Arnold Murray's Teaching

[Watchman_2]

It is six hundred, sixty and six. The Greek verifies that. 6,6,6 would be "hex hex hex".

I know that it is six hundred sixty-six literally. I am speaking of the interpretation thereof.

 

[Zadok7000]

I know that it is six hundred sixty-six literally. I am speaking of the interpretation thereof.

It is incorrect to intrepret a single number as 3 different numbers. Agreed?

 

[Watchman_2]

It is incorrect to intrepret a single number as 3 different numbers. Agreed?

One doesn't necessarily take any literal word, including a number, and allow it to drive the context of the interpretation. That is exactly what Postios is attempting to do. That is why I challenge his sincerity. For if one takes 666 literally for the interpretation, the burden of proof is to identify the 665 events prior to Satan's appearance.

Then, there is another hurdle to cross with such literal interpretation. That is the reasonableness for God to ask us to count 665 prior prophetic events, unidentified in scripture, in order to know when Satan appears on the scene.

The last hurdle would be to demonstrate that the three groupings of 7 events [seals, trumpets, and vials] are irrelevant to Rev. 13:18.

So, I don't support your position of allowing the literal number to always drive the interpretation of the scripture. Though the literal word is six hundred sixty-six, the contextual interpretation is 6, 6, 6 as it refers to the seals, trumpets, and vials.

 

[realtruth101]

Arnold Murray, is exactly who the bible talks about when it says what a man builds will be burned up as chaff, and the man escaping through the flames, As the man believes the gospel of Jesus Christ what he has built upon it will go up like it was soaked in gas, never heard such bizarre teachings in all my life....Adam and Eve had sex with satan?....really?

 

[Zadok7000]

One doesn't necessarily take any literal word, including a number, and allow it to drive the context of the interpretation. That is exactly what Postios is attempting to do. That is why I challenge his sincerity. For if one takes 666 literally for the interpretation, the burden of proof is to identify the 665 events prior to Satan's appearance.

A. Literal vs symbolic does not mean CHANGING the text itself. That's exactly what someone does when they say 6,6,6. You're talking about the symbolic MEANING of six hundred sixty six vs. the litreal meaning. That's different.

B. Where in the heck are you getting "events prior to satan's appearance"??? I have never heard anyone say that is what it means to "count the number". Backwards thorough history to see the sons of Cain, ok. Ties to 1Kings 10:14, ok (Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents). But it is not a "countdown of events".

 

[Zadok7000]

The last hurdle would be to demonstrate that the three groupings of 7 events [seals, trumpets, and vials] are irrelevant to Rev. 13:18.

The vials are not the same as the seals and trumpets. See Rev. 15. The overcomers are already singing the song of Moses before the wrath of God is poured out. People have already accepted the mark of the beast when the 1st vial is poured out. In fact, the mark is necessary for the vials to be poured. Before you assume anything, I am a post-tribber like you.

 

[Watchman_2]

A. Literal vs symbolic does not mean CHANGING the text itself. That's exactly what someone does when they say 6,6,6. You're talking about the symbolic MEANING of six hundred sixty six vs. the litreal meaning. That's different.

Well, you are completely in error. I didn't change the text whatsoever -- I just properly interpreted it. God certainly has purpose in authoring literal words into the text which are not to be interpreted literally. I would surmise that God does this in order to separate out those who study properly from the rest.

B. Where in the heck are you getting "events prior to satan's appearance"??? I have never heard anyone say that is what it means to "count the number". Backwards thorough history to see the sons of Cain, ok. Ties to 1Kings 10:14, ok (Now the weight of gold that came to Solomon in one year was six hundred threescore and six talents). But it is not a "countdown of events".

As I have written a few times in this topic, the key to understanding Rev. 13:18 is the word rendered as 'count'. The etymology of the word determines that one is to count events in time -- not anything else. Rev. 13:18 is informing us when, in the sequence of events, Satan appears on the scene.

 

[Watchman_2]

The vials are not the same as the seals and trumpets. See Rev. 15. The overcomers are already singing the song of Moses before the wrath of God is poured out. People have already accepted the mark of the beast when the 1st vial is poured out. In fact, the mark is necessary for the vials to be poured.

The ones singing the song of Moses are those that have already died and passed the test of the flesh dispensation of time [made the first resurrection] prior to the endtime. It does not include all overcomers as the final group [those alive at Christ's return] do not join them until Christ's return at the 7th vial.

It would be a paradoxical position for one to claim that Rev. 15 includes all overcomers.

Before you assume anything, I am a post-tribber like you.

It is my understanding that post-tribbers are still rapturists in some form or another. I read once that they believe that they are raptured prior to God's dispensing either all or some of the vials of wrath.

I am not a rapturist at all.

 

[Zadok7000]

Well, you are completely in error.

lol
You love saying that don't you. Do you believe it has an effect? It doesn't.

I didn't change the text whatsoever

Sir that's exactly what you did, changed it from chi-xi-stigma to hex hex hex. It's just not permissible as a Bible student to do that.

As I have written a few times in this topic, the key to understanding Rev. 13:18 is the word rendered as 'count'. The etymology of the word determines that one is to count events in time -- not anything else. Rev. 13:18 is informing us when, in the sequence of events, Satan appears on the scene.

As counting as stones worn through over time,actually. That's tracing his family, not ticking off events. As a poster said once, you are in error.

 

[Zadok7000]

The ones singing the song of Moses are those that have already died and passed the test of the flesh dispensation of time [made the first resurrection] prior to the endtime. It does not include all overcomers as the final group [those alive at Christ's return] do not join them until Christ's return at the 7th vial.

It would be a paradoxical position for one to claim that Rev. 15 includes all overcomers.

And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

vs

And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

None of that is even possible until Satan is here as False Christ.

It is my understanding that post-tribbers are still rapturists in some form or another. I read once that they believe that they are raptured prior to God's dispensing either all or some of the vials of wrath. I am not a rapturist at all.

You don't have a correct understanding of post-tribbers then. You can't get any later than "post". We believe we are gathered to Christ when He returns - at the Last Trumpet.

 

[POSTIOS]

You are the one that said that PM was wrong and that it was 666 instead of 6,6,6.

actually I never said that I do not believe his interp. I said that i wanted proof.

but ya, it's 666 not 6,6,6.

So, ever since, I am waiting for you to prove your sincerity by listing the 665 events that I should count prior to Satan's appearance or acknowledging your gross error.

again, for the umpteenth time, that is your claim, not mine.
I do not limit the possibilities of what 666 means to just those two choices as you do.

and it is an easy thing to admit when you are wrong, as your post 109 proves.

 

[Watchman_2]

lol
You love saying that don't you. Do you believe it has an effect? It doesn't.

Well, I simply stated the truth. If it has no effect, it is your problem.

Sir that's exactly what you did, changed it from chi-xi-stigma to hex hex hex. It's just not permissible as a Bible student to do that.

See Post No. 183. I have acknowledged that the word is literally six hundred sixty-six. However, it is not properly interpreted literally in context.

As counting as stones worn through over time,actually. That's tracing his family, not ticking off events. As a poster said once, you are in error.

LOL...that is one of the dumbest theories that I have heard.

You have a huge problem with that theory. That is context. Counting Satan's family is of no relevance to the context of Rev. 13. Most people cannot count their own family more than a few generations back. It is unreasonable for God to ask people to count Satan's family throughout the generations, when only a few are identified in scripture.

That which one is counting needs to be identified in scripture. Otherwise, God would be remiss in His instruction. So, you should be able to see your gross error with that theory.

 

[Watchman_2]

And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

vs

And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

None of that is even possible until Satan is here as False Christ.

So, according to your warped thinking, no one that has died is saved since it is not possible for salvation until Satan is here as the fake christ.

You don't have a correct understanding of post-tribbers then. You can't get any later than "post". We believe we are gathered to Christ when He returns - at the Last Trumpet.

Fair enough.

 

[Watchman_2]

actually I never said that I do not believe his interp. I said that i wanted proof.

See Post No. 183. It is not reasonable for God to ask people to count 665 unidentified events in time. Though the text is 666, the context informs the true student that it is not to be interpreted literally. God is using it to separate the true student from the fake ones.

See Zadok7000's position. Because he takes 666 literally, he has to concoct some warped theory as to what is to be counted. However, as can plainly be seen, his theory is nonsensical, unreasonable, and can never fit the context of Rev. 13, which is the arrival of the beast [Satan].

 

[Douggg]

how do you know WHEN the beast is in the bottomless pit.... why do you say the beast is there in John's day?

I know because in the description of the 7 kings, 5 were already fallen, and the sixth was ruling at the time of John. The "one is" puts king six at the time of John.

17:10And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

So everything in Chapter 17 is either at the time of John; before the time of John; or future of the time of John. Concerning the beast in the bottomless pit, the description given is he "was and is not", simply meaning he was alive at one time but at the time of John is no longer living and is in the bottomless pit.

8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

personally, i reject the notion that the beast is going to be some human person from the past.

The beast in the bottomless is certainly going to be some-one who had been dead at the time of John, 1st century. Whether the beast is purely human is questionable. The beast may have been a Nephilim. When the Nephilim die, they become the disembodied spirits which were the demons.

The beast from the bottomless pit doesn't ascend out of the pit until the middle part of the 7 years.

The most likely candidate is Satan himself.
he's an angel, as real as all angels in the bible.
his is cast down here, and his fate is detailed in at least the following:

Satan is eliminated because (1) he has never died (2) he is not in the bottomless pit.

5 roles of Satan as king have fallen by John's day, and still today....
the 6th, currently is (prince of the air/this world).

Arthur Murray believes in modalism, not the trinity, which it appears as though you may be applying that same concept to Satan? Regardless, the six "was and is not" in Revelation 17:8 leaves no room for saying that phrase means currently "is" because John is not living in our times.

Further more in Revelation 17:10, the past, present, and future kings nails down the term "is" to the time of John, because 5 are past and 1 is future.

17:10And there are seven kings: five are fallen [in the past of John's day] and one is [present at the time of John] , and the other is not yet come [future of the time of John]; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

 

[Douggg]

 

[Douggg]

I answered this the first time you asked it. The store clerk does not have to detect physical evidence. The mark of the beast is not physical at all. If one is able to purchase anything at Walmart, it will be with the one-world currency, which everyone has except for God's elect.

The clerk doesn't have to read anyone's mind or detect anything. If one pays for anything, it will be with the Devil's currency. God's elect won't be able to buy or sell because they do not have any legal money to pay for anything [unless they trade for it].

The idea of "Devil's currency" is a theory , and opinion. The bible doesn't say that there will be one global currency. It is theory.

The requirement to have the mark, number of his name, or his name in the bible, Revelation 13, is not tied to the currently type.

Right now, as we speak, for example, you cannot go down to Sam's Club and spend your American dollars - without showing a membership card. It will be similar under the beast's economic system. The type of money doesn't matter. A person must be a member of the beast's economic system. Instead of a membership card being required to make purchases, individuals will have to have the mark, the beast's name, or the number of the beast.

You are wrong -- see above and all the other times that I answered the same questions.

You have been so confusing and evasive, I went to You Tube and listened through a long series of videos by Arnold Murray himself explaining his theory of the three ages. I think the carm man summed up Arnold Murray very accurately.

YouTube - What does the Shepherd's Chapel Teach?

 

[Watchman_2]

The idea of "Devil's currency" is a theory , and opinion. The bible doesn't say that there will be one global currency. It is theory.

It is not theory. You just wish to label it as such in order to support your unbiblical belief that the mark of the beast is a literal/physical mark.

The requirement to have the mark, number of his name, or his name in the bible, Revelation 13, is not tied to the currently type.

Folks have the mark of the beast prior to the first vial of God's wrath. See Rev. 16:1-2. Satan's one world order does not come into existence until vials 5 and 6. So, it is impossible for the mark to be literal/physical.

Right now, as we speak, for example, you cannot go down to Sam's Club and spend your American dollars - without showing a membership card. It will be similar under the beast's economic system. The type of money doesn't matter. A person must be a member of the beast's economic system. Instead of a membership card being required to make purchases, individuals will have to have the mark, the beast's name, or the number of the beast.

A person will not have any of the one-world [Devil's] currency unless one swears allegiance onto the beast. A person that does not swear allegiance cannot buy or sell simply because he/she will not have any money.

You have been so confusing and evasive,

No -- I have not. It is just that you lack education in Bible. Your own Bible illiteracy is that which is confusing you.

 

[Manasseh_]

A person will not have any of the one-world [Devil's] currency unless one swears allegiance onto the beast. A person that does not swear allegiance cannot buy or sell simply because he/she will not have any money.

one swears allegiance to the beast by breaking God's commandments...........

specifically breaking the 1st, 2nd and fourth commandment, it has nothing to do with a tatoo, chip implant or using a certain form of money (currency).

Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

those that swear allegiance (worship the beast) break the first 2 commandments.....................Idol worship

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

and they break the 4th commandment by working on sabbath to get money , whatever form of currency it may be......

decrees were made in the past ........the beginning of changing the sabbath from the 7th day to the first day.........finally over time more and more decrees were made until it was acutally made "law" not to keep the sabbath..........then finally it became "traditions of men" rather than God's commandments which they made of none effect through their tradition

A Decree from the Council at Laodicea circa 364 AD

"Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day; but the Lord's day they shall especially honour, and, as being Christians, shall, if possible, do no work on that day. If, however, they are found Judaizing, they shall be shut out from Christ."

notice how they worded it...........shall not "judaize" by keeping sabbath........God's word specifically states the sabbath was made for man, there were no jews (tribe of Judah) when sabbath was made by God

they also made "their sabbath" a day were you can choose to either work or rest "if possible do no work on that day" (Sunday) of which they called Sunday (Day of the sun or veneration to the sun) the "Lord's Day"

these same kind of Decrees will be made in the final end days..................

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

So in the final end days they will either be fearful for their lives , breaking God's commandments.......specifically the 1st, 2nd and 4th..........and will work on sabbath day when decrees are made by the beast and false prophet in order to hold a job so they can buy and sell.....................

And in addition there will be those who fear God and keep his commandments and keep the testimony of Jesus , they will refuse to worship the beast or breaking God's commandments ,then the beast during it's 42 months of power will "wear out" (kill, martyr) the saints who refuse it's "laws" because they "loved not their lives" (temporary existence) enough to break God's commandments because they truly fear the God of heaven and because they have the testimony of Jesus, they are kept by God and given that same spirit of power (2Ti 1:7) to resist the devil's temptations to break God's commandments..............

it won't be any form of technology (implants) and it won't be whatever form of currency one receives for wages.............it will be the breaking of God's commandments (SIN) and the wages of sin is death.

 

[Watchman_2]

one swears allegiance to the beast by breaking God's commandments...........

If that were true, then the Bible would state so.