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Featured At What Point Do You Think You Are Truly Saved?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ChristServant, Nov 19, 2020.

  1. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Everyone seems to forget that mercy is a possible outcome for a verdict.
     
  2. Guojing

    Guojing Well-Known Member

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    Ephesians 1:13 tells me when

    13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
     
  3. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Really? As many times as this has been explained and you still insist? I'm thinking you don't even read the responses anymore, at least not until you find something to contradict.

    Of course they weren't interested. The unregenerate never are. Irresistible Grace doesn't say Grace is never resisted. Irresistible Grace concerns only the fact that God's regeneration is not something resistible. O
    You know, you really ought to do something about that attitude. It does not become you. And it will hurt that much more to change your tune when you find out you are wrong.

    Calvinists don't believe that God calls only the Elect, but only the Elect are chosen, called according to that particular special purpose. Where did the guests get their clothes? It doesn't say. If he had the right clothes he woulda shown up in them. It doesn't say who puts them on the guests. If they can do something to merit salvation then it is by works, and NOT GRACE. How much more obvious can that be?

    But I'm running short of patience. Later.
     
  4. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You mean, other than the fact God himself says so?

    You mean, other than the fact God himself says so?

    So the point stands: God hates some, or at least loves some more than others, no?
     
  5. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't mind you saying that, as long as you understand that God is the source / maybe even the meaning of the true things, and not a subject under compulsion of living up to our notions of what those things mean. God does not do love because it is good or loving to do so; Love is what it is because GOD is Love. God's emotions are not anthropomorphism, but we seem to think they are to be defined by us.
     
  6. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    To avoid spending time proving you wrong that it's just not in there, I will mention that there doesn't need to be a statement to the contrary in order to prove a point wrong. The lack of a positive statement is sufficient.

    Edit: I see further reasoning here didn't make it to text. Shame, it was so eloquent, haha. Let me try again:

    ....The lack of a positive statement is sufficient. If you wish to prove your point, you must demonstrate proof, not demonstrate that there is no statement to the contrary.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2020
  7. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The word in the Greek translated "so" in English, only means "so". You can take it to mean "so much", but there is no more evidence it means "so much" than that it means "thus". "For God thus loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that those believing in him should not perish...."
     
  8. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Not so sure I like the way you put it, or maybe the reasons, but I agree that God did not create in order to punish some of his creatures. His reason has to do with his glory as seen by the rest of his creatures --the Bride of Christ.

    You might, then, think of the lost as collateral damage, but it is not exactly so --that is not accidental or necessary because they got in the way or because they free-willed their way to hell. God's purpose for the lost is precisely part of what it took to for accomplishing this remarkable construction --the Bride of Christ. You seem to want mere chance to play a part here. God doesn't work that way. Nothing goes to waste.
     
  9. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't think the lack of positive statement is suffcient to prove your stance. Atheists say there is no God, and they say the burden of proof is on the believer, since you can't prove what doesn't exist, right? Wrong! You are saying there is no fish in the lake, because you haven't seen a fish. Who do you think have the burden of proof in that case? I that say there are fish in the lake or you that say there are none? Whether our statement is positive or negative we need to prove it.

    In this case I need to prove Jesus died for everyone, and you need to prove that Jesus didn't. I say we got the same burden of showing proof. Of course the abstance of text saying Jesus didn't die for someone, doesn't prove he did. And the same goes with "just because there is text saying Jesus died for some, doesn't prove he didn't die for others."

    Edit: Of course you don't always have to prove your argument. If I say there are two suns in our solarsystem, you surely don't need to prove me wrong, because my statement is so much in abstance of well known reality and common knowledge. If I say there are no sun in our solarsystem, neither that needs to be proved wrong for the same reason. It's not whether it's positive or negative that tells us if it has to be proved.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2020
  10. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    I don`t think it`s hard to prove that Jesus died for everyone. The Bible plainly says He did and provision has been made for everyone to be saved. And being a plain speaker when I say everyone I mean I believe it for everyone.

    BUT, you can`t escape what the Bible says about the elect. Some avoid those verses by going into a rant that has little to do with scripture. Others try to explain it away by claiming the election is only about service.

    In the generic sense, yes yes yes Jesus died for the sin of the whole world. But the obstacle for you is to prove that everyone has a chance. I don`t think it can be done. If you think you can I`m certainly interested in considering the argument.
     
  11. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I don't think I can prove everyone has a chance to be saved. I think they do, but how to prove it? I will think about it, and if I come up with something worthwhile I'll let you know.
     
  12. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    IMO, this is the best answer.

    Compatibilism - Wikipedia
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
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  13. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Agreed (I think). I didn't mean for that to be my point, but to say that lack of negative statement doesn't prove yours. (If I remember right, lol). I wish there was a way to line these all up without losing the reply one has started.
     
  14. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Sometimes I copy the quoted post to bring it with. Like this. (select/copy/paste)

    zoidar said:
    I don't think the lack of positive statement is suffcient to prove your stance.
     
  15. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I've done what I think you are saying, but it usually means losing (and therefore having to re-find) the reply I'm writing.
     
  16. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    I suppose if you anticipate going back and forth with someone for a bit you could bring it all with you.

    Saint Steven said:
    Sometimes I copy the quoted post to bring it with. Like this. (select/copy/paste)

    zoidar said:
    I don't think the lack of positive statement is suffcient to prove your stance.
     
  17. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Mark you can mark :pthe text then using the plus sign, choosing quote. I use it to split the text I reply to in different sections.

    I agree fully with you on the statement that "all" doesn't have to or always do refer to everyone. So we agree on that. :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2020
  18. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Agree it doesn't prove mine.

    But is it not strange that we don't have one example in the Bible where it says "Jesus didn't die for him so he wasn't saved"? One might think Paul or some of the other writers would have said something along that line, since it's such an important question.
     
  19. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    To your point there, no, not really. Some things are so natural to our thinking that we don't bother to say them. Even scientists often don't realize how many assumptions they make in coming to their conclusions. (For example, in what they consider to be a totally isolated science experiment, they may never even take gravity into account.)

    But Calvinists say, "The Holy Spirit doesn't regenerate those God has not chosen, so they aren't saved." (We do not profess to know who the Elect are.) Then they say, "Christ died for nobody in vain."
     
  20. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    To avoid saying, "huh?" I'll just say "thanks". I can split the text I reply to ok, by selecting some part and replying to it, but when I try to find it again to select more, I lose the whole field in which the quoted text and my reply were written.
     
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