At What Point Do You Think You Are Truly Saved?

[bekkilyn]

So you reject the OT and Revelation which spells nothing but fear?

Nope? I ran into another poster on another forum who used Nope as a favorite word. Have you run into me before?

The OT and Revelation are about hope and restoration. They are most certainly NOT "nothing but fear."

 

[RickReads]

Nope, I simply don't follow a fear-based Christianity in which God is viewed as petty, abusive, cruel, and vindicitive towards his creation. It's a contradiction of his character and of the gospel (GOOD news to the whole world.)

You are pretty much the same as most other universalists I have met. You will reject scriptures that don`t fit your theology.

 

[bekkilyn]

Yeah, I mentioned your God is Omniscient but doesn`t use it so he can save sinners who don`t repent view, when I said you were rationalizing without scripture support.

And only one that has suggested God could be abusive, petty, and vindictive is you in response to any suggestion that God might punish sinners.

I've already posted John 3:16-17 which is hardly being without scripture support, unless of course your version of the bible doesn't include those particular verses.

I also never once said that God doesn't save sinners who don't repent. My belief this entire time has been that God saves those who WILL be saved (those who *choose* him). I've stated it over and over and over again.

What I reject is the version of God who is cruel, petty, vindictive, and abusive toward his creation, creating billions and billions of people for the SOLE purpose of torturing them and causing them to suffer for an eternity simply for being born. Creating them without any hope whatsoever.

It's against God's character and it's against the gospel (which means GOOD news for the world).

 

[bekkilyn]

You are pretty much the same as most other universalists I have met. You will reject scriptures that don`t fit your theology.

I am not a universalist. We have the choice to reject God's gift of grace.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes it is the same definition. Why do you think I’m describing a different definition here? How does this mean something different than the good news of Christ?

A historical account of the life of Jesus, called a Gospel (capital G) is different than the message of the gospel (the gospel) which requires action on our part. "You must be born again."

 

[Saint Steven]

I am not a universalist. We have the choice to reject God's gift of grace.

Perhaps you don't understand Universal Restorationism. You are halfway there.

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.

 

[Saint Steven]

I am not a universalist. We have the choice to reject God's gift of grace.

What becomes of those who reject it?
And what about those who have never heard?

 

[BNR32FAN]

“For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” Galatians 5:3–4 (KJV 1900)
I believe Paul is showing how apostasy works and warning them against it. But many do this and cannot repent according to Hebrews 6. Any who plan to sacrifice in a Millennial temple have already crossed the line as I see it.

The KJV doesn’t really convey the message Paul was sending according to the Greek text. The KJV completely omits the statement where Paul says you have been severed from Christ. Instead they’ve translated it into something completely different which is exactly why I don’t like the KJV. Instead of translating the Greek to English they inject their own commentary into the verses shaping them to better fit their reformed theology. It’s not surprising that a reformed theologian wouldn’t want to say anyone was severed from Christ, that might disprove his theology. The words “Christ is becoming of no effect to you” isn’t found anywhere in that passage. Here’s the word for word Greek text.


Galatians 5:4

4 κατηργήθητε (severed) G2673 V-AIP-2P ἀπὸ (you) G575 Prep Χριστοῦ (Christ) G5547 N-GMS οἵτινες (who) G3748 RelPro-NMP ἐν (by) G1722 Prep νόμῳ (law) G3551 N-DMS δικαιοῦσθε (justified) G1344 V-PIM/P-2P τῆς (the) G3588 Art-GFS χάριτος (grace) G5485 N-GFS ἐξεπέσατε (fallen) G1601 V-AIA-2P

 

[bekkilyn]

What becomes of those who reject it?
And what about those who have never heard?

Do we know if anyone has truly rejected him in their hearts? Only God knows. The option to reject him must exist as I believe he created us with free agency, but I don't believe that rejecting "Christianity" as a religion, or rejecting the Christian fundamentalist version of God, or Calvinism, or whatever (because those are the only versions of God that is known to a person) is the same as rejecting HIM.

 

[Dave L]

The KJV doesn’t really convey the message Paul was sending according to the Greek text. The KJV completely omits the statement where Paul says you have been severed from Christ. Instead they’ve translated it into something completely different which is exactly why I don’t like the KJV. Instead of translating the Greek to English they inject their own commentary into the verses shaping them to better fit their reformed theology. It’s not surprising that a reformed theologian wouldn’t want to say anyone was severed from Christ, that might disprove his theology. The words “Christ is becoming of no effect to you” isn’t found anywhere in that passage. Here’s the word for word Greek text.


Galatians 5:4

4 κατηργήθητε (severed) G2673 V-AIP-2P ἀπὸ (you) G575 Prep Χριστοῦ (Christ) G5547 N-GMS οἵτινες (who) G3748 RelPro-NMP ἐν (by) G1722 Prep νόμῳ (law) G3551 N-DMS δικαιοῦσθε (justified) G1344 V-PIM/P-2P τῆς (the) G3588 Art-GFS χάριτος (grace) G5485 N-GFS ἐξεπέσατε (fallen) G1601 V-AIA-2P

If you are right, then Hebrews 6 comes into play. Which means they were never saved. I doubt you are right.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)

2 Listen, I Paul tell you that if you -go back to the law by being [let yourself be] circumcised, Christ does you no good. 3 Again, I warn every man: If you allow yourselves to be circumcised, you must follow [are obligated to obey] all the law. 4 If you try to be made right with God [justified] through the law, your life with Christ is over [you are alienated/separated/severed from Christ]—you have left [fallen away from] God's grace. 5 For by the Spirit and through faith we wait eagerly for -a right relationship with God [righteousness]—the object of our hope. 6 When we are [For] in Christ Jesus, it is not important if we are circumcised or not [Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision accomplishes anything]. The important thing is faith—the kind of faith that works through love.

 

[Dave L]

The OT and Revelation are about hope and restoration. They are most certainly NOT "nothing but fear."

Do you fear God?

 

[bekkilyn]

Do you fear God?

Define "fear".

 

[Dave L]

Define "fear".

fear
/ˈfir/
Learn to pronounce

noun

1. an unpleasant emotion caused by the belief that someone or something is dangerous, likely to cause pain, or a threat.
   "he is prey to irrational fears"

 

[bekkilyn]

fear
/ˈfir/
Learn to pronounce

noun

1. an unpleasant emotion caused by the belief that someone or something is dangerous, likely to cause pain, or a threat.
   "he is prey to irrational fears"

Then no. I don't view God as the equivalent of the scary monster under the bed who can be reduced to an "unpleasant emotion". I most certainly don't view God as *likely* to cause pain. Quite the opposite.

Had you defined what it meant to "fear God" as something similar to "having a healthy respect for and adoration for his awesomeness" then I probably would have answered yes.

 

[Dave L]

Then no. I don't view God as the equivalent of the scary monster under the bed who can be reduced to an "unpleasant emotion". I most certainly don't view God as *likely* to cause pain. Quite the opposite.

Had you defined what it meant to "fear God" as something similar to "having a healthy respect for and adoration for his awesomeness" then I probably would have answered yes.

Have you spent any time in OT studies?

 

[bekkilyn]

Have you spent any time in OT studies?

Yes, much.

 

[Dave L]

Yes, much.

Based on that, do you see God behind the current plague? The Holocaust? War in general? And other calamities that destroy life on earth?

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Have you spent any time in OT studies?

Amen to that and we know God is Immutable. The same God in the OT( the flood, sodom and gomorrah) is the same God in the NT. Jesus warned us of the Judgment to come and Revelations tells us all about the future Wrath of God, His Judgments, Plagues etc.... that will fall upon this earth. The same Loving God in the NT is the same Loving God in the OT.

 

[bekkilyn]

Based on that, do you see God behind the current plague? The Holocaust? War in general? And other calamities that destroy life on earth?

No, I do not believe that *causes* all of these things. Rather, I believe that he primarily allows the consequences of the choices we make, including the extremely horrifying ones, and suffers with us when we suffer. He helps and restores us amidst the calamities of a fallen world and looks forward to the day when his creation is fully restored and the reconciliation through Jesus Christ is fully realized.

God is always working to turn what is evil into good.

Does he *sometimes* discipline? Yes. But not for the purpose of causing pain and suffering. Even with Israel and then Judah, he was preparing the way for a Shepherd and not the seemingly endless line of fallible human kings who mostly did evil and caused hardship and pain for those they ruled (as God predicted they would when the people demanded a king and God allowed it.)

Over and over and over God gives us choices, but does not promise that we will be exempt from the consequences of those choices, or even the choices that others make.

I don't worship God because I am terrified to do otherwise. What a horrible way to live with someone! I worship God because (though not limited to these things) I see his great goodness, his love, his joy in his creation, his neverending compassion even for those who continue to hurt him, and because he is trustworthy and keeps his promises.

 

[Dave L]

No, I do not believe that *causes* all of these things. Rather, I believe that he primarily allows the consequences of the choices we make, including the extremely horrifying ones, and suffers with us when we suffer. He helps and restores us amidst the calamities of a fallen world and looks forward to the day when his creation is fully restored and the reconciliation through Jesus Christ is fully realized.

God is always working to turn what is evil into good.

Does he *sometimes* discipline? Yes. But not for the purpose of causing pain and suffering. Even with Israel and then Judah, he was preparing the way for a Shepherd and not the seemingly endless line of fallible human kings who mostly did evil and caused hardship and pain for those they ruled (as God predicted they would when the people demanded a king and God allowed it.)

Over and over and over God gives us choices, but does not promise that we will be exempt from the consequences of those choices, or even the choices that others make.

I don't worship God because I am terrified to do otherwise. What a horrible way to live with someone! I worship God because (though not limited to these things) I see his great goodness, his love, his joy in his creation, his neverending compassion even for those who continue to hurt him, and because he is trustworthy and keeps his promises.

We have two different Gods. So any discussion is a waste of time.