now....

but actually it is usually that people don't want to commit to christianity is the reason why they are not christian. Theism is similiar to that I suppose.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Well, yeah. I don't want to commit to anything not demonstrably true.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I am feeling pretty good about myself right now....

but actually it is usually that people don't want to commit to christianity is the reason why they are not christian. Theism is similiar to that I suppose.

Most people don't believe in Christianity (or any other religion, for that matter) because they don't believe it's true. Why aren't you a Muslim, Jain, Hindu, or Buddhist? Because you don't believe they're true. Not because you have some strange phobia to accountability, not because of some spiritual warfare that turns you away from the One True Religion that is Jainism, not because you have hardened your heart towards Brahaman, not because you secretly know Odin exists but just hate him - you just don't believe those religions are true.

That's why it's so silly to accuse atheists of hating God, or of shirking accountability - it's simply not true, and just belies the disconnect between reality and the theist's worldview.