Ask a Christian philosopher a question

[oi_antz]

The truth about the truth comes from the truth. Catchy, but circular.

That does not necessarily make it less true though.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

I am not sure whether you are suggesting that since "Adam" can be translated as a description rather than given name, that this means he is not regarded as a single human being. I think there can be no way to read the scriptures as though Adam is not a single human being, except when the scriptures are read in a metaphorical way. If the scriptures are metaphorical, the question is raised - why make genealogies appear so literal?

Is there anyone who believes these genealogies?

So you are suggesting that since these are listed as geneaologies they should be read literally? I think the narratives surrounding them is so significantly mythical that I don't think I'd bother thinking of them as historical. That s just me, and most biblical scholars, though.

 

[oi_antz]

So you are suggesting that since these are listed as geneaologies they should be read literally? I think the narratives surrounding them is so significantly mythical that I don't think I'd bother thinking of them as historical. That s just me, and most biblical scholars, though.

I do not understand how one csan read specific people,s names, the sons and daughters they had, the number of years they lived, as though it is not intended to be read as a historical record of real people. Are you able to explain how it is possible to see that the writer intended it to not be read this way?

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

I do not understand how one csan read specific people,s names, the sons and daughters they had, the number of years they lived, as though it is not intended to be read as a historical record of real people. Are you able to explain how it is possible to see that the writer intended it to not be read this way?

Yeah, my inclination is that when texts tend to incorporate fantastic elements and concern themselves with deities and angels they are mythical. We have many myths, very detailed myths which describe fictional personalities comprehensively. The biblical corpus is one among many in that regard.

 

[oi_antz]

Yeah, my inclination is that when texts tend to incorporate fantastic elements and concern themselves with deities and angels they are mythical.

Is it possible to have faith in God while believing this way? If so, please explain how (probably I should rightly assume that you are one who would explain when appropriate!).

We have many myths, very detailed myths which describe fictional personalities comprehensively. The biblical corpus is one among many in that regard.

Are you able to produce some examples for comparison? I really am not able to see these scriptures as having been devised by someone as myth, since it seems so solemn, possible and understandable.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

Is it possible to have faith in God while believing this way? If so, please explain how (probably I should rightly assume that you are one who would explain when appropriate!).

I don't know... I guess I do. I don't think of academia as antithetical to religion.

Are you able to produce some examples for comparison? I really am not able to see these scriptures as having been devised by someone as myth, since it seems so solemn, possible and understandable.

Have a look yourself.

 

[oi_antz]

I don't know... I guess I do. I don't think of academia as antithetical to religion.


Have a look yourself.

Thanks. I really must sleep now, so I'll come back to this before responding to it. One more question for me to consider too, what would you list as reasons for your preference to view Genesis/Pentateuch as myth? Eg, hunch, science, biology, archaeology, popular opinion, logic etc. Even if you have just a few main reasons, I'd like to understand what motivates you to remain convinced.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

Thanks. I really must sleep now, so I'll come back to this before responding to it. One more question for me to consider too, what would you list as reasons for your preference to view Genesis/Pentateuch as myth? Eg, hunch, science, biology, archaeology, popular opinion, logic etc. Even if you have just a few main reasons, I'd like to understand what motivates you to remain convinced.

I guess it's because while I did my bachelor degree in theology that's how it was taught... But the idea integrates well enough with what is known of biology, anthropology, history, etc.

 

[anonymous person]

Yes. How do you resolve this contradiction?

Earlier I implied the logical impossibility of being wrong about my belief in God but I don't hold that view now. It is logically possible that I am wrong.

 

[Ana the Ist]

OK. I only concern that as discussed with HitchSlap earlier, while waiting for evidence to be sufficient for your satisfaction, some hesitation may has caused an unnecessary deprivation. For an example, if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, yet it takes three weeks to obtain definitive lab samples, it is unnecessary to assume it might not be a duck. Only very rarely would it be necessary to treat with such degree of caution, as though it might not be a duck.

This is an interesting way to put it...the old duck test. Let's take the duck test then shall we??

Suppose I told you a story about a guy named Banjo. He's a guy born of a virgin who was being hunted even before his birth because of a prophecy. His mother was a virgin...but she got magically knocked up by a sky spirit from god. When he was born three of the local chieftains followed a glowing green light to his birthplace in an abandoned asbestos shack in a swamp.

When Banjo gets older, he quits his day job wrastling gators to spread the news that he's the son of god. He's got all kinds of fancy powers like turning water to whisky, healing tuberculosis with just his hands, walking around on swamp water without sinking in, and he can bring his friends back to life by whistling Dixie. He only gathers a few followers...but he tells them he's gonna die for their shenanigans, to wash the world clean of shenanigans, and give everyone a chance to get into heaven...cuz he's the only way to get there.

Then he gets reverse hung (strappado) until he dies of internal bleeding...a very painful death indeed. After he's put into a crypt, he reappears to his friends and gives them the lowdown on the rapture and who's gonna win the Superbowl that year...

What do you think of my story? If I added in names and places of real stuff from an accurate time period...would you think it a story of myth or reality?

You're darn right I believe you're using a double standard...in fact I'm certain of it. There aren't many elements of the story of Jesus that aren't found in many of the mythological stories of his day....yet you don't believe any of those mythological stories to be real.

You believe your mythological story to be real....and the best reason you've given me for it is some notion of being able to tell who's lying or not simply by reading their words.

What about Banjo Oi? He died for your shenanigans.

 

[anonymous person]

This is an interesting way to put it...the old duck test. Let's take the duck test then shall we??

Suppose I told you a story about a guy named Banjo. He's a guy born of a virgin who was being hunted even before his birth because of a prophecy. His mother was a virgin...but she got magically knocked up by a sky spirit from god. When he was born three of the local chieftains followed a glowing green light to his birthplace in an abandoned asbestos shack in a swamp.

When Banjo gets older, he quits his day job wrastling gators to spread the news that he's the son of god. He's got all kinds of fancy powers like turning water to whisky, healing tuberculosis with just his hands, walking around on swamp water without sinking in, and he can bring his friends back to life by whistling Dixie. He only gathers a few followers...but he tells them he's gonna die for their shenanigans, to wash the world clean of shenanigans, and give everyone a chance to get into heaven...cuz he's the only way to get there.

Then he gets reverse hung (strappado) until he dies of internal bleeding...a very painful death indeed. After he's put into a crypt, he reappears to his friends and gives them the lowdown on the rapture and who's gonna win the Superbowl that year...

What do you think of my story? If I added in names and places of real stuff from an accurate time period...would you think it a story of myth or reality?

You're darn right I believe you're using a double standard...in fact I'm certain of it. There aren't many elements of the story of Jesus that aren't found in many of the mythological stories of his day....yet you don't believe any of those mythological stories to be real.

You believe your mythological story to be real....and the best reason you've given me for it is some notion of being able to tell who's lying or not simply by reading their words.

What about Banjo Oi? He died for your shenanigans.

If there were good evidence that your account was true, then I would conclude it was true.

This stuff is not that difficult.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

and the best reason you've given me for it is some notion of being able to tell who's lying or not simply by reading their words.

Is that really fair? Do you really think that those who codified mythology were liars?

 

[Ana the Ist]

If there were good evidence that your account was true, then I would conclude it was true.

This stuff is not that difficult.

What would be "good evidence"?

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

If there were good evidence that your account was true, then I would conclude it was true.

This stuff is not that difficult.

I think you're only saying that because of the similarities of the stories to the bible. If someone came up to you and told you that there was a flying dog which cures chickenpox in Hawaii you'd probably tell them they were having a laugh. Yet there's a story about a talking donkey in the bible you probably think is historical.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Is that really fair? Do you really think that those who codified mythology were liars?

That depends on their intentions doesn't it? If they never intended their myths to be read as literal history but allegory instead...then no they weren't liars.

The liars would be the ones who came later and insisted it all happened as it reads.

 

[Ana the Ist]

What would be "good evidence"?

Because as far as I can tell...you'd be satisfied with two heavily disputed accounts from people who never met Banjo, never revealed their sources, and stand a distinct possibility of being entirely forged.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

That depends on their intentions doesn't it? If they never intended their myths to be read as literal history but allegory instead...then no they weren't liars.

The liars would be the ones who came later and insisted it all happened as it reads.

I think it best to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. We don't know the circumstances of how the scriptures came to be, except that they were likely written by various priests during the Persio-Hellenistic era and the subsequent Greco-Roman era, and there are comparative studies which have been done with them and various other myths.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Earlier I implied the logical impossibility of being wrong about my belief in God but I don't hold that view now. It is logically possible that I am wrong.

So you have changed your mind?

 

[Ana the Ist]

I think it best to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

Why? What is it best for? Determining truth?

Personally, I believe when someone is attempting to convince you of a their beliefs....particularly religious beliefs....It's best to consider their stories with a generous dose of scepticism.

 

[anonymous person]

I think you're only saying that because of the similarities of the stories to the bible. If someone came up to you and told you that there was a flying dog which cures chickenpox in Hawaii you'd probably tell them they were having a laugh. Yet there's a story about a talking donkey in the bible you probably think is historical.

If I have good reasons to believe there existed a flying dog that cures chickenpox in Hawaii then I would believe it existed.

I have good reasons to believe God exists and that He caused a voice to come from a donkey to restrain Balaam from his madness so I believe it.