At What Point Do You Think You Are Truly Saved?

ViaCrucis said:

Repentance is our response to the Law, the Law brings knowledge of sin and with it condemnation of our sin; and thus comes despair over our sin and the contrition of having fallen short of the command of God. Which is why repentance isn't just some event in a person's life, but the ongoing reality of Christian discipleship. Repentance is part of the cross Christ calls us to bear as His followers. The contrition over our sins, and the ongoing transforming of our minds as we live out in the new obedience by the power of the Holy Spirit.

God's gracious work in saving us isn't about Him "forcing" anything, but about Him being the compassionate, gracious Savior and Redeemer. God doesn't sit back waiting for us to climb up some ladder to reach Him, He comes down to us to save us. God pro-actively saves us, that's what the Gospel is about. God became man, God came down, God offers Himself to the world in life, death, and resurrection to rescue, redeem, save, and heal us and this world.

If you are drowning in the middle of the ocean and someone jumps in the water, drags you to the shore, and gives you CPR so that you can start breathing again, would you say that they "forced" something on you? Or would you say they saved you?

Should a lifeguard not jump in and save a drowning person until the drowning person climbs up the lifeguard's tower and asks to be saved?

-CryptoLutheran

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BNR32FAN said:

There’s a problem with this explanation. No one can come to Christ unless The Father draws him. Who did Jesus say who sowed the tares? Was it The Father? The planter’s enemy planted the tares. The enemy cannot draw someone to Christ and yet Jesus said anyone who does not remain in Him will be cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. Furthermore Paul said to the Judiaser Galatians you have been severed from Christ, you have fallen from grace. Paul says these people were given grace. Are tares given grace? Does the enemy give grace? So next time you compare someone to the tares keep in mind these people cannot be in Christ, they have not been given grace. Simon Magus was a tare. He is the kind of person Jesus referred to in Matthew 7:21-27. There’s a difference between someone who fails to abide in Christ and a person to whom Jesus will say I never knew you. Those to whom Jesus says I never knew you can’t be severed from Christ. They can’t fail to abide in Christ. You can’t be severed from Christ or fail to remain in Him if He never knew you.

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I don't believe God simply plucks out random people and says you will be saved. I believe he wants ALL to be saved.
1 Tim
2 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

If we have no choice then we are robots and I do not believe that. God calls and man responds or not.

This is not really a topic that interests me. I do not hold any strong feelings on it so I wont bother to post on it again. God knows how each person came to faith, isn't that good enough? Not something that needs discussion IMO.

BNR32FAN said:

There’s a problem with this explanation. No one can come to Christ unless The Father draws him. Who did Jesus say who sowed the tares? Was it The Father? The planter’s enemy planted the tares. The enemy cannot draw someone to Christ and yet Jesus said anyone who does not remain in Him will be cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. Furthermore Paul said to the Judiaser Galatians you have been severed from Christ, you have fallen from grace. Paul says these people were given grace. Are tares given grace? Does the enemy give grace? So next time you compare someone to the tares keep in mind these people cannot be in Christ, they have not been given grace. Simon Magus was a tare. He is the kind of person Jesus referred to in Matthew 7:21-27. There’s a difference between someone who fails to abide in Christ and a person to whom Jesus will say I never knew you. Those to whom Jesus says I never knew you can’t be severed from Christ. They can’t fail to abide in Christ. You can’t be severed from Christ or fail to remain in Him if He never knew you.

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Are you saying that I believe that without regeneration the Spirit cannot access the mind and heart of the lost? They too are called, (in a different way than the Elect are called), they too can have a smitten conscience, (though not salvifically), and the tares among the wheat have some of the benefits of the wheat, the same rain, the same sun, the same freedom from pestilence. They are indeed given grace --some even to the point of being able to cast out demons and prophesy.

Think again. WHY does he even bother to say, "I never knew you." They obviously had been operating under the impression that he did! (And the context bears me out.)

zoidar said:

I think you make a misstake here. I don't believe it's that simple as A points to B and B to C. The first thing is your view on grace. I believe grace can be resisted and that we also can do things that enables grace. By our free will we make choices which God uses. I will tell you a story from an article I read.

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Yes, of course grace can be resisted, but there is an irresistible grace, in that all that God chooses will indeed be changed, born again, and salvation given them by faith that is not of themselves. In fact, in that, the will is changed. Those God chose will sooner or later welcome him rather than to resist him.

Yes,

zoidar said:

I will tell you a story from an article I read.

This man, a Swede with a fatal illness, saw these homeless Romanians on the street. He started to think about their situation. One day he decided to let them sleep in and use his trailer. These Romanians turned out to be Christians and they started to pray for him. The man was certain he was going to die, but when the Romanians prayed he was filled with bubbling joy and was totally healed from illness and came to faith in our risen savior.

What is there to learn from this story? God showed this man compassion just like he had shown his neighbors, the Romanians compassion. I believe this was a free will choice the man made to help the Romanians, and God in all His glory saw this act of compassion. So was the man the reason for his own salvation? No, God opened the door for him to do, if he so chose, an act of big compassion. It was also God who by grace responed to the prayers of the Romanians, but if this man had chosen differently by free will, he would probably be dead today.

You can always argue that God gave this man the will to help the Romanians, but I believe it was a choice he made by free will, maybe overcoming an inner struggle what his neighbors might think and so on.

I say: If a man is saved it's by God's grace. If a man is lost, it's by his own fault.

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Your take on the story, as you have intimated, is not the only one. Nor is it compelling. Nobody I know would say the man did not choose. But to say the man was not changed by God, but by his sin nature's choice, is ludicrous, no? We are starting back on square one with this story. Best to leave it here, unless you can show me how your take on it is compelling.

zoidar said:

I say: If a man is saved it's by God's grace. If a man is lost, it's by his own fault.

Why do I then believe in free will?

1. The Bible says God wants everyone's salvation. So if God wants this, yet not everyone is saved it must be because of man.

2. If a man has no free will, there can't be any sin. Because no one can be held responsible for something if there isn't a possibilty to will differently.

3. It fits the character of a loving God, and gives a reasonable explanation for the fall of Lucifer and also man, without putting the blame on God.

4. Personal experience.

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Again, it seems, a definition for free will is needed to continue.

(a) If you mean, as it seems, that man is capable of making choices apart from causality, then we may as well quit right here. It is nonsense. I hope if you think it through you will realize you misspoke.

(b) If you mean, then, that man is capable of making choices apart from God causing the causality, then you are still saying the same thing, except acknowledging that God causes the causality. Still it is nonsense, because if (a) is nonsense, then what difference does it make to consider God as the beginning of all causes?

(c) If you mean, as I mean, when I say I believe in Free Will, only that man does indeed choose, and it is real choice, then we can proceed.

1. The Bible says God wants the salvation of "all" the elect. Check the context.

2. If a man has no actual choice, does not choose sin, then it is only imputed to him. But that is nonsense to consider, as it is not how it is. The will of Adam's descendants is enslaved to sin, and they will to sin constantly. They are indeed to blame for their sin. The fact they always will to sin does not change that.

3. It fits your notion of love, to squeeze the God from whom love by HIS definition --not yours-- is derived, into your notion of his character. God does not love because it is loving to do so --no, love is what it is because he IS love. We are hardly privy to the depth, intensity, purposes and particularities of his love. We know by the Bible though, that he has loved some more than others, and that not by their choice.

4. Your experience is subjective, and always interpreted to some degree by your preconceptions. That is true for absolutely everyone.

RickReads said:

I`m a Indiana hillbilly.

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Oh! Howdy partner
Im from lots of different places, and it shows

RickReads said:

I`m a Indiana hillbilly.

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Indiana has hills?

Mark Quayle said:

Indiana has hills?

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Southern Indiana is hilly. The northern half is flat.

Mark Quayle said:

Yes, of course grace can be resisted, but there is an irresistible grace, in that all that God chooses will indeed be changed, born again, and salvation given them by faith that is not of themselves. In fact, in that, the will is changed. Those God chose will sooner or later welcome him rather than to resist him.

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I doubt irrisistable grace exist the way you believe in it. When I prayed to God for forgiveness I wanted grace, grace was not something for me to resist. But maybe you are saying that that was not the irrisistable grace, but the grace that I actually turned to God for prayer was the irrisistable grace. I cannot say much about it, more than such claim must be backed up with scripture. It sounds a bit like a friend (God) is offering you to go on a journey (to heaven). You are not interested in such a journey, but your friend (God) is persistent. And eventually you change your will about it, what in that would make it irrisistable?

Your take on the story, as you have intimated, is not the only one. Nor is it compelling. Nobody I know would say the man did not choose. But to say the man was not changed by God, but by his sin nature's choice, is ludicrous, no? We are starting back on square one with this story. Best to leave it here, unless you can show me how your take on it is compelling.

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I'm not saying his sin nature choice changed him, but his sin nature choice had the consequence that God would later show him mercy and change him. Of course I can't prove it, it was not my story.

Again, it seems, a definition for free will is needed to continue.

(a) If you mean, as it seems, that man is capable of making choices apart from causality, then we may as well quit right here. It is nonsense. I hope if you think it through you will realize you misspoke.

(b) If you mean, then, that man is capable of making choices apart from God causing the causality, then you are still saying the same thing, except acknowledging that God causes the causality. Still it is nonsense, because if (a) is nonsense, then what difference does it make to consider God as the beginning of all causes?

(c) If you mean, as I mean, when I say I believe in Free Will, only that man does indeed choose, and it is real choice, then we can proceed.

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I have chosen not to answer this question. I think it's better I don't since, we have discussed free will in many other threads, I rather avoid it for this thread.

1. The Bible says God wants the salvation of "all" the elect. Check the context.

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Then you must prove from the Bible that God only wants the salvation of the elect. Please do. I on the other hand must prove that God wants salvation of everyone, and I will try do that in my next post.

3. We know by the Bible though, that he has loved some more than others, and that not by their choice.

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Can you prove it by scripture? I can prove God loves everyone equally by scripture.

Actually there is no such thing as love more or love less with God. God either loves or doesn't love. There is no in between.

zoidar said:

Then you must prove from the Bible that God only wants the salvation of the elect. Please do. I on the other hand must prove that God wants salvation of everyone, and I will try do that in my next post.

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Here's some ammo. (and there's more where this came from)

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

Romans 5:15-16
But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Colossians 1:19-20
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

1 Timothy 2:1-6
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

1 Timothy 4:10
That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God,
who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.


Christ Triumphant, by Thomas Allin
Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin

The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Mark Quayle said:

Are you saying that I believe that without regeneration the Spirit cannot access the mind and heart of the lost? They too are called, (in a different way than the Elect are called), they too can have a smitten conscience, (though not salvifically), and the tares among the wheat have some of the benefits of the wheat, the same rain, the same sun, the same freedom from pestilence. They are indeed given grace --some even to the point of being able to cast out demons and prophesy.

Think again. WHY does he even bother to say, "I never knew you." They obviously had been operating under the impression that he did! (And the context bears me out.)

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God calls them for what? Your saying that God draws people to Christ but doesn’t grant them grace enabling them to repent? Instead He grants them some “different kind of grace”, tells them to repent, draws them to Christ, expects them to repent, then judges and punished them for failing to comply? What is this different kind of grace your speaking of? What free and unmerited favor of God are you saying God has given these people who were running well? Grace only means one thing in the Bible, a person has been called to repentance by God. There is not different kind of grace from God. God doesn’t call people to Christ arbitrarily. This is only a refusal to accept what the scriptures are actually saying in order to hold on to a false doctrine brother.

All of the universal atonement passages teach Christ did not save a single soul. That he merely made it possible for self-righteous people to save themselves.

That is unless balanced with the passages that limit the atonement to the Church. Why did he not pray for the world's salvation but only for those the Father gave to him?

“I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.” John 17:9 (KJV 1900)

“Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” Acts 20:28 (KJV 1900)

Unless the atonement applies only to the Church of believers, people can only trust in their works to save them. Are they really saved after rejecting salvation by grace?

coffee4u said:

I don't believe God simply plucks out random people and says you will be saved. I believe he wants ALL to be saved.
1 Tim
2 I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

If we have no choice then we are robots and I do not believe that. God calls and man responds or not.

This is not really a topic that interests me. I do not hold any strong feelings on it so I wont bother to post on it again. God knows how each person came to faith, isn't that good enough? Not something that needs discussion IMO.

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Im not completely opposed to this idea although I think it is possible that God might not call some who have no interest in seeking Him. I’m confident that He will give everyone the opportunity for salvation thereby making His judgement and punishment upon those who reject Him rightly deserved. To those who prefer the darkness He will give them exactly that.

BNR32FAN said:

Im not completely opposed to this idea although I think it is possible that God might not call some who have no interest in seeking Him. I’m confident that He will give everyone the opportunity for salvation thereby making His judgement and punishment upon those who reject Him rightly deserved. To those who prefer the darkness He will give them exactly that.

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Salvation is only for the self-righteous? I heard he saves those who cannot save themselves.

BNR32FAN said:

Im not completely opposed to this idea although I think it is possible that God might not call some who have no interest in seeking Him. I’m confident that He will give everyone the opportunity for salvation thereby making His judgement and punishment upon those who reject Him rightly deserved. To those who prefer the darkness He will give them exactly that.

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so what happens to those who have never heard the gospel or about Jesus and die ?

its appointed once to die then comes Judgment. No 2nd chances

Jesus is YHWH said:

so what happens to those who have never heard the gospel or about Jesus and die ?

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I don’t know and neither do you.

Dave L said:

Salvation is only for the self-righteous? I heard he saves those who cannot save themselves.

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“Self righteous” that’s a laugh. Stop intentionally exaggerating everyone’s posts. It’s a despicable tactic of deception. Nothing I said even gave the smallest implication of salvation by self righteousness.

BNR32FAN said:

“Self righteous” that’s a laugh. Stop intentionally exaggerating everyone’s posts. It’s a despicable tactic of deception. Nothing I said even gave the smallest implication of salvation by self righteousness.

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How do you get around thinking you saved yourself through obedience? The proof that you do is in the fact you think you can lose salvation if you don't obey.

Dave L said:

How do you get around thinking you saved yourself through obedience? The proof that you do is in the fact you think you can lose salvation if you don't obey.

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This accusation coming from someone who is so fond of quoting John 5:4 and 1 John 3:9 as evidence of salvation is completely ridiculous.

Dave L said:

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.” 1 John 5:4 (KJV 1900)

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Dave L said:

If you are right, then Hebrews 6 comes into play. Which means they were never saved. I doubt you are right.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)

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BNR32FAN said:

I don’t know and neither do you.

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Romans 1 tells us what happens. They are without excuse. God is self evident via His handiwork in creation.

BNR32FAN said:

This accusation coming from someone who is so fond of quoting John 5:4 and 1 John 3:9 as evidence of salvation is completely ridiculous.

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So you practice sin and think it's a normal Christian lifestyle?

BNR32FAN said:

God calls them for what? Your saying that God draws people to Christ but doesn’t grant them grace enabling them to repent? Instead He grants them some “different kind of grace”, tells them to repent, draws them to Christ, expects them to repent, then judges and punished them for failing to comply? What is this different kind of grace your speaking of? What free and unmerited favor of God are you saying God has given these people who were running well? Grace only means one thing in the Bible, a person has been called to repentance by God. There is not different kind of grace from God. God doesn’t call people to Christ arbitrarily. This is only a refusal to accept what the scriptures are actually saying in order to hold on to a false doctrine brother.

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This is kind of amazing. Here I am saying things that probably sound almost Arminian to an Arminian, while you are sounding almost Calvinist!

Compliance is not the same as the obedience --just saying-- not the kind of obedience the Spirit causes in regeneration.

Yes, God calls everyone, but not salvifically. He draws everyone, but not salvifically. But you apparently didn't read verse 10 where Paul, says, "I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view." and then exhorts them to get rid of the troublemaker who started them down their false path. Thus it is a different kind of falling from grace --or at least, not complete-- if they indeed fell from grace. There is common grace, such as restraint from going as far into apostasy as the lost would go, and such as the fact that His Word will not return to him void. It is gracious of God to provide the means of physical sustenance, for that matter! What is your objection? You want --what, a calling-- to be the only grace? No, man, the irresistible grace of regeneration, is for the elect alone.

He stands at the door and knocks. But they don't open the door. Only those who are regenerated will open the door.