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Gracchus

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Just as a matter of idle curiosity: How many of them were atheists?

 
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createdtoworship

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God created man with free moral agency. Meaning they can choose to be saved, or choose to sin.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Red Herring. Big one too.... One worth mounting on your wall.
 
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Dave Ellis

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What!?! Pointing out the flaws in your logic is not a personal attack!

Wow....

How about you try addressing the points, which I did re-state in that post.
 
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Dave Ellis

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haven't you heard of terrible two's

two year old tantrums?

They are hardly guiltless. And only God knows to what extent. But He is justified in whatever He deems necessary.

if it is death, then most likely they will be in heaven


Actually, if I'm not mistaken the bible says to take unruly kids out to the edge of town and stone them to death....

Obviously you consider this a moral position, right? If you have kids, I'm assuming they've never misbehaved. Or, of course if they did you went though with God's Punishment and stoned them to death?
 
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Dave Ellis

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no, it's not moral to murder! Already discussed this. I see How you don't want to address your hypocrisy as well. Thats fine. But murder is not the same as killing.


The ironic thing is that you're accusing me of hypocrisy.

An infinitely loving being would forgive, not kill.
 
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Dave Ellis

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God created man with free moral agency. Meaning they can choose to be saved, or choose to sin.


But that contradicts things being predestined. If it was predestined for there to be a need for Jesus, then it's predestined that mankind will become sinners. It's impossible to "free-will" your way out of God's destiny for you.

Likewise, as I said before, if he designed and built your brain, he is responsible for your thought patterns. You'll be wired to believe, or not believe.
 
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Dave Ellis

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I don't see "moral agency" as having anything to do with being saved or not.

.


Good point.... Most Christians maintain that all that matters is acceptance in Jesus to be saved, morality is not all that relevant.
 
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createdtoworship

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I see you have been caught up in calvinism before. No, actually if God does in fact choose us on foreknowledge then He knew we would choose Him, and He chose us based on that knowledge. Like choosing the best players for your ball team.
 
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createdtoworship

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They aren't even self aware at that point! Name one sin that a kid that's a day or two old has the ability to carry out?

selfishness! They try to breast feed right away without any further courtesy to the mother.
 
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createdtoworship

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The law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, we don't live under the law anymore.
 
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createdtoworship

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I don't see "moral agency" as having anything to do with being saved or not.

.

well that means God would have to create people destined for Hell, in your view which is false. God is loving.
 
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Dave Ellis

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I see you have been caught up in calvinism before. No, actually if God does in fact choose us on foreknowledge then He knew we would choose Him, and He chose us based on that knowledge. Like choosing the best players for your ball team.


That's illogical... He can't know we'd choose him until he decides how to make us.

And why would he decide to create unbelievers then?
 
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Dave Ellis

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selfishness! They try to breast feed right away without any further courtesy to the mother.

Um... since when is a natural response from a being that isn't even self-aware yet selfishness?
 
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createdtoworship

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That's illogical... He can't know we'd choose him until he decides how to make us.

And why would he decide to create unbelievers then?

create a person with the ability to follow orders or not...


A= follow orders
B= not

how is it illogical to create a person with both abilities. Your not forcing them to choose B, you are not forcing them to choose A?

Secondly, if God is outside of space and time which I believe He is, then He knows the end from the beginning. He knows who will actually choose B and He decides on keeping those who choose A. Easy.
 
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Dave Ellis

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The law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, we don't live under the law anymore.

There's numerous examples in the New Testament that states the Old Testament laws are still valid.
 
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Dave Ellis

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well that means God would have to create people destined for Hell, in your view which is false. God is loving.


Well, if he knows that they're destined for hell, and he's loving, the best thing to do would be to not create that person in the first place.
 
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