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Atheism vs. Christian

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PaulA135711

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DuranGodawood,

I realize that many atheists would prefer to engage in historical revisionism or ignore history.

That is not surprising given the history of atheism.

In addition, many atheists support the absurd and counter historical notion that Jesus never existed. This is especially hypocritical given that atheists have so often referred to the consensus of academics to support their pet notions. And it certainly isn't the consensus of historians that Jesus never existed.
 
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PaulA135711

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Gene2MemE,

Pride and denialism often hinder atheists. It is not at all surprising that you would demand evidence of me and then not respond to my questions and ignore the historical evidence that I provided. Prideful people are often reluctant to admit error.

The Secular Coalition of America has instituted an "Atheist Pride Day". Have you ever heard of the Amish celebrating "Amish Pride Day"? Have you ever heard of evangelical Christians celebrating "Evangelical Pride Day"?

"But now God is dead. You superior men, this God was your greatest danger. Only since he is in the grave, have you risen again. Only now comes the great noontide; only now the superior man will be – Lord!" - Friedrich Nietzsche

Nietzsche died in 1900.
 
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Gene2memE

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Gene2MemE,

Pride and denialism often hinder atheists.

Pot, meet the kettle.

It is not at all surprising that you would demand evidence of me and then not respond to my questions and ignore the historical evidence that I provided.

In a question and response format, it is usually considered polite to answer the initial question before responding with a question of your own.

I had written out two rather lengthy replies to your questions.

However, after some reflection I decided that you're not the sort of person I enjoy engaging with, or find intellectual satisfaction debating. From the responses I have seen from you, I believe we will never be able to move past mutually exclusive conceptions of reality and neither side will make a single concession. I then concluded that this sort of increasingly polarised discussion is ultimately pointless (and endlessly frustrating).

So, rather than continuing to argue and engage, I deleted my contributions and took my philosophical bat and ball home. Neither of us is playing the game to the same set of rules, so continuation of play is pointless.

I'll pop up to correct any egregious factual errors I see, but apart from that expect to see little of me.

Enjoy the rest of your time here. Bye. :wave:
 
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Cimorene

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This has the tone of a kid sneering about how he is sure his school's football team will beat a rival rather than it being an invitation to adults for thoughtful dialogue.

I think this is a troll thread tbh.
 
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PaulA135711

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Gene@MemE,

You timing to disengage in debate is awfully suspicious.

It came directly after I asked you some reasonable questions and provide relevant historical statistics.

“A young man who wishes to remain a sound Atheist cannot be too careful of his reading” (Ex-atheist C.S. Lewis, Surprised by Joy).

In 1990, the atheist philosopher Michael Martin indicated there was a general absence of an atheistic response to contemporary work in the philosophy of religion and in jest he indicated that it was his "cross to bear" to respond to theistic arguments.[3] Yet, in 1994, Michael Martin was criticized for his eleventh hour cancellation of his debate with Greg Bahnsen

The majority of philosophers of religion, or those who have extensively studied the issue of the existence of God, are theists (72 percent).[6] Source: http://www.conservapedia.com/Rebuttals_to_atheist_arguments

In a letter to the agnostic and evolutionist Richard Dawkins which was subsequently quoted by The Daily Telegraph, Oxford professor Daniel Came wrote concerning Dawkins' refusal to debate the Christian apologist William Lane Craig: "The absence of a debate with the foremost apologist for Christian theism is a glaring omission on your CV and is of course apt to be interpreted as cowardice on your part."

In 2010, agnostic professor Eric Kaufmann, who specializes in religion/irreligion/demographics/politics, wrote:
“ Worldwide, the march of religion can probably only be reversed by a renewed, self-aware secularism. Today, it appears exhausted and lacking in confidence... Secularism's greatest triumphs owe less to science than to popular social movements like nationalism, socialism and 1960s anarchist-liberalism. Ironically, secularism's demographic deficit means that it will probably only succeed in the twenty-first century if it can create a secular form of 'religious' enthusiasm."

In August 19, 2011, Fox News reported:
“ American Evangelical theologian William Lane Craig is ready to debate the rationality of faith during his U.K tour this fall, but it appears that some atheist philosophers are running shy of the challenge.

This month president of the British Humanist Association, Polly Toynbee, pulled out of an agreed debate at London’s Westminster Central Hall in October, saying she “hadn’t realized the nature of Mr. Lane Craig’s debating style.”

Lane Craig, who is a professor of philosophy at Talbot School of Theology in La Mirada, Calif., and author of 30 books and hundreds of scholarly articles, is no stranger to the art of debate and has taken on some of the great orators, such as famous atheists Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris. Harris once described Craig as “the one Christian apologist who has put the fear of God into many of my fellow atheists”.

Responding to Toynbee’s cancellation, Lane Craig commented: "These folks (atheists) can be very brave when they are alone at the podium and there's no one there to challenge them. But one of the great things about these debates is that, it allows both sides to be heard on a level playing field, and for the students in the audience to make up their own minds about where they think the truth lies."[19]


On August 19, 2011, the leading British Anglican weekly newspaper the Church Times wrote:
“ The director of Professor Craig’s tour, Peter May, said: “If Craig is ‘wrong about everything else in the universe’ and his arguments for the existence of God are so easy to refute, it is hard to see why the leading atheist voices in the country are running shy of having a debate with him.
 
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Cimorene

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That pathetic excuse for a movie, God's Not Dead, makes abundantly clear what some Christians think the term "atheist" represents.

Tbh I think the only Christians that think that live in some bubble & have never met an atheist irl. Most Christians I know thought that movie was terrible & kind of mean.
 
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Cimorene

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From your link:


Two factors that are critically important to understand when attempting to compare the rates of sexual harassment, assault, and rape between countries is how cultural attitudes significantly influence whether such incidences are reported, and the differences in how they are recorded if they are. In 2005 Sweden reformed their sex crime litigation, making the legal definition of rape far wider than it was previously, and more expansive than the current parameters in many other countries. Victims there are more likely to come forward and report crimes against them, and to publicly speak about harassment than some are in other countries. The way the crimes are recorded also can make it appear that the rate of frequency is higher in Sweden than it actually is. As an example, if a woman in Sweden accused her boyfriend of raping her nightly for 90 days, each incident could be recorded separately, whereas in many other countries it would be listed as one victim, one type of crime, and one record, and therefore wouldn't have the same impact on their statistics.

On a somewhat related note - I just heard a NPR report during my run about sexual assaults on the deeply conservative campuses of BYU and Bob Jones University, and how the schools' policies make victims very reluctant to come forward. At BYU victims who report being raped are investigated by the university's strict Honor Code office for other violations leading up to their assault, like drinking alcohol, and can be harshly penalized. This has understandably made victims substantially more reluctant to come forward than ones on other campuses where they can make reports with impunity. Scathing reports have shown that Bob Jones has a history of blaming the victims of sexual assaults rather than the perpetrators.
Bob Jones University Blamed Victims of Sexual Assaults, Not Abusers, Report Says



Victims of sexual abuse who did seek help not only faced potential sanctions from the university, but faith-shattering, psychologically destructive censure.



If you look at the statistics regarding sexual violence and other misconduct on the campuses of BJU and BYU they might appear to be low in comparison to those at other universities, but I think the numbers are grossly misleading. I also strongly suspect that there are Christians of all ages - not just at these colleges - who are the victims of sexual abuse but are more reluctant to make official reports or obtain professional help than nonreligious victims.

It's heartbreaking victims of sexual abuse are treated that way. Shame on those people at Bob Jones who treated them that way! That's not Christian at all. I agree that the stats from those colleges are probably WAY off.
 
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PaulA135711

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Atheism and rape:

Christian apologist Kyle Butt wrote: "In fact, in my debate with Dan Barker, Barker admitted that fact, and stated that under certain circumstances, rape would be a moral obligation (Butt and Barker, 2009) source: http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=12&article=2333

Mass rape of German women by Soviet soldiers:

As Allied troops entered and occupied Germany during the latter part of World War II, mass rapes occurred in connection with combat operations and during the occupation which followed. Historians in the Western World generally conclude that the majority of the rapes were committed by Soviet servicemen.

The majority of the rapes happened in the Soviet occupation zone. Estimates of the number of German women sexually assaulted by Soviet soldiers have ranged up to 2 million.[6][7][8][9][10] The historian William Hitchcock declared that in many cases women were the victims of repeated rapes, some women experienced as many as 60 to 70 rapes.[11]

After the atheist leader of the Soviet Union Joseph Stalin received a complaint from Yugoslav politician Milovan Djilas about rapes in Yugoslavia, Stalin reportedly said that he should "understand it if a soldier who has crossed thousands of kilometres through blood and fire and death has fun with a woman or takes some trifle."[12] Also, when told that Red Army soldiers sexually assaulted German refugees, Stalin reportedly declared: "We lecture our soldiers too much; let them have their initiative."[13]

Only a handful of Soviet soldiers were ever court martialed for raping German women during the war. Source: Conservapedia's article on atheism and rape

Post Elevatorgate controversy, at an atheist convention, Rebecca Watson claimed: "Hundreds of atheists have informed me that either they wanted to rape me, someone should rape me so that I will loosen up or that no one would ever rape me because I am so ugly".

TheAmazingAtheist is YouTube's most subscribed to YouTube channel produced by an atheist and as of August of 2012 it had over 300,000 subscribers. In 2012, he viciously told a rape victim "you deserved it" and told her that her rapist "deserved a medal". He also told her that she should try to relive the rape in her mind.

Christian apologist Ken Ammi wrote concerning TheAmazingAtheist's comments directed towards a rape victim:
“ A frightening consideration is that it may very well be this personage’s worldview which leads him to such depths of malice...

He also told another woman:

"You’re lucky it wasn’t me. I’d have busted your ******* nose and raped you."

And has also offered a graphic descriptions of how he would rape a rape victim again.

This is in keeping with his modis operandi which, sadly, is a manner whereby some people get and keep a lot of attention. Of course, it is pathetic that some people are so very desperate for attention that they seek it regardless of whether it is good, bad or ugly.

This particular Atheist is the organizer of a group, aptly, called The Atheist Scum United and refers to himself as “God of the Godless,” “subhuman,” and “scumbag.” Could not have said it better ourselves.

But the belligerence does not stop at his victimization of rape victims but he also takes aim at the dead. He has referred to people who committed suicide due to bullying as having been "weak."

What such a person needs, truly needs, is love and prayer because they are obviously hurting very, very badly." source: http://www.truefreethinker.com/articles/atheism-and-rape-atheist-victimizes-rape-victim
 
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DogmaHunter

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Are you an editor there? Y'wanna maybe take a gander through this abortion of a page? Maybe trim out some of the arguments there which are wrong, which, to my knowledge, encompasses (hang on, lemme reread, it's been a while since I saw this page...)...

1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 9, and 10

Are all not just wrong, but trivially wrong by examination of a non-expert who knows the first thing about evolution.

11, 12, 13, 14 and 15 are ridiculously false as well.

Gotta love point 14 though. They couldn't help but to put that in, could they...
 
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Locutus

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There is an article on Atheism vs. Christianity at: http://www.conservapedia.com/Atheism_vs._Christianity

Once again, Jesus wins!

The article declares:

According to the University of Cambridge, historically, the "most notable spread of atheism was achieved through the success of the 1917 Russian Revolution, which brought the Marxist-Leninists to power."

Vitalij Lazarʹevič Ginzburg, a Soviet physicist, wrote that the "Bolshevik communists were not merely atheists but, according to Lenin's terminology, militant atheists."

Atheism is an idea which goes against common sense. Hence, its most notable spread was by militant atheists who used force/violence to spread it.

Interesting. Russians are among the most religious people on earth. They always have been.
 
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The Cadet

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If you want to make changes to the article or register a complaint on the articles talk page, it is easy to sign up as an editor at Conservapedia.

If I was interested in a completely futile task for the benefit of idiots who can instantly undo this work and don't understand or respect the issue, I would... Well, I'd probably kill myself first, but if I was interested in that, I would probably at least try to do it somewhere where I can actually save a life, like AltMedWiki. Cleaning up errors on Conservapedia is like sweeping up all the sand on Malibu Beach - the entire point of the beach is the sand, the people will complain, and the sand will come back almost instantly.
 
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Locutus

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For an idea to spread and persist, its got to offer something. Hope and inspiration will often do the trick in place of truth.

Some ideas spread and persist purely as a result of indoctrination. They can even be bad ideas, offering little to nothing - but successful indoctrination will ensure they survive.
 
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Eudaimonist

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Two factors that are critically important to understand when attempting to compare the rates of sexual harassment, assault, and rape between countries is how cultural attitudes significantly influence whether such incidences are reported, and the differences in how they are recorded if they are.

Yes, that is super-important to understanding Sweden (where I have lived for more than a decade). I've seen too much nonsense about how Sweden is the "rape capital of Europe".

And correlation does not establish causation. Even if Sweden did have a high rate of rape, that wouldn't necessarily be due to atheism.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Gene2memE

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11, 12, 13, 14 and 15 are ridiculously false as well.

Gotta love point 14 though. They couldn't help but to put that in, could they...

Yeesh, I just took a look at that...

Ouch.

Anyone want to do a take-down? I'll make start.

Lets see:

1. Evolution cannot explain artistic beauty, such as brilliant autumn foliage and the staggering array of beautiful marine fish, which originated before any human to view them.


Denis Dutton and The Art Instinct: Beauty, Pleasure, and Human Evolution Paperback disagrees.

Also, would I be right in suggesting this is an appeal to consequences fallacy? Or an appeal to nature fallacy? Or just a plain irrelevance.

Either way, human conceptual notions of beauty can be traced to evolutionary origins. See also: pattern recognition and sexual reproduction.

2. Evolution predicts that human intelligence should increase over time, blah, blah, blah, irrelevant and incorrect anecdotes


Does it? Where?

Also, the Flynn Effect is a thing... but it may not be related to evolution at all.

3. The current annual rate of extinction of species far exceeds any plausible rate of generation of species. Expanding the amount of time for evolution to occur makes evolution even less likely.

Correct. That's because humans have been busy upsetting various natural balances since we invented agriculture circa 12,000 years ago (actually probably much earlier than that, as we seem to have been hunting mega-fauna out of existence for at least 15,000 years). See New Zealand and the Moa for a good example of just how quickly we can wipe out entire species.

As for the second sentence, there have been (at least) five mass extinction events in earth's history, which wiped out at least 75% of the biodiversity on the planet.

I'm not sure why either sentence counts against evolution.

4. The Second Law of Thermodynamics establishes that everything in the world becomes more disordered over time, in the absence of intelligent intervention. The theory of evolution falsely claims that some systems can become more ordered over time, like an impossible perpetual motion machine.

The Second Law of Thermodynamics does nothing of the sort.
The Second Law of Thermodynamics applies to isolated systems. Earth is not an isolated system. Hello there Mr Sun.
Neither, does Evolution imply that life is becoming more ordered, only that life diversifies through a number of different mechanisms. Increased complexity and biological success does not necessarily mean life becomes "more ordered".

That's enough for now. I've got to go get on my bike. Literally.
 
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