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Featured At What Point Do You Think You Are Truly Saved?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ChristServant, Nov 19, 2020.

  1. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    They whom God has made known of Him. Romans 1 is dealing with those whom God has revealed Himself to, not those whom He has not revealed Himself to. Remember your question was what about those who don’t know about Jesus and the gospel. Romans 1 is not addressing this situation. Romans 1 is only referring to those whom God has revealed Himself to.
     
  2. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    it sure is since Paul is declaring the gospel in Romans 1.
     
  3. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Are you saying Christians are self righteous? That they must obey God? Because I could’ve sworn that you were just condemning that notion when I simply said that God might not call those who do not seek Him. Do you see how ridiculous that sounds? Obedience to God is not the result of self righteousness. You have absolutely no discernment at all. You just like to play word games making false accusations in an attempt to discredit anyone who opposes your theology by these deceptive tactics.
     
  4. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Are you saying Romans 1 is referring to people whom God hasn’t revealed Himself to because Paul is declaring the gospel? Because I could’ve sworn that you just asked me what about those who don’t know about Jesus and haven’t heard the gospel.
     
  5. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Those who think they saved themselves through free will obedience are missing salvation by grace completely. Opting for salvation by works instead.
     
  6. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Can you not see the whole business of the lost being born again is an irresistible grace? The Calvinistic doctrine is not to say that no grace of God can be resisted, but that sooner or later, the resistance of the Elect will be overcome, or broken down, or, in fact, changed. It is by the Grace of God that the Spirit moves in, and regenerates, without the willful prior permission of the Elect.

    It could be rightly said, I think, that the very mode of being of anything and anyone is by the Grace of God; certainly we had no say in our own existence nor what sort of creature we are. But when by the Grace of God, he changes us into someone who wills to do what is right, and who has hope, we complain and resist? Well, yeah, we do, sometimes, but it is too late. He did what he did according to his own purposes, and didn't ask our permission, as is his right.
     
  7. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Where is the evidence of this non saving grace? Where is there any mention that God will grant grace that doesn’t enable a person to be saved? There is only ONE KIND OG GRACE. YOU EITHER HAVE IT OR YOU DON’T. YOUR EITHER DRAWN TO CHRIST OR YOUR NOT. What your saying is just a smokescreen to disregard the scriptures that prove your doctrines are false.
     
  8. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I'll have to look again. Google maps shows no topography at all that I could find. But maybe the page froze.
     
  9. Jesus is YHWH

    Jesus is YHWH my Lord and my God ! Supporter

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    Romans 1
    For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
    18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
     
  10. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You wrote:
    I wrote:
    "Then you must prove from the Bible that God only wants the salvation of the elect. Please do. I on the other hand must prove that God wants salvation of everyone, and I will try do that in my next post."

    You wrote:
    I wrote:
    "Can you prove it by scripture? I can prove God loves everyone equally by scripture."

    I'm waiting for your response to this, then I'll show you scripture of my position. Btw I'm not going to use the "all means all" argument. :)
     
  11. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    (Ok, taking your narrative then, for the sake of argument, that there is only one kind of grace, (may I also say, that from your pov, 'equal degree of grace'?), what logically makes the difference between those who do receive Christ and those who do not?

    Free Will? --if free will, what makes the difference --mere chance? or maybe one person being more good than another, or better in some other way? Your version necessarily implies true sovereignty, so if there are multiple agents with true sovereignty, is it random who will and who will not? True sovereignty and true random don't mix. Sovereignty involves specific purpose. Ask God.)

    But back to the fray: “For many are called, but few are chosen” (Matt. 22:14). Notice, too, the man at the end of the story who appeared without being properly clothed.

    I thought I mentioned God's goodness to all his creatures, providence, regardless of their lack of deserving anything at all from him. This is also grace.
     
  12. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    If this were true then John 15:1-10 would be a useless message and John 15:6 would be impossible. The same implications are made in Luke 13:6-9. I would ask that you please consider the implications in verses 8 and 9. What is Jesus doing in those verses? He is giving the tree special care and notice that the outcome is still uncertain.

    “And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?' And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"”
    ‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB

    Evidently grace is not irresistible.
     
  13. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated" is just one of many. One should be enough to show his love for the Elect is a particular love not shared by the forever lost, just as his love for Israel was the love for a chosen people, not the rest of the world.

    You are correct; you must prove that God wants the salvation of everyone. You also must show what the word, "wants", means when applied to Almighty God, without anthropomorphism.

    Perhaps it was not in response to you, but I have proved logically to many here, that the fact God is Absolutely Sovereign logically means that nothing can happen without his causing, and so if he wants something, it will indeed happen.

    I also showed in response to every instance brought up to me, that "all" as quoted from Scripture, does not always mean absolutely everyone. For eg, in the one you seem to be working on today, "who wants all to be saved" (1 Tim 2:4), see vs 7, where Paul refers to himself as the apostle to the Gentiles, the word "all" can easily mean "all kinds of people." i.e. both Jew and Gentile --just as his promise to Abraham was to "all peoples". (Also, perhaps I should mention, in some places "all" means that if anyone is to be saved (or whatever each verse referenced is about) that there is only One --Christ-- through whom it can happen.) The mere fact that it CAN mean that in each instance, combined with the fact that all Scripture works together, and the fact that elsewhere Scripture both agrees that God shows particular love for some, and chooses only some for salvation, and denies that God saves absolutely all, proves that this verse indeed should be taken to mean that he "wants" all the Elect, admittedly perhaps without immediate reference to what he "wants" concerning the non-Elect --it doesn't mention that in that passage.

    Remember also, again, you must prove within your proof the meaning of "wants" as it applies to God. God, by definition lacks nothing, needs nothing. Do a bit of etymology on the word, "wants".
     
  14. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Where does Paul say that God has revealed the gospel to everyone? He never says that in the entire chapter.
     
  15. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    If God has deemed that salvation will be according to those who choose to love Him of their own free will then how is God not sovereign if that is the way He chose for salvation to be?
     
  16. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    That parable really is a bad example to try to use in support of Calvinism. The way Calvinists use that verse so far out of context really baffles me. Who didn’t receive an invitation to the feast? Many people who did receive an invitation weren’t interested in coming. (So much for irresistible grace) Was the man who was turned away not invited? Was anyone not invited? Why was the man turned away? Because he was not properly dressed for the occasion. So what was the determining factor for being able to attend the feast? The invitation was sent to everyone and anyone who wanted to attend would be allowed if they properly prepared themselves. Yes I know this often comes as such a shock to Calvinists that we actually do have to do something to be saved. We have to cooperate with the guidance of the Holy Spirit in order to receive salvation. Pssst... It’s called walking in the Spirit, it’s what people who are born again do. I’m sure you’ve heard of it before.
     
  17. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Was Esau actually hated by God? What evidence of this do you see in his story? Esau had to move to another location because he so blessed by God that his livestock was to plentiful for the land to sustain. There’s no evidence that God hated Esau, however there is evidence that God hatred the Edomites who were Esau’s descendants because they were constantly plotting against “Israel” (Formerly known as Jacob).
     
  18. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    Southern Indiana averages about 1000 feet above sea level. Maybe look at pictures of Brown County state park.
     
  19. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    The man without the garment was missing the righteousness of Jesus which gives us our covering. Had nothing to do with your works for salvation theology. You think you put on your own garment? Good luck with that.
     
  20. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I thought you would use the Jacob/Esau example. You probably allready know my answer. It's not about who God "loved or hated", or who would be saved or not, but who's bloodline the Messiah would come from. You know Jesus says we are to hate our family and even ourselves to be his follower. It's about choice, "love and hate" is an image.

    God created man in His image. Maybe you don't want me to say this, but God has emotions (anthropomorphism?), feels sorrow, anger, compassion, love, desire etc. God wants as desires everyone to be saved. Of course God is not allowing everyone's salvation, even it is His innermost desire. That is because a righteous God won't let sin into heaven.

    You make this conclusion: God chooses some, and therefore He loves people differently and therefore His will is to not save some people. The fact is that the Bible never says that God isn't willing a person's salvation or even more important, the Bible never says that Jesus didn't bear someone's sins on the cross. We can assume it, but it's just not in there.

    Now to my favorite text. Yeah, you might have guessed it. John 3:16. Look at the parallells.

    Jesus loved the world of sinners so much that God let Jesus die on the cross for everyone (gave His son for the world of sinners), that anyone that believes in him will be saved. Jesus didn't come to judge those in the world that deny him, but to save those in the world that actually receive him.

    You see even they who deny Jesus are included in the word world (see the green text), as you know is the word "kosmos", which Jesus came to save.

    John 12:46-48
    I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day.

    John 3:16-18
    For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2020
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