At What Point Do You Think You Are Truly Saved?

[RickReads]

Do we know if anyone has truly rejected him in their hearts? Only God knows. The option to reject him must exist as I believe he created us with free agency, but I don't believe that rejecting "Christianity" as a religion, or rejecting the Christian fundamentalist version of God, or Calvinism, or whatever (because those are the only versions of God that is known to a person) is the same as rejecting HIM.

That makes you sound like a Universalist but you are evading answering the question he asked you.
Sounds like you believe in paths to salvation apart from Christianity?

 

[RickReads]

No, I do not believe that *causes* all of these things. Rather, I believe that he primarily allows the consequences of the choices we make, including the extremely horrifying ones, and suffers with us when we suffer. He helps and restores us amidst the calamities of a fallen world and looks forward to the day when his creation is fully restored and the reconciliation through Jesus Christ is fully realized.

God is always working to turn what is evil into good.

Does he *sometimes* discipline? Yes. But not for the purpose of causing pain and suffering. Even with Israel and then Judah, he was preparing the way for a Shepherd and not the seemingly endless line of fallible human kings who mostly did evil and caused hardship and pain for those they ruled (as God predicted they would when the people demanded a king and God allowed it.)

Over and over and over God gives us choices, but does not promise that we will be exempt from the consequences of those choices, or even the choices that others make.

I don't worship God because I am terrified to do otherwise. What a horrible way to live with someone! I worship God because (though not limited to these things) I see his great goodness, his love, his joy in his creation, his neverending compassion even for those who continue to hurt him, and because he is trustworthy and keeps his promises.

So God`s a big softy?

 

[bekkilyn]

We have two different Gods. So any discussion is a waste of time.

I am sincerely sorry you seem unable to recognize God's great goodness.

 

[bekkilyn]

That makes you sound like a Universalist but you are evading answering the question he asked you.
Sounds like you believe in paths to salvation apart from Christianity?

I believe there is indeed salvation apart from the *religion* known as Christianity. It is the way, and the truth, and the life in *Christ* that is the path of salvation. BIG difference.

Both Universalists and Calvinists are opposed to our having the free agency to reject God's grace.

If you wish to put a label on my theology, it is primarily Wesleyan.

So God`s a big softy?

Only by the standards of those who lack confidence and seem to fear being perceived as weak.

 

[RickReads]

I believe there is indeed salvation apart from the *religion* known as Christianity. It is the way, and the truth, and the life in *Christ* that is the path of salvation. BIG difference.

Both Universalists and Calvinists are opposed to our having the free agency to reject God's grace.

If you wish to put a label on my theology, it is primarily Wesleyan.



Only by the standards of those who lack confidence and seem to fear being perceived as weak.

Wesleyan doctrine backs up my position.

"God's foreknowledge of the future is exhaustive and complete, and therefore the future is certain and not contingent on human action. God does not determine the future, but He does know it. God's certainty and human contingency are compatible"

Arminianism - Wikipedia

 

[bekkilyn]

Wesleyan doctrine backs up my position.

"God's foreknowledge of the future is exhaustive and complete, and therefore the future is certain and not contingent on human action. God does not determine the future, but He does know it. God's certainty and human contingency are compatible"

Arminianism - Wikipedia

We were already both in agreement that God is ominiscient, so what are you trying to use this quote (specifically from the Open Theism section described as a minority Arminian view) to prove?

My argument here is and has always been that God extends his grace to ALL and seeks to save everyone except that we have the choice to reject him, and so those who are not saved will not be saved. I would challenge you to find where John Wesley (and hence Wesleyan theology) disagrees with this argument.

 

[RickReads]

We were already both in agreement that God is ominiscient, so what are you trying to use this quote (specifically from the Open Theism section described as a minority Arminian view) to prove?

My argument here is and has always been that God extends his grace to ALL and seeks to save everyone except that we have the choice to reject him, and so those who are not saved will not be saved. I would challenge you to find where John Wesley (and hence Wesleyan theology) disagrees with this argument.

John Wesley believed salvation is available to all in the generic sense as do I. He also believed that people are unable to respond to the offer without God`s help which he termed "awakenings" as do I.

“The grace or love of God, whence cometh our salvation, is FREE IN ALL, and FREE FOR ALL… Whatsoever good is in man, or is done by man, God is the author and doer of it.”

 

[Psalm 27]

Sorry, not meant to be unkind. It's just that we see it all the time, quoted verses that can mean many different things, and no explanation given.

It’s ok. Its funny, but I see many ‘theological’ explanations, with usually very little scripture. We all see different things. Thought Jesus’ words in that verse were pretty self explanatory tbh

 

[Psalm 27]

John Wesley believed salvation is available to all in the generic sense as do I. He also believed that people are unable to respond to the offer without God`s help which he termed "awakenings" as do I.

“The grace or love of God, whence cometh our salvation, is FREE IN ALL, and FREE FOR ALL… Whatsoever good is in man, or is done by man, God is the author and doer of it.”

Are you from from ‘Auckland’ ?

 

[RickReads]

Are you from from ‘Auckland’ ?

I`m a Indiana hillbilly.

 

[bekkilyn]

John Wesley believed salvation is available to all in the generic sense as do I. He also believed that people are unable to respond to the offer without God`s help which he termed "awakenings" as do I.

“The grace or love of God, whence cometh our salvation, is FREE IN ALL, and FREE FOR ALL… Whatsoever good is in man, or is done by man, God is the author and doer of it.”

No one has claimed that it isn't God who enables us with the ability to respond to his grace, and naturally God preveniently does just that. Did you just decide you needed to come up with some new argument that wasn't at all being argued or discussed?

"Yet this is no excuse for those who continue in sin, and lay the blame upon their Maker, by saying, 'It is God only that must quicken us; for we cannot quicken our own souls.' For allowing that all the souls of men are dead in sin by nature, this excuses none, seeing there is no man that is in a state of mere nature; there is no man, unless he has quenched the Spirit, that is wholly void of the grace of God. No man living is entirely destitute of what is vulgarly called natural conscience. But this is not natural: It is more properly termed preventing grace. Every man has a greater or less measure of this, which waiteth not for the call of man. Every one has, sooner or later, good desires; although the generality of men stifle them before they can strike deep root, or produce any considerable fruit. Everyone has some measure of that light, some faint glimmering ray, which, sooner or later, more or less, enlightens every man that cometh into the world. And every one, unless he be one of the small number whose conscience is seared as with a hot iron, feels more or less uneasy when he acts contrary to the light of his own conscience. So that no man sins because he has not grace, but because he does not use the grace which he hath." - On Working Out Our Own Salvation (John Wesley)

However, if you truly believe that Wesleyan theology has stated anywhere that God has pre-ordained only a small, select few for his saving grace while also creating billions and billions of people for the sole purpose of eternal suffering and torture, then I yet again challenge you to point it out.

 

[RickReads]

However, if you truly believe that Wesleyan theology has stated anywhere that God has pre-ordained only a small, select few for his saving grace while also creating billions and billions of people for the sole purpose of eternal suffering and torture, then I yet again challenge you to point it out.

I would make the same challenge of you to point out where I said such a thing. I think your often repetition of this remark is a tell, that you are worried.

 

[bekkilyn]

I would make the same challenge of you to point out where I said such a thing. I think your often repetition of this remark is a tell, that you are worried.

I honestly have no idea why you are arguing with me. I repeat my statement because it's the only argument I'm making on this thread in spite of whatever attempts you might be making to derail it.

 

[RickReads]

I honestly have no idea why you are arguing with me. I repeat my statement because it's the only argument I'm making on this thread in spite of whatever attempts you might be making to derail it.

Well, I believe God knows everyone's outcome in advance. I believe the Bible affirms that he does. I won`t repeat your words, but according to you, if that is true then God is more or less unjust. I was interested in suggesting an alternative based on scripture, but I have failed to get past your walls.
I think you will probably be polluted by fear until you resolve this issue. I don`t believe for a minute that you have. I really didn`t want to box, that`s just the way it turned out.

 

[bekkilyn]

Well, I believe God knows everyone's outcome in advance. I believe the Bible affirms that he does. I won`t repeat your words, but according to you, if that is true then God is more or less unjust. I was interested in suggesting an alternative based on scripture, but I have failed to get past your walls.
I think you will probably be polluted by fear until you resolve this issue. I don`t believe for a minute that you have. I really didn`t want to box, that`s just the way it turned out.

There is a difference between omniscience and pre-destining the future, which would indeed be unjust, to hold persons accountable for something they cannot choose.

"The Lord is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

I'm baffled at your statement about me being "polluted by fear". God is loving and good and full of grace, ever-seeking the full and complete restoration of his entire creation. He has promised good things for all who seek him and desire him, and we can be complete in him and in our assurance of his salvation, both in there here and now and in the future.

Where you are reading fear into any of those things, I can't even begin to imagine.

This conversation might end up winning my informal "weirdest of the week" though I'm sure something on one of the political threads would probably still end up the victor.

 

[RickReads]

There is a difference between omniscience and pre-destining the future, which would indeed be unjust, to hold persons accountable for something they cannot choose.

"The Lord is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

I'm baffled at your statement about me being "polluted by fear". God is loving and good and full of grace, ever-seeking the full and complete restoration of his entire creation. He has promised good things for all who seek him and desire him, and we can be complete in him and in our assurance of his salvation, both in there here and now and in the future.

Where you are reading fear into any of those things, I can't even begin to imagine.

This conversation might end up winning my informal "weirdest of the week" though I'm sure something on one of the political threads would probably still end up the victor.

LOL! I say sincerely, I find this one funny.

So those who reject the gospel or never hear it deserve the eternal torture that you are believing for them to receive?

 

[bekkilyn]

LOL! I say sincerely, I find this one funny.

So those who reject the gospel or never hear it deserve the eternal torture that you are believing for them to receive?

Okay, that's it. I've tried to give you the benefit of the doubt in continuing this discussion, but I've never once made that argument or stated such a belief. You're just coming up with ridiculous things for the sake of arguing, so we're done.

 

[RickReads]

Okay, that's it. I've tried to give you the benefit of the doubt in continuing this discussion, but I've never once made that argument or stated such a belief. You're just coming up with ridiculous things for the sake of arguing, so we're done.

Sorry, I was just curious to know what you think will happen to the ignorant and the lost. If I wasn`t interested I wouldn`t ask, your hostility is another tell IMO.

 

[bekkilyn]

Sorry, I was just curious to know what you think will happen to the ignorant and the lost. If I wasn`t interested I wouldn`t ask, your hostility is another tell IMO.

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/873/260/a5b.png

 

[RickReads]

I believe God reserves the power to have mercy on whom He will. Let me share a hint the Bible gives us .

"Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth."