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Atheism (3)

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Dave Ellis

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Since sin is dead apart from law, what happens if we live under law?

Romans 7:8 But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead.


Leviticus 23:14, 21, 31 It shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations.

Deuteronomy 11:1 Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, always

Deuteronomy 4:8-9 What nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day? ... teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man

Mathew 5:17-19 Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.

Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses.

Luke 16:17 It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail



There's a lot of Old and New Testament passages about how the law is forever, can't be changed and still applies....

On another note, if you're claiming that the Old Testament laws no longer apply, there's some unintended consequences that go along with what you're arguing.

For example, the 10 commandments also no longer apply. Homosexuality is no longer a problem, etc... Many of the major "Christian Causes" in politics haven't applied for 2,000 years if we toss out the Old Testament. Are you sure it doesn't apply anymore?
 
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Dave Ellis

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The key is though God knows whose names is in the book of life, we ourselves do not. The arguement of "why try since it is all predestined" falls short because predestination can only be used as a tool or excuse when those who are predestined know the end result for themselves personally.

The argument reeks of simple laziness and selfishness.


Hey, it's you guys that are claiming everything's predestined. I don't believe that stuff.... I'm just arguing against the inherent contradiction in the Christian worldview that says we somehow have free will but are also predestined.

It's an absurd argument, those are mutually exclusive attributes. If we have free will, then we are not predestined. If we are predestined, then there is no free will. You can't have both.
 
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Dave Ellis

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technically you don't own Him/Her, God does. And we treat animals the same as all of God's creations, with respect. Unless you want to eat him/her for breakfast, then thats a different story. Ham anyone?


Ah, I see.... So we have the moral capability of treating life with respect, but your God does not have that capability?
 
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ToddNotTodd

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create a person with the ability to follow orders or not...


A= follow orders
B= not

how is it illogical to create a person with both abilities. Your not forcing them to choose B, you are not forcing them to choose A?

Secondly, if God is outside of space and time which I believe He is, then He knows the end from the beginning. He knows who will actually choose B and He decides on keeping those who choose A. Easy.

Sigh...

I've pointed this out to you before. Others have as well. Lets try again...

your god could have created humans with the ability to sin but without the predilection to sin. And the ability to be non-believers but without the predilection to be non-believers. This would not violate free will.

But since people are non-believers, and people do horrible things to each other, it can only mean your god desires suffering and sending people to hell.
 
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Dave Ellis

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True...but still these individuals doomed may point others to Him. Sacrificing life for life has always been a part of how God does things.


Right, but if God is all powerful and omniscient.... he could easily work out another way where those people are pointed to him without people having to sacrifice their lives.

He has full control over the situation, the only reason those people are sacrificing themselves is because he's set it up that way.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Immoral by what or whose standard? man or God's?


It doesn't matter.... Christians often argue that Morality is objective.

If Morality is objective, than what is moral for us is also moral for God. Objective is objective, it either is moral, or it isn't. There's no special cases for anyone.

If God is a slave master, he's no better than your average KKK member from a moral basis.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Owning a slave isn't immoral. Treating a slave inhumanly one owns is.


So, burning them for all time in hell doesn't count as inhuman treatment?

Oh yeah, and owning a slave is absolutely immoral.
 
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Dave Ellis

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I've noticed that Christians have a habit of redefining words so that they don't resemble the definitions that everyone else uses.


I once had a Christian tell me my hat was God.

Oddly enough they didn't want to worship my hat when I asked them to.


It's just a word game they use to try to cling to the idea of God. What they fail to realise is if they redefine God to mean everything in existence, the term itself loses it's meaning.
 
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createdtoworship

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Sigh...

I've pointed this out to you before. Others have as well. Lets try again...

your god could have created humans with the ability to sin but without the predilection to sin. And the ability to be non-believers but without the predilection to be non-believers. This would not violate free will.

But since people are non-believers, and people do horrible things to each other, it can only mean your god desires suffering and sending people to hell.

I am not following your logic. Try using smaller words. Words we use in every day english.
 
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createdtoworship

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Ah, I see.... So we have the moral capability of treating life with respect, but your God does not have that capability?

we treat them with respect out of a separate command of God that all things "are good", His creation included.

God owns everything and respects everything in His ways, which are "above our ways"
 
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createdtoworship

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Leviticus 23:14, 21, 31 It shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations.

Deuteronomy 11:1 Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, always

Deuteronomy 4:8-9 What nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day? ... teach them thy sons, and thy sons' sons.

Ecclesiastes 12:13 Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man

Mathew 5:17-19 Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall nowise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven.

Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses.

Luke 16:17 It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail



There's a lot of Old and New Testament passages about how the law is forever, can't be changed and still applies....

On another note, if you're claiming that the Old Testament laws no longer apply, there's some unintended consequences that go along with what you're arguing.

For example, the 10 commandments also no longer apply. Homosexuality is no longer a problem, etc... Many of the major "Christian Causes" in politics haven't applied for 2,000 years if we toss out the Old Testament. Are you sure it doesn't apply anymore?

the ten commandments were modified and ratified by Christ. The rest we do not follow.

love is the only law we have now...

Matt 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
 
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Gadarene

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I am not following your logic. Try using smaller words. Words we use in every day english.

Open a new tab, type "define *word*" into the search engine. You really have no excuse here.

I'm not sure what word you're having trouble with? "Predilection"? "The"?

His argument is God could create us with the ability but not the tendency to sin. Some sins are obviously "easier" to refrain from than others - most people find the idea of child sexual abuse horrific, sickening, for example. So most people find it easy to not commit that wrong.

Why could God not have created us with a tendency to view all sins that way?
 
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Dave Ellis

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we treat them with respect out of a separate command of God that all things "are good", His creation included.

God owns everything and respects everything in His ways, which are "above our ways"


If it's truly above our ways, you would also have no idea about it.... so what right do you have to make assertions based on what is above you?
 
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Dave Ellis

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the ten commandments were modified and ratified by Christ. The rest we do not follow.

love is the only law we have now...

Matt 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


Really... so the ten commandments as we know them aren't actually tenets of Christianity?
 
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ToddNotTodd

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Open a new tab, type "define *word*" into the search engine. You really have no excuse here.

I'm not sure what word you're having trouble with? "Predilection"? "The"?

His argument is God could create us with the ability but not the tendency to sin. Some sins are obviously "easier" to refrain from than others - most people find the idea of child sexual abuse horrific, sickening, for example. So most people find it easy to not commit that wrong.

Why could God not have created us with a tendency to view all sins that way?

Yeah, what he said.
 
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createdtoworship

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Open a new tab, type "define *word*" into the search engine. You really have no excuse here.

I'm not sure what word you're having trouble with? "Predilection"? "The"?

His argument is God could create us with the ability but not the tendency to sin. Some sins are obviously "easier" to refrain from than others - most people find the idea of child sexual abuse horrific, sickening, for example. So most people find it easy to not commit that wrong.

Why could God not have created us with a tendency to view all sins that way?

all sin is still sin, and there is no way around it. The law is like a balloon one prick and it's all over. One sin = we die. We must be saved by grace.
 
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