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Assurance of Salvation

MystyRock

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In the other thread, comments were made that salvation was a work in progress. One of the key points I previously heard for OSAS, was the assurance of salvation; Once you were saved, you could never lose it.

How do you explain this assurance to someone in the Methodist world? If you are continually working toward this goal, you can never obtain it in this life?
 

JCFantasy23

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I don't believe a person loses their salvation without a conscious effort. In other words, when you come to God, he won't ever abandon you. You're not going to make him angry or suddenly change his mind and lose your salvation. I do believe a person can turn their back on God, however, or fall away from the faith completely. I don't think that's common, for it's hard to come to know God and then leave Him, but I believe it can happen.
 
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RomansFiveEight

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I don't believe a person loses their salvation without a conscious effort. In other words, when you come to God, he won't ever abandon you. You're not going to make him angry or suddenly change his mind and lose your salvation. I do believe a person can turn their back on God, however, or fall away from the faith completely. I don't think that's common, for it's hard to come to know God and then leave Him, but I believe it can happen.

Bingo.

What I don't like about OSAS is that it seems like a binding contract. Like salvation comes with a lifetime warranty and no matter how you abuse it God is somehow bound to it, God's hands are tied. I don't think it works like that. Salvation is God's gift to give, and we know through the scriptures and his son Jesus that there is assurance in it being a freely offered gift. But we must accept it. And as Circuitrider put it in another thread; we don't lose free will when we become a Christian. We may choose, of our own free will, to reject God.

You don't lose salvation like you lose a quarter out of your pocket. It doesn't happen by accident.

An example is the young girl who grows up in the church, but begins to struggle with her faith. At some point, she rejects the church. And at some point, rejects God. Spends her life a self-proclaimed Atheist and an opponent of faith. A OSAS proponent would say one of two things. Either A) She is still saved because she prayed the sinners prayer or otherwise did some sort of work that bound God's hand or B) She was never saved in the first place. The latter is the one I hear the most, but it ignores free will. If we cannot lose salvation, then either we don't have free will, or we control God. Neither is true. I believe that girl was saved, and lost her salvation. I also believe God's prevenient grace will be at work through every breath of her life pleading for her to return; but stopping short of forcing her to return. It must be her own decision.
 
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MystyRock

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Yes, I've always heard if you were chosen by God, you could not resist God. No such thing as free will - everything is predetermined. If someone doubted (or questioned), they must not be one of the chosen.

Methodists are ok with asking questions, admitting you are not sure about God.

Some days you feel closer to God, sometimes not as much. God does not move - it is us. Even though we might wander in the wrong direction - we should still be assured of salvation?
 
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RomansFiveEight

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Yes, I've always heard if you were chosen by God, you could not resist God. No such thing as free will - everything is predetermined. If someone doubted (or questioned), they must not be one of the chosen.

Methodists are ok with asking questions, admitting you are not sure about God.

Some days you feel closer to God, sometimes not as much. God does not move - it is us. Even though we might wander in the wrong direction - we should still be assured of salvation?

What you're describing is called predestination, and the doctrine of irresistible grace. Methodists and many Christians don't subscribe to that particular doctrine of being chosen by God.

For Wesleyan Christians, like United Methodists; we view God's grace in distinct and important ways.

The first is prevenient Grace, that God is calling you and yearning for you, and that God is freely offering you grace. This is universal. Each human being on earth is universally given this grace by God, and we have free will; which means we can resist it.

Justifying Grace is the grace that Jesus gave us on the cross. By dying in our place for our sins, we were given a way to have redemption for our own sins. We must chose this grace. We may reject this grace.

Finally, is sanctifying grace. The grace that God encourages and helps us to grow in God and become more Christ-like, reject sin, and love and care for one another. Becoming Holy, more and more each day. It's the fruit of accepting God's prevenient and justifying grace.

Assurance of Salvation is tough; because I'm not God; I can't tell you that you are saved or are not saved. Lots of folks out there would like to tell you you are or aren't, but as I'm not God; I don't know that. But I do believe our salvation should always be worked out with fear and trembling. Given the God's promise in the scriptures to save those who give themselves to God; I have a hard time believing that if you are genuinely and earnestly seeking God and seeking to grow in God; that you should be concerned about your own salvation (but salvation should constantly be worked toward!), but barring you aren't going to lose your salvation on accident; it would come from a conscientious decision to reject God.
 
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Emmy

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Dear MystyRock. In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus tells: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: Love thy neighbour as thyself." In verse 40,
Jesus tells us: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." God wants our love, freely given and NO conditions tagged on.
What do we do? In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: " ask and you shall receive,"
ask God for Love and Joy, then thank God and share all Love and Joy with our neighbour. ( all we know and all we meet, friends and not friends) Keep asking God for Love and Joy, then thank God, and share all Love and Joy with your neighbour. We might stumble and forget at times, but then we ask God to forgive us, and carry on loving and caring. Love is a Christian`s strong weapon, with love we can overcome all anger and malice, and people will treat us the same as we treat people.
In Luke 10: 25-28: Jesus is asked: " Master, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus answered: " You know the two Commandments to Love God and love your neighbour? DO THIS AND YOU SHALL LIVE." The Bible tells us:
" Repent and be Born Again," we must give up our selfish wishes and wants,
and start Loving God and loving our neighbour. God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters. The Holy Spirit will help and guide us, and
Jesus our Saviour will lead us all the way: JESUS IS THE WAY.
I say this with love, MystyRock. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
 
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circuitrider

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MystyRock,

Unfortunately your threads are being highjacked by Baptist theology. Sorry, I know this isn't helpful for a new Wesleyan Christian other than that it is an example of how conservative Baptists often believe it is their duty to try to convert everyone else to the way they think even if that is done by violating the rules where they post.

Assurance does not come from some idea that we can no longer choose to walk away from God as the incipient Calvinism that Skypair is teaching states. Assurance comes from the fact that our God is trustworthy and that it is God's desire that none should perish but that all should know life.

God's grace was working in your life before you ever responded. As you grow in God's grace God promised to perfect you (that is making you more Christ like.) You can of your own free will walk away. But God never walks away from you.

John Wesley believed in assurance. He felt that assurance at Aldersgate when his heart was strangely warmed.

Be aware that just because someone is confident and says "well that's the Biblical perspective" doesn't mean it is. It means that it is their perspective on what the Bible says.

Until such a time as the powers that be remove skypair for violating the forum rules, we'll just have to work around this constant barrage of fundamentalist Baptist theology.
 
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GraceSeeker

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Note: I have read the OP, but not the above discussion. I find I agree with 98% of what circuitrider and RomansFiveEight say and that we just tend to use different illustrations to make basically the same points. So my apologies if I end up repeating their thoughts, but I was already thinking about this yesterday and find your question a good exuce to put my thoughts down at this time.


Simply put, we either believe God is faithful and trustworthy or he is not. If he is, when you give your life over to him, it is preserved. He will not let you go and slip away from him. But, what God does in salvation is to restore the broken relationship that we have with him. He takes away our sin and casts them away, but he never casts us away.

But, can we pursue sin? Most certainly. We can, and sometimes we do pursue sin. What then?

I want to suggest that it depends on where your heart and your vision is. Those who have grown in Christ, who have become more sanctified, more Christ-like, are going to find that they sin less and less as they mature in him. By using this phrase "more Christ-like" it implies a sort of continum in which there would also be people who would be "less Christ-like." But, our salvation is not based on our merit, rather it is through the work of Christ. His grace is sufficient no matter how Christ-like or unChrist-like we are. Those who have place their hope in Christ keep him as the focus of our life, even if we should stumble and sin in the process. Our walk is a faith walk, trusting in Christ for our salvation while we seek to conform to his image as much as is possible, all the while knowing that the Spirit is working in us to accomplish that transforming process as well.

So, whether we become entirely sanctified or not, we still keep our focus our goal on Christ. And he remains the source of our salvation, however good or poor one is at bearing the image of Christ in the world. Such a person has nothing to worry about, they are secure in the work of Christ.

But, what if someone simply didn't want to be like Christ? What if they decided that they wanted to reach God based on their own power? What if they weren't interested in living in a relationship with God at all? Is that choice available to them? And the answer is that of course it is. God never takes a person's free will away from us.

Notice in John 17 how Jesus speaks of how the Father gave all of his disciple to him. ALL of them. Not all except Judas, but all of them. And yet, he lost Judas. Why? Not because of some failing on Jesus' part, but because Judas made a different choice with his life. And God allows us to make those choices.

Now, some people erroneously believe that once one gives their life over to God, that we lose our free will to turn away from God. That simply isn't true. But, rather than argue philosophy, let me let the scriptures speak to that issue:

Hebrews 6:4-6

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Here we have a passage that identifies there being a group of people who were not only "enlightened," but had actually "tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit."

Now, throughout Hebrews the gift that comes from God is the gift of salvation, so I would suggest to you that this means these people were saved. Yet, the text goes on to say that they have "fallen away." Indeed, so complete is this that they cannot repent again. So, right in the scriptures we have an example of people who were once saved (at least according to the author of Hebrews they were saved), but don't remained saved (again if we are to believe Hebrews). Those who teach "Once Saved Always Saved" would be more aligned with scriptures if they were to teach "Once Saved, No Playing YOYO with your Salvation."

But, even here this story is not told to fill us with fear. For, "even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation. God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them" (Hebrews 6:9-10). Just "continue" to keep your focus where it belongs, not on your ability, but God's ability. He is the one who saves you. Even if you are not good at the Christian walk, "imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised"(Hebrews 6:12) and you can be certain that God will keep you secure. You would have to choose to actively turn your back on God, only then would salvation be at risk.
 
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GraceSeeker

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Having now gone back and read the discussion I note this conversation:
In the other thread, comments were made that salvation was a work in progress. One of the key points I previously heard for OSAS, was the assurance of salvation; Once you were saved, you could never lose it.

How do you explain this assurance to someone in the Methodist world? If you are continually working toward this goal, you can never obtain it in this life?

If you really want to know how that works, here it is:

Perhaps Baptists should NOT be trying to answer questions on behalf of the "Methodist world"? You haven't a clue.
 
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RomansFiveEight

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Perhaps Baptists should NOT be trying to answer questions on behalf of the "Methodist world"? You haven't a clue.

Reminds me of a time when a Roman Catholic (not picking on Catholics; that just happens to be who they were) was very misinformed when it comes to Methodism. They were taught about Methodism in Confirmation; but it was very, er... wrong. Including that we view sacraments as symbols, hire our own Pastors, no longer have Bishops, etc. I asked if they were sure that wasn't the section on Baptists and they said no, for sure, it was Methodists; she remembered because she went to a Methodist church during confirmation while that was being taught to look around the sanctuary and note the differences and similarities. When I explained that we are connectional, have Bishops (but there is a difference in how their ordination is viewed), and definitely have a theology of sacraments, (this person knows I'm a UM Pastor). She said, very matter of factly, "No, that can't be true. My Priest said so." God bless her! And hey, I guess I can't fault her for having a lot of trust in those who lead her church.
 
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circuitrider

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Note: I have read the OP, but not the above discussion. I find I agree with 98% of what circuitrider and RomansFiveEight say and that we just tend to use different illustrations to make basically the same points. So my apologies if I end up repeating their thoughts, but I was already thinking about this yesterday and find your question a good exuce to put my thoughts down at this time.

GraceSeeker you say it so well that I'm glad you posted this! While we usually agree, I love the way you explain things. Often I find myself thinking, "I wish I would have said it that way."
 
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RomansFiveEight

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GraceSeeker you say it so well that I'm glad you posted this! While we usually agree, I love the way you explain things. Often I find myself thinking, "I wish I would have said it that way."

"Here here"

In my short time here I've been genuinely edified by the two of you. From the fruitful and very important friendship I've kindled with you, and from the fantastic way GraceSeeker has bee able to articulate concepts and theologies that I sometimes struggle to find words for. I have to admit seeing a great question and thinking "Oh boy, I can't way to see what GraceSeeker or Circuitrider will have to say here"

I have to admit, I'd like to know what the 2% he disagrees with us on is and what his perspective on those issues is. I feel like I might learn something! LOL
 
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food4thought

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I enjoyed reading this thread, because I'm kind of in the same boat as Mysty on this one-coming from a OSAS background and trying to come to grips with some important passages of Scripture (one of which GraceSeeker quoted) that appear to contradict it.

Thanks for the excellent question, Mysty! And thank you to those who responded with the Methodist view.
 
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circuitrider

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I enjoyed reading this thread, because I'm kind of in the same boat as Mysty on this one-coming from a OSAS background and trying to come to grips with some important passages of Scripture (one of which GraceSeeker quoted) that appear to contradict it.

Thanks for the excellent question, Mysty! And thank you to those who responded with the Methodist view.

I also found Graceseeker's response very helpful. People who believe in OSAS really ignore Hebrews because it so clearly points to the possibility of apostasy.

If you believe in OSAS there are only too possibilities for how it works. Either God has predestined your actions so that after you are "saved" you have to follow him no matter what or God is going to save you even if after you confess faith in him you live like the Devil for the rest of your life.

In the predestination case it takes all responsibility for your sin away from you since you had no choice. In the second case it makes it as if by agreeing to salvation you have now tied God's hands and he has to save you even if you don't love or serve him.

Also, just for further information, not all Baptists believe in OSAS. The American Baptist Churches, USA which I served in for a number of years before becoming a Methodist does not support OSAS.
 
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skypair

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In the predestination case it takes all responsibility for your sin away from you since you had no choice.
Yes, sadly this is the problem with predestination (which I do not subscribe to) as understood by unbelievers bound to that doctrine.

In the second case it makes it as if by agreeing to salvation you have now tied God's hands and he has to save you even if you don't love or serve him.
That is sorta what a covenant does, isn't it? Now I've signed contracts where one of the parties either didn't sign (predestination) or had no intention of fulfilling their part of the contract (trusting God with their lives). Obviously, in these cases, there is no covenant to begin with, is there?

But the really cool thing about the new covenant is that God gives us the very thing we need to fulfill our part — He gives us His actual Spirit that fulfills what God expects of us!

The American Baptist Churches, USA which I served in for a number of years before becoming a Baptist does not support OSAS.
Could you reword this? I don't understand.

skypair
 
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skypair

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Whenever someone says that, they are really saying "follow ME. I know Christ better than you."
I didn't say follow me. I said follow Christ. If we can get that right first, then we can all look to Christ and see how that compares with what men say — even what I say, right?

Have you read 1Cor 1 lately? The Corinthians were actually following whoever baptized them. It is no coincidence that even today we are baptizing folks into our respective churches and expecting them to follow the church. Whatever that church says about Christ, we are expected to follow in order to be a member of that church, right?

And what we see in churches is the "telephone game" of passing Christ down through thousands of church leaders expecting to get the same message today that we should have gotten from scripture without all the all the confusion of the message. Just go to the Bible .. see what it says about Christ and salvation .. live that in the best place you can. I mean, we really don't need to get personal about this at all, do we?

skypair
 
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circuitrider

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Why not just know the elects are elects in the bible and leave it to that.

That way, we won't go into meism and let it be all about God.

"Election" is not a Wesleyan doctrine tulipbee. We aren't Calvinist. We believe that predestination besmirches the very character of God because it ultimately makes God responsible for evil.
 
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RomansFiveEight

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I didn't say follow me. I said follow Christ. If we can get that right first, then we can all look to Christ and see how that compares with what men say — even what I say, right?

Have you read 1Cor 1 lately? The Corinthians were actually following whoever baptized them. It is no coincidence that even today we are baptizing folks into our respective churches and expecting them to follow the church. Whatever that church says about Christ, we are expected to follow in order to be a member of that church, right?

And what we see in churches is the "telephone game" of passing Christ down through thousands of church leaders expecting to get the same message today that we should have gotten from scripture without all the all the confusion of the message. Just go to the Bible .. see what it says about Christ and salvation .. live that in the best place you can. I mean, we really don't need to get personal about this at all, do we?

skypair

What you're actually saying is "follow Christ as I understand him". Because you're assuming that we aren't by not doing as you do. Same with the assumption that there's a single clear "biblical" way to do things and anyone who does it different is "unbiblical". You're saying it's the Bible you're following, but ultimately it's just your interpretation of the Bible.

The same things you're saying here essentially apply in the inverse to you as well. You demand people follow Christ the way you do and read the Bible the way you do. Anything else is simply less.
 
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