Why Are Genocides Associated with Atheists and Evolutionists? Coincidence?

[Whyayeman]

Dorothy, here is what I wrote in post #43 last Tuesday:

'There are quite a few genocides throughout history which are specifically Christian. The Crusader armies in the 11th Century systematically slaughtered the Jews and Muslims as they conquered territory. That was pretty well everybody they encountered as there weren't many others. The Albigensian Crusade was specifically aimed at heretical Christians - the Cathars. There aren't any of them left. The Inquisition was another case of systematic killing. About 350,000 people were victims of judicial killing - to save their souls from damnation because they were 'secretly Jews'. This may not seem to be on the same scale, but proportionally similar given the populations of the periods.

There have been lots of genocides, many if not most of them justified by religion.'

It would not be difficult to find more examples of religiously inspired genocides and mass slaughters which might fall short of genocide by strict definition but are no less horrific.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Dorothy, here is what I wrote in post #43 last Tuesday:

'There are quite a few genocides throughout history which are specifically Christian. The Crusader armies in the 11th Century systematically slaughtered the Jews and Muslims as they conquered territory. That was pretty well everybody they encountered as there weren't many others. The Albigensian Crusade was specifically aimed at heretical Christians - the Cathars. There aren't any of them left. The Inquisition was another case of systematic killing. About 350,000 people were victims of judicial killing - to save their souls from damnation because they were 'secretly Jews'. This may not seem to be on the same scale, but proportionally similar given the populations of the periods.

There have been lots of genocides, many if not most of them justified by religion.'

It would not be difficult to find more examples of religiously inspired genocides and mass slaughters which might fall short of genocide by strict definition but are no less horrific.

In the case of the Crusades it wasn't just Jews and Muslims either, but other Christians. Most notably the Fourth Crusade which went totally off plan and ended up taking over Constantinople and ended up with several Latin Crusader States--eventually Byzantine authority was restored but it would never recover. Kind of a sore spot between Eastern and Western relations in Christianity.

The Crusades were awful, simply awful. Even contemporary Christian-authored accounts talk about how barbaric and grotesque the Crusades were.

"Here, when the siege had lasted twenty days, our people suffered excessive hunger. I shudder to tell that many of our people, harassed by the madness of excessive hunger,cut pieces from the buttocks of the Saracens already dead there, which they cooked, but when it was not yet roasted enough by the fire, they devoured it with savage mouth. So the besiegers rather than the besieged were tormented." - Fulcher of Chartres, The Chronicle, Book I, XXV, 2

That's a contemporary account by a Christian priest who was present during the besieging of the cities as the Crusader armies marched on to Jerusalem. And it's hardly the only one.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[MyOwnSockPuppet]

If we're talking genocides then don't forget Tengrism, whose most famous adherent was responsible for genocides that make the worst of the twentieth century look positively mild in comparison.

 

[Whyayeman]

We seem to be in agreement: genocides are not confined to atheist regimes. The originator of the discussion appears to be long gone. And I'll be off too.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dorothy, here is what I wrote in post #43 last Tuesday:

'There are quite a few genocides throughout history which are specifically Christian. The Crusader armies in the 11th Century systematically slaughtered the Jews and Muslims as they conquered territory. That was pretty well everybody they encountered as there weren't many others. The Albigensian Crusade was specifically aimed at heretical Christians - the Cathars. There aren't any of them left. The Inquisition was another case of systematic killing. About 350,000 people were victims of judicial killing - to save their souls from damnation because they were 'secretly Jews'. This may not seem to be on the same scale, but proportionally similar given the populations of the periods.

There have been lots of genocides, many if not most of them justified by religion.'

It would not be difficult to find more examples of religiously inspired genocides and mass slaughters which might fall short of genocide by strict definition but are no less horrific.

You probably don’t know that Christians and Jews and Muslims lived for centuries in Jerusalem under Muslim domination in peace and safety until the Muslim Turks invaded and started slaughtering them. IN RESPONSE, the Christians asked Europe for help.

The muslims still slaughter whole villages. The communists slaughtered millions. The Catholics (who are christo-pagans) also slaughteted christians in the Inquisition which went on for centuries. The protestants did not.

 

[Whyayeman]

Hiya Dorothy Mae
Actually I do know about the peaceful coexistence of Christians, Jews and Muslims throughout the enlightened centuries before the Crusades began. We need to consider that Spain was a mainly Muslim country for several centuries under what was then known as the Caliphate (without the ugly connotations that was has today). During this period of scholarship, prosperity and tolerance the Alhambra, the Mesquita and Real Alcazar were built to the admiration of all - and still great wonders today.

The Crusades were part of the destruction of that time of civilised values while much of the rest of Europe toiled in what we now call the Dark Ages. Yes, Catholics, led by ferocious Popes and voracious Kings - all done under the name of Christianity.

We could have done better without that sort of militant religion then - and I think we would be better off without it now.

 

[Strathos]

The Catholics (who are christo-pagans)

 

[Whyayeman]

Christo-Pagans?

That is a new one on me! The Catholic religion is just one branch of Christianity. I do understand that the various sorts of Christians don't always get on with each other. This has always been a puzzle to me. As I understand it, Christians are adjured to love one another, yet so often they seem to find issues to excuse themselves from this duty.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The Catholics (who are christo-pagans) also slaughteted christians in the Inquisition which went on for centuries. The protestants did not.

Your knowledge of Christian history, and historical Christianity, leaves a lot to be desired.

For one, Catholics are not "christo-pagans", they're Christians.
Secondly, Protestants did plenty of killing. From the Peasant's War in the Holy Roman Empire, the radical and violent acts of groups like the Zwickau Prophets and the Munster Rebellion, the execution of Michael Servetus in Geneva under the watch of John Calvin, to the turmoils in England between the shifting of power between Catholic and Protestant monarchs, to the Wars of Religion in Europe, to the Salem Witch Trials in Puritan Massachussets.

There is plenty of shame, guilt, and blood-stained hands for all of us.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Whyayeman]

Well, there you go!

A Catholic and a protestant at loggerheads. I am an atheist and so you might think me neutral. So, practise what your religion teaches. Love one another!

I am under no such obligation, of course.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Well, there you go!

A Catholic and a protestant at loggerheads. I am an atheist and so you might think me neutral. So, practise what your religion teaches. Love one another!

I am under no such obligation, of course.

Just in case it's not obvious, I'm a Protestant. Lutheran to be specific.

The "Catholic" under my name where it says "Evangelical Catholic" simply means Lutheran in this context.

I've also sometimes used the term "Wittenberg Catholic" (aka Lutheran), as opposed to Roman Catholic. In Lutheranism "Catholic" and "Protestant" are not mutually exclusive, we're both; depending on which angle you want to approach things at. We're Catholic because we retain the historic Catholic faith and never sought to break from the Catholic Church, the point was reform of the Catholic Church--that's why it is called the Reformation. We're Protestant because the term Protestant originated at the 2nd Imperial Diet at Speyer where the Lutheran princes of the Holy Roman Empire formally protested the imperial decree that said the princes had to enforce Roman [Catholic] practices and stomp out Evangelical (translation: Lutheran) practices. The princes who protested became known as "the Protestants" and their protest known as the Protestation at Speyer. It is from this that the term "Protestant" came to be applied not only to Lutherans, but also to the Reformed (Calvinists and Zwinglians), and eventually to just about everything that came out of the Reformation either directly or indirectly, and every modern group which came out of one of those earlier groups--hence Baptists, Quakers, Pentecostals, Methodists and all the like are still "Protestant".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Whyayeman]

Jolly good, ViaCrucis. None of this is new to me, or to any educated English person. We all know about the English Reformation. The Church of England is Catholic as well as Protestant. We are way off topic now, but these schisms do tend to how how Christians fail to love one another.

And sometimes this failure has led to slaughter on a grand scale. The Thirty years War was not a genocide in the accepted sense, but it was pretty bloody just the same. The long years of religious conflict in England are another example, with the burnings and beheadings.

I think I'd be almost ashamed to be a Christian.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Your knowledge of Christian history, and historical Christianity, leaves a lot to be desired.

Because I know the bits others ignore? I mention the whole story, not start with the part where Christians asked their brothers for help and call it “genocide.”

For one, Catholics are not "christo-pagans", they're Christians.

No, they believe in paganism given new names. Ever been to Rome? They know the old Roman gods (statutes) were just given Biblical names and told us so. Just picture the pope and imagine Jesus in that garb waving incense around.

Secondly, Protestants did plenty of killing. From the Peasant's War in the Holy Roman Empire, the radical and violent acts of groups like the Zwickau Prophets and the Munster Rebellion, the execution of Michael Servetus in Geneva under the watch of John Calvin, to the turmoils in England between the shifting of power between Catholic and Protestant monarchs, to the Wars of Religion in Europe, to the Salem Witch Trials in Puritan Massachussets.

You got single murders not genocide. Nothing like the muslims who wipe out whole villages to this day.

There is plenty of shame, guilt, and blood-stained hands for all of us.

Jesus says there’d be those who kill christians thinking they’re doing service to God. Obviously, they’re not Christians to God and his view is the only one that counts.[/quote][/quote]

 

[ViaCrucis]

Because I know the bits others ignore? I mention the whole story, not start with the part where Christians asked their brothers for help and call it “genocide.”

Because you ignore the full historical story and pick and choose what you want to suit your agenda.

No, they believe in paganism given new names. Ever been to Rome? They know the old Roman gods (statutes) were just given Biblical names and told us so.

I have been to Rome actually. I've even been to Vatican City. I couldn't see the Sistine Chapel because St. Peter's Square was crowded with several thousand people listening to Pope John Paul II deliver that Sunday morning's homily (this was back in 2003). Or at least that's what I assume what was going on.

Perhaps you could point to which Roman gods were given biblical names.

Just picture the pope and imagine Jesus in that garb waving incense around.

The Epistle to the Hebrews tells us that Jesus is our great high priest. Official papal vestments don't light a candle to the attire the Kohen Gadol was supposed to wear as per the instructions given in Scripture itself. And Jesus would have been very familiar with the use of incense, since incense was used in the Jewish Temple. Again, something commanded in the Bible.

If you have a problem with religious vestments and incense as a matter of principle, then you probably should read you Bible more.

You got single murders not genocide.

This shows me you didn't even pay attention to the incidents I mentioned, are completely unfamiliar with them, or at the very least didn't even bother to learn about them after hearing about them. The Peasant's War resulted in the death of thousands, not one or two individuals, but the massacre of thousands.

If you don't know these things, then learn them. Some of us have actually bothered to read a history book.

Nothing like the muslims who wipe out whole villages to this day. Jesus says there’d be those who kill christians thinking they’re doing service to God. Obviously, they’re not Christians to God and his view is the only one that counts.

Fortunately the Christian religion is about the fact that God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, in order to redeem, heal, rescue, and save the world. Through whom there is full pardon and forgiveness of sin, and a message of boundless and unconditional grace toward all sinners. And so, as a people called by the name of Christ to serve the world in love, compassion, mercy, with the Gospel of God's love on our lips we don't pick and choose which kinds of sinners we embrace and love; but rather we love all.

A fact that both Protestants and Catholics are guilty of ignoring.

-CryptoLutehran

 

[Whyayeman]

Play nicely, Christians! Remember your religion requires you to love one another. You should be ganging up on me, the Godless one, not squabbling amongst yourselves.

There are lots of mass killings attributed to Christian societies against co-religionists as well as genocides against non-Christians. Atheistic societies have their own rolls of shame too. The fact is that such organised murder is not the prerogative of atheist states such as Communists under Stalin and the Fascist regimes of Hitler and Mussolini.

It seems to me that religion does not reduce genocidal urges quite as much as one might expect, given the central tenets of Christian teaching, not least the teaching of its founder 'to love one another'.

 

[durangodawood]

....As I understand it, Christians are adjured to love one another, yet so often they seem to find issues to excuse themselves from this duty.

When the rules say love your neighbor, the convenient 'out' is to re-define "neighbor".

 

[ViaCrucis]

Play nicely, Christians! Remember your religion requires you to love one another. You should be ganging up on me, the Godless one, not squabbling amongst yourselves.

There are lots of mass killings attributed to Christian societies against co-religionists as well as genocides against non-Christians. Atheistic societies have their own rolls of shame too. The fact is that such organised murder is not the prerogative of atheist states such as Communists under Stalin and the Fascist regimes of Hitler and Mussolini.

It seems to me that religion does not reduce genocidal urges quite as much as one might expect, given the central tenets of Christian teaching, not least the teaching of its founder 'to love one another'.

I'm under no obligation to gang up on anyone. Further having heated discussion does not preclude loving another person.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Well, there you go!

A Catholic and a protestant at loggerheads. I am an atheist and so you might think me neutral. So, practise what your religion teaches. Love one another!

I am under no such obligation, of course.

We know atheists are under no such obligation but they seldom admit this. History has shown it to be true though.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I'm under no obligation to gang up on anyone. Further having heated discussion does not preclude loving another person.

-CryptoLutheran

Some people think loving others means you never disagree with them.