Assurance of Salvation

[BryanW92]

I never understood why you had to leave the UMC to discover the absolute greatness of God. That's a point of shared theology, not a point of difference. But I am glad you discovered it, and if leaving the UMC was necessary to discover it, then I'm glad you ended up leaving as well -- if only to complete your own spiritual journey.

It might just be a regional thing. We just don't hear it down here from the pulpit. Its like the UM clergy have conceded that concept to the Calvinists/Baptists. Even before I left the church, I was moving in the direction of "awestruck wonder". I'd get going on that subject in my bible study from time to time, with increasing frequency. People were receptive to the idea, but would always mention that my inner Baptist must be coming out.

I know that the UMC is a holiness church, but in this area, holiness is mostly a "head thing" and not a "heart thing". We talk about it a lot, but it scares us when someone gets it. I think that we're afraid that holy rolling is coming next.

 

[BryanW92]

I think that we're afraid that holy rolling is coming next.

Or hand raising during singing!

 

[RomansFiveEight]

Or hand raising during singing!

Once in a while I'll ask for a show of hands during the sermon or solicit some other sort of response. A few folks give me a fear-for-my-life stare.

 

[BryanW92]

Once in a while I'll ask for a show of hands during the sermon or solicit some other sort of response. A few folks give me a fear-for-my-life stare.

They're afraid that you'll break into song while their hands are up and then they're committed.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

They're afraid that you'll break into song while their hands are up and then they're committed.

Hahahaha.

 

[GraceSeeker]

I used to engage my congregation in rhetorical conversations, asking questions that I assumed they knew the answers to, and not really expecting an answer. Well, I did this so frequently that one Sunday one of our 6th graders actually answered me. Now, when I ask I really am looking for their feedback -- though sometimes it isn't what I expected.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

The first time I did it it was a simple question. "Who has a hobby". I was using an illustration about hobbies. I got one hand raised, and lots of looks. I then said "Wow. You guys are boring". Which got a couple of chuckles. I got more "participation" after that. I think they are just so used to sitting quietly and listening to the sermon. But engaging (hand raising, rhetorical questions, media, etc.), helps with retention, or do they say.

 

[circuitrider]

I would have gone farther than circuitrider. The reason we don't know "the elects are elects in the bible and leave it to that," is because that isn't in the Bible.

Yes, I agree completely Graceseeker. My main gripe with Calvinism is that I don't believe it is Biblical.

 

[MystyRock]

Okay, so maybe 'easier' was a bit of a stretch. I'll own that one. I guess it's just a product of my experience. "Set and forget" OSAS always left me feeling like, that can't be right; God can't be that simple. And while functionally Methodism is essentially the same in the ease of accepting Grace (and as you pointed out well, how 'easy' it is to not reject God); I appreciate what feels to be as a more obedient approach; which is recognizing that one CAN reject God.

Actually, I thought the Methodist approach was harder, maybe because of my background. In the past, we were taught the beliefs of the church and questions were not encouraged. Everything was group-based, no real individual responsibility. When I left that church, I felt so alone because I missed the group.

Now, I enjoy learning and asking questions; and it is more work. Not because I have to, but because I want to learn.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

Actually, I thought the Methodist approach was harder, maybe because of my background. In the past, we were taught the beliefs of the church and questions were not encouraged. Everything was group-based, no real individual responsibility. When I left that church, I felt so alone because I missed the group.

Now, I enjoy learning and asking questions; and it is more work. Not because I have to, but because I want to learn.

Sounds like you and I had similar experiences. As a kid growing up asking questions was sinful; blind obedience, salvation comes through a special prayer, and everything is simply and literal and easy and we're supposed to hate everyone who isn't exactly like us. Though, it had some good things. It made me look seriously at my own theology, and reflect genuinely on who I was as a Christian, and it led me to my home in the UMC.

 

[MystyRock]

Sounds like you and I had similar experiences. As a kid growing up asking questions was sinful; blind obedience, salvation comes through a special prayer, and everything is simply and literal and easy and we're supposed to hate everyone who isn't exactly like us. Though, it had some good things. It made me look seriously at my own theology, and reflect genuinely on who I was as a Christian, and it led me to my home in the UMC.

Interesting, and very familiar. Took me a little longer to break out of that environment. I had to get to a very low point in my life; made me look up.

 

[Anto9us]

hadn't been in this forum for a while.

Now I come in and I see Calvinists urinating on the feet of Methodists and the Methodists trying to be very nice and tolerant and saying "Gee -- it must be raining!"

Don't the Calvinists have practically the REST OF THE CF Board in which to spew their TULIP stuff?

As far as OSAS vs OSnAS - why not get back behind Wesley to the actual source?

Arminius said words to the effect that "it is not possible that a BELIEVER can lose their salvation -- but it is possible that a person can CHOOSE to CEASE BEING A 'BELIEVER'."

That is the precise answer.

One can choose to believe - and then, it is rare, - but one can choose to disbelieve.

Even the Remonstrants - the "supporters" of Arminus who supported his different ideas on predestination against the Beza-Calvinists of the time (who hounded Arminius to an early grave)

even the Remonstrants' official position was that it was unclear to them from the Scriptures whether this "ceasing to be a believer" was possible or not - iow - the Remonstrants, ostensibly the supporters and defenders of the late Arminius against the TULIP-sniffers of the Council of DORT days -- even they did not understand or could not go the whole distance of what Arminius so clearly delineated.

Wesley came along later re-emphasizing some Arminian ideas -- Wesley's longest-running publication of his own was THE ARMINIAN MAGAZINE.

I would submit -- in the strongest possible terms I can -- that I feel the "non-members of this Faith-Group" should get on a boat and go back to from where they came; and abide by the statement of purpose for this particular forum.

I find what has gone on with no regard for these rules to -- frankly -- be quite disgusting.

And Calvinism is not only "not biblical" -- it is not original to Johnny Calvin -- his views on Double predestination are a rehashing of Augustine a 1,000 years later.

And let it be realized that THE ANCIENT CHURCH in Augustine's time (5th century) did NOT rubber-stamp these bizarre views of Augustine that "God decrees who goes to hell 'by his own good pleasure' and a human's part doesn't make a drop in the bucket"

The ancient church -- while siding with Augustine on just about everything else -- could not rubber-stamp his battle with Pelagius regarding the double-predestination of Augustine.

Johnny "I only wanted to behead Servetus, not burn him" Calvin...

he re-vomited the Double-Predestination of Augustine which the church had oficially rejected long ago in a mediating position of Semi-Pelagianism -- which I think is WRONG as regards the "works-faith" side of it, but was RIGHT in the predestination part of it.

btw, Arminius does not deny predestination exists, he explains it as "pre-destination by foreknowledge"

One cannot dismiss predestination totally from the bible - the bible speaks of predestination

But Arminius EXPLAINS it -- beating Calvinists on their own ground and in their own terms

explains it in a way that you can see man's free will - rather than "who can resist his will?"

Please - I would adjure the non-Wesleyans to abide by the CF rules governing faith groups

and I personally think there is nothing more odious than an

"I use to think like you do - but now I have seen the light" perspective.

It's lower than a snake's belly in a wagon rut.

 

[Anto9us]

So - existentially -- all one need do is ASK THEMSELVES -- "Do I still BELIEVE?"

and if so -- go sing BLESSED ASSURANCE as loud as one can.

If you look within yourself and cannot say "I still believe" then you are on thin ice, and the Hebrews passage should be acknowledged.

"Predestination by foreknowledge" does NOT trump free will... does not make God the ONE CAUSING a given individual's non-belief.

If I see one car careening through an intersection - running a stop-sign at twice the speed limit - and heading straight for another car...

I can "foresee" a collision.

But I in no way CAUSED the collision.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

Tell us how you REALLY feel now, don't sugar coat it.

I don't mind the fellowship. If we can learn from one another, I'm all for it! Actually, we've had some fantastic discussions with people of other understandings; who were in here with a desire to broaden and grow.

Attitude, is what it's all about I think. When people come into our little corner of unfundamentalism (You're right, the forum is decidedly very different than our little group here; overwhelmingly, evangelical protestant in it's purest forum. Which in itself is sort of a funny term but I don't think Evangelical UM's are really 'Evangelical Protestants', because even the most Evangelical UM Clergy I know would be left-wing hippies in most traditions coined as Evangelical Protestant), and they come in because they want perspective and to grow; even if they continue to disagree. Or they simply want to know something about their heritage. A while back someone came in here who was very much a Baptist but found out they had an ancestor who was a Methodist Pastor; and they wanted to know about Methodism. We had good discussions. We have the perspective of someone who left the UMC but isn't here to argue; though he presents his perspectives and griefs.

And then, on occasion, we have someone who comes in here wanting to convert us all, asserts that there's a "biblical" way and a "methodist" way, and that we should choose from those two (i.e., we should look at the Bible their way), and will not concede that we believe we are following the Bible. Unfortunately, it seems the moderators have forgotten about our dusty little corner; but, it never lasts for long. Frankly, if we (and I'm as guilty as anyone, if not the guiltiest) didn't engage in unfruitful discussions, then they'd probably not take off.

And I hope I'm not seen as "I used to think like you, then I saw the light". Though that is, in some ways, my story. I do believe that God led me to a place other than where I was raised and I do believe that where I am is the realist understanding of God and the Bible; I wouldn't be here if I didn't believe that. But that doesn't mean I believe that others aren't also working out their salvation, or following God faithfully.

(P.S., nice to have you around here. More voices more better!)

 

[circuitrider]

Tell us how you REALLY feel now, don't sugar coat it.

I don't mind the fellowship. If we can learn from one another, I'm all for it! Actually, we've had some fantastic discussions with people of other understandings; who were in here with a desire to broaden and grow.

(P.S., nice to have you around here. More voices more better!)

Anto9us, I appreciate your perspective. I don't mind the fellowship either RomansFiveEight. But lets face it, fellowship isn't what some of our recent Baptist posters were after. They were here to tell us what we should believe rather than the Wesleyan Christianity that we do indeed believe to be Biblical.

Anto9us, maybe we have been too nice. I've spent a lot of years trying to walk softly around Calvinists and other conservative Christians because I was in churches or denominations that they controlled. It may be a bad habit that I need to break.

As you've said, on this section of the forum is one of the few places that Wesleyan Christians aren't over run with Calvinists. We need to protect this safe haven.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

Anto9us, I appreciate your perspective. I don't mind the fellowship either RomansFiveEight. But lets face it, fellowship isn't what some of our recent Baptist posters were after. They were here to tell us what we should believe rather than the Wesleyan Christianity that we do indeed believe to be Biblical.

Anto9us, maybe we have been too nice. I've spent a lot of years trying to walk softly around Calvinists and other conservative Christians because I was in churches or denominations that they controlled. It may be a bad habit that I need to break.

As you've said, on this section of the forum is one of the few places that Wesleyan Christians aren't over run with Calvinists. We need to protect this safe haven.

I'm outnumbered. Significantly. 20 churches in my community. 1 United Methodist, 1 Roman Catholic, 1 Lutheran (very conservative LCMS) 1 Nazarene (former UM Pastor who left the UMC because it was 'too liberal'), and the rest all say "Baptist" on the sign. If you're counting, that 16 Baptist churches in one small town (though almost all of them are very tiny splinter churches when someone got mad at someone else at First Baptist). The ministerial alliance kicked us out when we had a female Pastor and before that, when there was a pulpit swap with First Baptist, the FBC board nearly fired (seriously, they even took a vote to fire) the Pastor because they let a "Liberal" preach in their church (aka, a UMC Pastor who believed women could be ordained and the Bible wasn't literal). They didn't even let the guy preach. They knew who he was and when he said he was there for a pulpit swap, the 'deacons' made him leave. In UMC Circles, this individual would be considered an Evangelical. (If a former Progressive Pastor we had had preached in FBC it would've probably been struck my lightning. The gates of hell would split open and it would be discovered completely frozen.)

Oh, and one of those splinter churches is made up of the people who voted 'yes' to firing the Pastor because he let a Methodist preach.

So I feel you when you talk about tiptoeing. But even so, I think it's the Christian call to be gracious. But, at the same time, I agree we have to stand up and say "You know what, I really, really believe this. I believe it because I'm being obedient to God and the scriptures. And I believe you aren't", rather than continuing to engage with and attempt futile discussion with someone who has zero desire to learn or grow, and wants only to demand our conversion to their understanding of scripture.

I've also noticed that the only moderators bearing a cross and flame logo are still active, but haven't posted in Wesleys Parish in a long, long, long time. I'm sure it's because we're small and decidedly less active; and they have a very large forum to patrol. But even so, it does sometimes get to be a bit 'much' when people can troll on these forums in direct violation of the forums rules for days or even weeks; and never any intervention despite reports and pleas. I DO understand though. I was asked to be a moderator on a large motorcycle forum I'm active on (of all places), and I'm one of only two mods on a forum of about 100,000 active posters. It's a great group that doesn't need much policing but even so, I've actually had people from 'my corner' of that forum (the corner specific to the model of motorcycle I ride) PM me or e-mail me and mention that they haven't seen me around in a while. Truth is, I log on frequently. I just have a large forum to skim through, so I often skim through that section without posting. So I don't fault the mods; but I am disappointed. Reports are usually responded to by the two of us within a few hours, BUT, we get very very few reports. It's not as 'controversial' of a forum as this one is.

 

[circuitrider]

The hard part is knowing when to stop being gracious.

 

[MystyRock]

And it can be a little confusing for someone with questions.

 

[RomansFiveEight]

And it can be a little confusing for someone with questions.

I'm sincerely sorry for that. I engaged when I shouldn't have and contributed to your thread with some very genuine and important questions getting way out of hand and being about theological debate, rather than helping you in your journey. And for that I'm sorry.

But, I think by now you know who around here can give you a healthy perspective of what Methodists believe, if that continues to be your question. And, inversely, who can give you a healthy dose of what others believe.

 

[MystyRock]

Thanks. I do enjoy reading the various replies; I'm still working through some difficult topics. And I appreciate everyone's patience. My mind is like a jigsaw puzzle; not filled in, gaps between areas. Slowly connecting. ...