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Featured At What Point Do You Think You Are Truly Saved?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by ChristServant, Nov 19, 2020.

  1. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Proof's in the pudding.

    You are saved, in one sense, when you get there. You are saved in another, though closely related sense, before you get there --from your sin, if so be that God has regenerated you. If a person loses their salvation, they were not of the Elect, nor, in fact, were they ever saved, unless you mean they grew among the wheat, even though they were weeds.

    The OT Israelites lived among God's Chosen People --does that mean they were all "of Israel"? (Romans 9)
     
  2. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    A friend of mine says:
    "Those who claim to hate God haven't actually met him yet." (or something like that)

    Contrary to popular belief, I think that anyone who spent ten minutes with God would change their mind about him completely. We all have some major misconceptions about him. (in one direction or another)

    So, what is "the Christian fundamentalist version of God"? Wouldn't it be based on the Bible? (since they are fundamentalists) Where would a better place be to get your "version" of God?
     
  3. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You probably mean, Paul is saying something contrary in 1 Corinthians 2. But I don't see anything contrary in 1 Corinthians 2. Nor in 3. Maybe you could explain a little more.

    You say it is an exaggeration of what Paul is saying --how so? You say it ignores verses in the beginning of Chapter 3 --how so?
     
  4. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    No, you may understand to some degree, as a lost person. But like the repentance of the lost, they don't have ENOUGH understanding to do the job. The saved that have matured understand more, perhaps, but even they cannot "sound the depths of love divine." God enlightens, no doubt, but if the genuineness of our faith depends on our knowledge, wisdom and understanding (not to mention integrity, power and faithfulness), it is hanging by a thread that can be cut by blowing on it.
     
  5. bekkilyn

    bekkilyn Contemplative Christian Supporter

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    I don't know that we would all change our minds *completely* on meeting him...for example, a person who loves God already may end up loving him more rather than changing their mind to hate him...but I wholeheartedly agree that we all must have major misconceptions in some way. God is too big for us to truly comprehend all of him.

    Rather than fundamentalism as an adjective, I was referring to the Christian Fundamentalist movement that arose within American Protestantism that takes an extremely literalist view of the bible. Rejecting their version of God is not the same as rejecting God.

    Only a rejection of God himself, and not a rejection of the lens through which we attempt to see God, is truly rejecting God, which is what makes it all the more difficult to reject him, if one was so inclined.

    I trust that God has and will account for all of these things. I believe in his goodness and his love for what he has created, and I am content with the mystery.
     
  6. sunshineforJesus

    sunshineforJesus is so in love with God CF Ambassadors Supporter

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    Thanks so much for that info.
     
  7. Aaron_Bethlhm

    Aaron_Bethlhm Active Member

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    Where did the religious leaders who opposed and who sought to kill Jesus get their "version" of God ? (The Bible)

    Where did the little children who God Revealed Salvation to get their "version" ? (The Creator, their Heavenly Father)
     
  8. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This leads me to the questions. How does a person get saved, from your view? Also how does one know one is saved? Why do you think we have different ideas how one is saved?
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
  9. coffee4u

    coffee4u Well-Known Member

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    God isn't going to force someone into repentance the person has to do that, they have to be willing.
    Past that I will leave it to God. He knows, that is good enough for me.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
  10. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Your question is indeed interesting. For me personally, when I started to believe the truth I got absolutely terrified. I thought God would never forgive me and that I had a one way ticket downwards. So I prayed to God in my despair that I believed He had sent His Son to die for our sins and if He would forgive me, I would give my whole life to Him. There and then I realised I was forgiven and that I had become a Christian, I believe born again, saved.
     
  11. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    That was my point actually. Thanks.
    Which begs the question. If you don't get your view of God from the Bible, where do you get it?

    Saint Steven said:
    A friend of mine says:
    "Those who claim to hate God haven't actually met him yet." (or something like that)

    Contrary to popular belief, I think that anyone who spent ten minutes with God would change their mind about him completely. We all have some major misconceptions about him. (in one direction or another)

    So, what is "the Christian fundamentalist version of God"? Wouldn't it be based on the Bible? (since they are fundamentalists) Where would a better place be to get your "version" of God?
     
  12. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    C. S. Lewis claims he was dragged into the kingdom kicking and screaming. - lol
     
  13. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Repentance is our response to the Law, the Law brings knowledge of sin and with it condemnation of our sin; and thus comes despair over our sin and the contrition of having fallen short of the command of God. Which is why repentance isn't just some event in a person's life, but the ongoing reality of Christian discipleship. Repentance is part of the cross Christ calls us to bear as His followers. The contrition over our sins, and the ongoing transforming of our minds as we live out in the new obedience by the power of the Holy Spirit.

    God's gracious work in saving us isn't about Him "forcing" anything, but about Him being the compassionate, gracious Savior and Redeemer. God doesn't sit back waiting for us to climb up some ladder to reach Him, He comes down to us to save us. God pro-actively saves us, that's what the Gospel is about. God became man, God came down, God offers Himself to the world in life, death, and resurrection to rescue, redeem, save, and heal us and this world.

    If you are drowning in the middle of the ocean and someone jumps in the water, drags you to the shore, and gives you CPR so that you can start breathing again, would you say that they "forced" something on you? Or would you say they saved you?

    Should a lifeguard not jump in and save a drowning person until the drowning person climbs up the lifeguard's tower and asks to be saved?

    -CryptoLutheran
     
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  14. RickReads

    RickReads Well-Known Member

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    Once again, I find your arguments compelling. I lost interest in the old churches long ago but you force me to respect the Lutheran view.
     
  15. Aaron_Bethlhm

    Aaron_Bethlhm Active Member

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    Same as Simon bar jona, according to all the Word and Plan of God stated clearly by Jesus and His disciples .

    (from) Study Bible

    …20You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 21I have not written you because you lack knowledge of the truth, but because you have it, and because no lie comes from the truth.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
  16. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I thought that was already dealt with. One is saved by grace, through faith, and that not of ourselves --it is the gift of God. God chooses whom to save (the Elect) and Christ died for them, and the Holy Spirit takes up residence in them according to his timing, giving them new life. At that point they have received him, and will to do good, good according to God's definition, though they may not even have realized what has happened. They necessarily will, then, repent of their sin (and continue to repent according to His urging) understanding is increased and knowledge of God, and so on.

    They may or may not know they are saved. Those who think they know, and in my experience, particularly those who think it is by their decision they are saved, since they have learned not to trust themselves and their silly weak decisions, will have doubts because of bad theology and failure to obey. Those who know it is God who saves, may still have doubts because of failure to obey. (In both kinds of believers, failure to obey, particularly repeated willful failure in any one area, makes one resemble the unsaved, and the soul grieves, the heart aches for cleanliness, and so the attitude of repentance). And in both, (for the one by experience in contrast to their theology, in the other by experience and theology), they learn joy in the plain fact that God is the one doing all things, and that, for his own sake, and that God is VERY pleased with the work of his hands, and that he will indeed accomplish whatever he set out to do.

    The believer may even find at some point that the fact that God will accomplish what he does, and that, for his own sake, is more important and more satisfying than the believer's very existence and eternal destiny.

    I say much of this from personal experience, and from long study of Scriptures, the study both causing and affirming the experience.

    Also, for both kinds of believers, there is the witness of the Spirit within them, which is not unrelated to the other matters concerning the feeling of security, and this shows in many ways, such as the feeling of brotherhood with other believers and love for God. These are necessarily subjective, yet the to the Spirit of God, they are known facts, and the witness of the Spirit convinces as a sure thing. Yet, for the "believer" who only thinks himself elect, the subjective can be self-deceit. But God is the judge, not the person. For myself, I have learned to have the most trust in those who KNOW they need Christ.

    You may not like this answer, but God does what he does, and nobody can criticize him. Some of us, he causes to believe the truth, others he allows to be deceived. And always, not only is there a mix of truth and error, but there is the prevalence of the simple fact that we are human, limited in mind, resolve and focus. The fact a person believes the truth does not mean that person understands the whole matter --far from it! Likewise, even though a believer may have a false understanding of a matter does not mean that the Spirit has abandoned him, but rather the Spirit, at his own pleasure, will lead those whom God has chosen into all [categories?] of truth. But ALL people's comprehension begins with the worldview of the fallen, the unbeliever, at enmity with Christ, and influenced by their upbringing, circumstances and experiences. To all of us, this will mean a more insistent trust in one or another assumption.

    But the mind of the believer is transformed, not only radically, by regeneration, but over time and application and of Scripture, Practice (application), Discipline and Experience, all of which are effected (caused) and effective by the work of God
     
  17. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Thanks Mark for the time you put into the reply! I meant the question more practically, not who is doing the saving.

    I will copy paste my experience.

    "For me personally, when I started to believe the truth I got absolutely terrified. I thought God would never forgive me and that I had a one way ticket downwards. So I prayed to God in my despair that I believed He had sent His Son to die for our sins and if He would forgive me, I would give my whole life to Him. There and then I realised I was forgiven and that I had become a Christian, I believe born again, saved."

    The thing is, I would never ever take credit for being saved. It was God who saved me. God lead me to repentance and I got saved. The fact that it was I that prayed to God for forgiveness, doesn't by any means nullify His grace, because it was all by the grace of God I got saved.

    I don't have much to comment on here. I know that I got saved. I believe that I still am saved. Sometimes I fall in doubt, but it feels like the Holy Spirit is afirming I'm with Christ. Anyhow I trust in Christ alone for my salvation, not in feelings. That's a better way, since feelings can be missleading.

    All Christians, I think, know we need Christ in one way or another. If we hope on our own strength to be saved, it can of course be a problem. I guess you are refering to people that know they are sinners and know they need mercy. It's better to be a sinner and acknowledge it, than be "sinless" with no need for Christ, obviously. :)

    Surely it's so, just because we are saved doesn't mean we know everything and got all theology correct. Thankfully we are not saved by having right theology, but by being born again by the Holy Spirit.

    Yes, surely we are transformed!
     
  18. Mark Quayle

    Mark Quayle Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Do you not see there, the fact that until God began a work in you, you had not consciousness of sin, that is, a conscience concerning it, (other than the usual from upbringing, perhaps a respect for the law, and the natural conscience all people have (in varying degrees), and perhaps a little sensibility of "things aren't right"?) The Spirit has the right and ability to do as God pleases with anybody both before and after regeneration, yet, according to the Word, no person is able to change their fallen will, nor do they want to, until God changes it, and then, no person will avoid repentance. (Romans 8)

    If there had been no repentance, but all the other things you describe were true, you would not have been regenerated, nor would your prayers have accomplished anything but God's use of them in his work on you. "If we confess our sin, he is faithful and just to have already forgiven us (this is the Greek sense-- accomplished, completed in the past) our sin, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." If we do not confess our sin, he will not have forgiven us.

    The Elect in regeneration see these things, pretty much unavoidably, from our own perspective, time sequence, and for most, intensity of emotion, so that we may think it was our prayer, or our acceptance, that made the difference --in fact, so much so that a virulent reaction arises from being told otherwise-- and some may even ascribe credit to themselves, as though their action approved them to God. What is amazing to me is that God does not upbraid them for thinking so, but with the same patience, tenderness and wisdom with which he drew them to himself, he continues to teach them.

    Haha, I thought that was practical. I'm wondering if by "practical" you mean how does the question apply from the human point of view. From our point of view, it may well seem, (as I said above), that it all happened, perhaps almost magically, from our decision, but as in my experience after (or so I think) I was born again, God has taken me places I did not expect, by showing me (very painfully) that my will is flighty, my intellect is not up to the challenge, my integrity (in and of myself) non-existent or self-serving, and my emotions subjective. He can harden me and soften me, and he has done both, repeatedly, for his own purposes. Slowly I have come to realize that he owes me nothing, I have earned nothing, and even my "Christian success" (that is, from my POV, my obedience, primarily) is not as important to him as his use of me is, for his own sake. It is interesting, amazing, to me that he is willing to die for even further sinning while he makes each of us into that particular member of the Bride of Christ that he had planned from the beginning. His own work, His satisfaction and pleasure in what he is doing for his own sake, has become my greater satisfaction, than even the faith in his promises concerning the next life. My confidence is in the fact that he will surely accomplish whatever he set out to do for his own sake, and if I am not of the Elect, so be it --God knows I deserve no better-- but if I am one of his own, so much the better. "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain".
     
  19. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    There’s a problem with this explanation. No one can come to Christ unless The Father draws him. Who did Jesus say who sowed the tares? Was it The Father? The planter’s enemy planted the tares. The enemy cannot draw someone to Christ and yet Jesus said anyone who does not remain in Him will be cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. Furthermore Paul said to the Judiaser Galatians you have been severed from Christ, you have fallen from grace. Paul says these people were given grace. Are tares given grace? Does the enemy give grace? So next time you compare someone to the tares keep in mind these people cannot be in Christ, they have not been given grace. Simon Magus was a tare. He is the kind of person Jesus referred to in Matthew 7:21-27. There’s a difference between someone who fails to abide in Christ and a person to whom Jesus will say I never knew you. Those to whom Jesus says I never knew you can’t be severed from Christ. They can’t fail to abide in Christ. You can’t be severed from Christ or fail to remain in Him if He never knew you.
     
  20. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think you make a misstake here. I don't believe it's that simple as A points to B and B to C. The first thing is your view on grace. I believe grace can be resisted and that we also can do things that enables grace. By our free will we make choices which God uses. I will tell you a story from an article I read.

    This man, a Swede with a fatal illness, saw these homeless Romanians on the street. He started to think about their situation. One day he decided to let them sleep in and use his trailer. These Romanians turned out to be Christians and they started to pray for him. The man was certain he was going to die, but when the Romanians prayed he was filled with bubbling joy and was totally healed from illness and came to faith in our risen savior.

    What is there to learn from this story? God showed this man compassion just like he had shown his neighbors, the Romanians compassion. I believe this was a free will choice the man made to help the Romanians, and God in all His glory saw this act of compassion. So was the man the reason for his own salvation? No, God opened the door for him to do, if he so chose, an act of big compassion. It was also God who by grace responed to the prayers of the Romanians, but if this man had chosen differently by free will, he would probably be dead today.

    You can always argue that God gave this man the will to help the Romanians, but I believe it was a choice he made by free will, maybe overcoming an inner struggle what his neighbors might think and so on.

    I say: If a man is saved it's by God's grace. If a man is lost, it's by his own fault.

    Why do I then believe in free will?

    1. The Bible says God wants everyone's salvation. So if God wants this, yet not everyone is saved it must be because of man.

    2. If a man has no free will, there can't be any sin. Because no one can be held responsible for something if there isn't a possibilty to will differently.

    3. It fits the character of a loving God, and gives a reasonable explanation for the fall of Lucifer and also man, without putting the blame on God.

    4. Personal experience.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2020
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