Arnold Murray's Teaching

[Douggg]

I already educated you on this. The Antichrist and false prophet are roles that Satan plays in this flesh dispensation of time. Satan will not be accorded these roles at the end of the Lord's day when he is released to deceive the nations again.

The false prophet does miracles in the presence of the Antichrist. How can Satan be two persons at once?

14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he [the false prophet] had power to do in the sight of the beast [the Antichrist]; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

 

[POSTIOS]

Doug...consider...

14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast ; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

the blue is the individual beast (2nd in chapter 13) who rises out of the earth...that is easy to see.
he is called many names in scripture, including false prophet/antiChrist/false Christ/son of perdition

the green is the first beast that we read of at the beginning of the 13th chapter. the political multiheaded dragon...NWO.


they are obviously not the same.

 

[Watchman_2]

Revelation 16:1?

Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels "Go, pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth".

How does that prove the mark is not physical? Did you mistype the chapter or verse number?

My bad -- should have included verse 2. Thank you for pointing out my oversight.

 

[Watchman_2]

You wrote that the first age ended with a flood.... but the beginning of the second age was the advent of Christ. I have highlighted what you wrote in blue.

See Post No. 105.

If the flood ended the first age and the advent of Christ started the second age, you have a gap between the first age and the second age of thousands of years. I can't even get from you what you are calling the second age, and why.

See Post No. 105. The second age commenced at the last phrase of Gen. 1:2 -

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
​

You seem to be saying that there was a prior earth to the Adam and Eve earth. That prior earth, which according to your position, got destroyed by a flood before the Adam and Eve earth, that you are calling "the first age"?

It isn't me saying it -- it is the Word of God. See 2 Pet. 3. See also Post No. 105.

I am not getting straight answers from you. Don't reply with instructions for me to go read a passage in the bible thinking that is sufficient. Explane your first age and second age in plain simple English without all the playing around.

See Post No. 105.

I, like everyone else here, am growing weary with your condescending remarks - one more and I am going to do some heavy duty complaining to the moderators.

Well, if you had a Bible education, you would not be growing weary. You spent 38 years studying and you did not even know about the first age.

What marks the beginning of this second age in Rev. 12?? It is v. 5 -Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Rev. 12:1-4 all takes place in the first age. Rev. 12:5 takes place in this age, but is past. Rev. 12:6-17 is yet to take place in this age.

 

[POSTIOS]

Revelation 16:1?

Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels "Go, pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth".

How does that prove the mark is not physical? Did you mistype the chapter or verse number?

It doesn't.
The mark is NOT physical, however watchman2 is in error again, this time about what proves the mark is not physical.

Rev16:1-2 proves nothing of the sort. he uses that prove word alot, but obviously it does not prove it.


1And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.


wrath falls on those that have the mark...
now, Ex13, Deut6, and Deut11 proves the mark is not physical. but certainly not Rev16:1-2.

 

[Watchman_2]

I am not asking you what the "right hand" is symbolic of. The store clerk isn't going to have a debate over bible symbolism with the customer. The store clerk has to detect physical evidence on the person, before the clerk is going to sell the merchandise.

I answered this the first time you asked it. The store clerk does not have to detect physical evidence. The mark of the beast is not physical at all. If one is able to purchase anything at Walmart, it will be with the one-world currency, which everyone has except for God's elect.

I am asking you the same question because the clerk in the store is not going to be able to read someone's mind. When a person walks into Walmart, to the store clerk they are a complete stranger. The clerk doesn't know what the person's position is on the rapture. The clerk cannot read their mind. A detectable mark has to be presented in order to buy the merchandise.

The clerk doesn't have to read anyone's mind or detect anything. If one pays for anything, it will be with the Devil's currency. God's elect won't be able to buy or sell because they do not have any legal money to pay for anything [unless they trade for it].

A person cannot buy or sell without the mark in the right hand. The store clerk has to be able to detect a mark by sight or by some electronic device.

You are wrong -- see above and all the other times that I answered the same questions.

 

[Watchman_2]

The false prophet does miracles in the presence of the Antichrist. How can Satan be two persons at once?

14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he [the false prophet] had power to do in the sight of the beast [the Antichrist]; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

It would not be the first time. See Gen. 3. Satan is both the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the serpent.

BTW, I do not agree with your bracketed interpretations.

 

[Watchman_2]

prove it...

I already did -- I am still waiting for your listing of 665 events for me to count prior to Satan's appearance.

 

[Douggg]

Doug,
the mark is symbolic, as seen in Ex13, Deut6 and Deut11. (mark between the eyes and in the right hand.
it was not a physical mark then.

and the mark was based off of remembering where we came from and who got us there. God.
itis based off of who you worship, keeping the first commandment.

the mark of the beast is the same...who worships him,
who breaks the first commandment and worships him.



if there is a world currency, then simply, any Sealed Christian elect will not use it, regardless.
there will be NO other form of currency.
so if someone does use it, then theyare not the sealed elect.

If that is someone's theory, fine. As long as it is presented as a theory. But it should not be taught as something found in the bible. The bible doesn't say anything about a uniform currency. It doesn't say anything about a cashless society. Cashless societies, uniform currency, microchips - those are all unprovable theories.

And even so, none of those negate that in order to buy or sell a person will have to have the mark in their right hand or forehead, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

no tattoo or chip required.
either one uses the money or one does not.

Okay let's say there is a NWO uniform currency. The bible still says a person will have to have the mark in their right hand or forehead, or the name of the beast, or number of his name.

one uses the NWO currency, then one has the mark.

The store clerk won't care if it is NWO currency or not. The clerk is going to want to see the mark in their right hand or forehead, or name of the beast, or the number of his name. The mark, name of the beast, or number of his name will be used for quick identification. If you don't have the mark, the police could arrest you and put you in jail, because without the mark it means that you refuse to worship the beast. The law will be worship the beast or die.

 

[Douggg]

See Post No. 105.
Well, if you had a Bible education, you would not be growing weary. You spent 38 years studying and you did not even know about the first age.

No, I am growing weary of your continual condescending remarks. I just watched a video that you should watch.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-nJG6V-DLE&feature=related

I don't know what your or Arnold Murray's escatological thinking is. I just meet you in this thread.

You are using terms not in biblical text. Yet, you act as if the text self- evidently supports your claims. Do a copy and paste of the exact verse(s), all of them, containing the words "first age". Prove your claims.

Rev. 12:1-4 all takes place in the first age. Rev. 12:5 takes place in this age, but is past. Rev. 12:6-17 is yet to take place in this age.

You have written that "the first age" ended with a pre-Adam and Eve flood. Revelation 12:1, identifying the woman as Israel, is thousands of years after Adam and Eve, and consequently thousands of years after Genesis 1:1-2 of your "first age" theory.

In 12:1, the woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars... connects with the visualization that Joseph had in Genesis 37:9And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

The sun is Jacob, the moon is Rachael (his wife), the eleven stars are Joseph's brothers. The woman is Israel. The vision that Joseph had was thousands of years after Adam and Eve. And certainly past the the first couple of verses in Genesis. So you have absolutely no basis for Revelation 12:1 to be some pre-Adam and Eve "first age".

 

[Douggg]

It would not be the first time. See Gen. 3. Satan is both the tree of knowledge of good and evil and the serpent.

BTW, I do not agree with your bracketed interpretations.

Satan possessed the serpent. The serpent was cursed to crawl on the ground. Genesis 3:14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Satan is not the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Where did you get an idea like that?

 

[Douggg]

Doug...consider...

14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast ; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

the blue is the individual beast (2nd in chapter 13) who rises out of the earth...that is easy to see.
he is called many names in scripture, including false prophet/antiChrist/false Christ/son of perdition

the green is the first beast that we read of at the beginning of the 13th chapter. the political multiheaded dragon...NWO.


they are obviously not the same.

The first beast in Revelation 13 has a composite body made up of a bear, lion, and leopard....so I would not call that a dragon. The beast in Revelation 12, 13, and 17 represents the 8th king.

That the beast is pictured in Revelation 12 as a dragon, the dragon identified as Satan; and as scarlet colored in Revelation 17, indicates that the beast in the bottomless pit who when he ascends out to become the 8th king gets his power from Satan.

Since the beast in Revelation 17 is scarlet colored, and the beast was in the bottomless pit already during the time of John, 1st century - to me, that indicates that the person of ancient times had close connection with Satan, perhaps Satan's offspring.

I know there are some theories that Satan and Eve had sex and Cain was the result. I have listened to Dr. Joye Pugh (you Tube) on that theory.

I don't think that is the case with the beast in the bottomless pit because there is the Assyrian and Babylon the great factor. Nimrod, to me, is the most likely candidate. In Genesis 10, it say Nimrod 10:8And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one [Giborim] in the earth.

One definition of Giborim is giant, like the Neplihim. Since it says Cush begat Nimrod, the Neplihim blood would have to occurred on his mother's side. It is a theory.

10:9He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.

Another thing about Nimrod, I am wondering if being a mighty hunter before the LORD, meant that he hunted men.... and ate them. Cannibalism had to start somewhere.

 

[POSTIOS]

The first beast in Revelation 13 has a composite body made up of a bear, lion, and leopard....so I would not call that a dragon.

the first beast is a multiheaded political union...not an individual.

The beast in Revelation 12, 13, and 17 represents the 8th king.

Rev12, no beast mentioned by name, but the dragon.
Rev13, 2 beasts; one political union, one individual.

That the beast is pictured in Revelation 12 as a dragon, the dragon identified as Satan;

is Satan and his kingdom (political union)

and as scarlet colored in Revelation 17, indicates that the beast in the bottomless pit who when he ascends out to become the 8th king gets his power from Satan.

not my interpretation.

Since the beast in Revelation 17 is scarlet colored, and the beast was in the bottomless pit already during the time of John, 1st century - to me, that indicates that the person of ancient times had close connection with Satan, perhaps Satan's offspring.

how do you know WHEN the beast is in the bottomless pit....
why do you say the beast is there in John's day?

I know there are some theories that Satan and Eve had sex and Cain was the result. I have listened to Dr. Joye Pugh (you Tube) on that theory.

I don't think that is the case with the beast in the bottomless pit because there is the Assyrian and Babylon the great factor. Nimrod, to me, is the most likely candidate. In Genesis 10, it say Nimrod 10:8And Cush begat Nimrod: he began to be a mighty one [Giborim] in the earth.

One definition of Giborim is giant, like the Neplihim. Since it says Cush begat Nimrod, the Neplihim blood would have to occurred on his mother's side. It is a theory.

10:9He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.

Another thing about Nimrod, I am wondering if being a mighty hunter before the LORD, meant that he hunted men.... and ate them. Cannibalism had to start somewhere.

personally, i reject the notion that the beast is going to be some human person from the past.

The most likely candidate is Satan himself.
he's an angel, as real as all angels in the bible.
his is cast down here, and his fate is detailed in at least the following:

Isa14:4-24
Eze28:11:19
Rev12:7-17
Rev17:7-11
Rev20:7-10

5 roles of Satan as king have fallen by John's day, and still today....
the 6th, currently is (prince of the air/this world).
the 7th, soon to be for a short time is Rev12:7-17, which is also shown in Rev13:11-18, and IMO Rev9:1-11.
Rev20-7-10 is his role as 8th king, at Millennium's end.

 

[POSTIOS]

I already did --

no, you did not. you gave an opinion.
Had you proved it, i wouldn't ask you to prove it.

I am still waiting for your listing of 665 events for me to count prior to Satan's appearance.

I dont have to because i never brought that up...YOU did.
that is another one of YOUR assumptions...
YOU seem to limit the choices to only two possibilities....that is YOUR limitation, not mine.

as I said, i'd rather look to the OT mentionings of 666 for the answer, since the majority of Rev symbology is found in the OT.

I'm still waiting for your acknowledgement of your error/lie/mistype,
when you claimed not to teach Satan here in the 5th vial.
As revealed in post 109, you said Satan is here in the 5th and 6th vials.

among other things...

 

[POSTIOS]

If that is someone's theory, fine. As long as it is presented as a theory. But it should not be taught as something found in the bible. The bible doesn't say anything about a uniform currency. It doesn't say anything about a cashless society. Cashless societies, uniform currency, microchips - those are all unprovable theories.

And even so, none of those negate that in order to buy or sell a person will have to have the mark in their right hand or forehead, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

So, i believe that there will be a world currency...no more USA dollars accepted, even in the USA.

I agree that the mark is not the currency itself.
But if one uses the currency, it shows that they are under Satan's kingdom, thus marked.
IOW, the elect will not be doing ANY commerse then.

Okay let's say there is a NWO uniform currency. The bible still says a person will have to have the mark in their right hand or forehead, or the name of the beast, or number of his name.

yep...still doesn't have to be physical tho.

The store clerk won't care if it is NWO currency or not.

sure he/she will, because it will be the ONLY currency accepted all around the world.

The clerk is going to want to see the mark in their right hand or forehead, or name of the beast, or the number of his name.

the clerk will be marked in the same way as the customer...
invisible to the eye...
they both wont even know they are marked....
they both will not know it is the trib....
they both will be completely deceived into accepting Satan and his kingdom....


again, see Ex13, Deut6, and Deut11.
Those chapters explain what is behind the symbology of the mark better than I can.

it is not physical.

The mark, name of the beast, or number of his name will be used for quick identification.

nope...but the elect not using the currency, will be used for identification, at the end.

If you don't have the mark, the police could arrest you and put you in jail, because without the mark it means that you refuse to worship the beast. The law will be worship the beast or die.

a threat....should be killed.

IMO it is Satan here himself, pretending to be Jesus.
I think this threat is akin to; ...Worship Jesus or your not in the book of life...

I think that is the threat... the angelic supernatural angel satan, here, claiming to be Jesus....
but the elect dont buy the lie as most of the other Saints will.
the elect know who he really is...

however those elect will be arrested by police in the end,
because they do not use the currency, or worship the unacceptible sacrificial lamb.
The elect's family even turns them in, ie, a mother turning in her son...because she fears for her son's very soul, (save him Jesus!)
because she and the world think Satan is Jesus,
and the elect are openly against him.




the elect will testify (in tongues) against Satan/death during the last 10 days before Christ arrives, IMO.

And then the end will come.

 

[POSTIOS]

Doug, that guy on the video is wrong on most of his criticisms.
he knows so little of what he preaches against, that its both commical and sad to folks that know Mr Murray's teachings.

 

[Watchman_2]

No, I am growing weary of your continual condescending remarks.

My prior comment stands. If you understood Bible, you would not be growing weary. I am spending all of this time straightening you out on Bible basics, which you clearly are not up to speed on.

You are using terms not in biblical text. Yet, you act as if the text self- evidently supports your claims. Do a copy and paste of the exact verse(s), all of them, containing the words "first age". Prove your claims.

See 2 Pet. 3. The word 'world' is used. Do you really think that the planet earth perished or all that lived on it?? Of course, the answer is that the life on the planet perished -- not the planet itself. So, sometimes, a little common sense prevails.

And, if you simply review the manuscripts, you will find that the meaning of the rendering 'world', supports my position -

G2889
κόσμος
kosmos
kos'-mos
Probably from the base of G2865; orderly arrangement, that is, decoration; by implication the world (in a wide or narrow sense, including its inhabitants, literally or figuratively [morally]): - adorning, world.
​

As one can see, it was the life that existed on the planet that perished. I have used the term 'age' to describe it. You can call it whatever you wish.

However, the important point is that you were clueless that there was life on this planet prior to Gen. 1:2. Whether it be described as an 'age', eon of time, prior existence, etc, the fact exists and it is key to understanding Bible, as well as eschatology.

So, instead of complaining of your weariness, you should be thanking me for educating you. After all, you spent 38 years studying and still do not have a clue.

You have written that "the first age" ended with a pre-Adam and Eve flood. Revelation 12:1, identifying the woman as Israel, is thousands of years after Adam and Eve, and consequently thousands of years after Genesis 1:1-2 of your "first age" theory.

I did not write it -- the Bible declares it. See 2 Pet. 3. I simply went through the analysis in Post No. 105 to show you that it was not Noah's flood referred to in 2 Pet. 3.

Who said that Rev. 12:1 identifies the woman as Israel?? I surely didn't.

In 12:1, the woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars... connects with the visualization that Joseph had in Genesis 37:9And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.

The sun is Jacob, the moon is Rachael (his wife), the eleven stars are Joseph's brothers. The woman is Israel. The vision that Joseph had was thousands of years after Adam and Eve. And certainly past the the first couple of verses in Genesis. So you have absolutely no basis for Revelation 12:1 to be some pre-Adam and Eve "first age".

It is very clear that 12:1 is in the first age as 12:4 speaks of Satan's rebellion, which was clearly in the first age. 12:3 speaks of Satan's one-world order in the first age, which is described in Eze. 28.

So, according to you, God would be discussing this second age in 12:1-2, bounce back to the first age in 12:3-4, and then go back to this second age in 12:5. Of course, this does not make sense.

So, the better conclusion to reach is that you messed up your interpretation of the 'woman' in 12:1. Such conclusion is reasonable since you have messed up most every other interpretation as well.

 

[Watchman_2]

Satan possessed the serpent. The serpent was cursed to crawl on the ground. Genesis 3:14And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

Obvisously, in your 38 years of study, you did not read Gen. 3:15 -

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
​

A snake cannot make a woman pregnant.

Have you never read Rev. 20:2??

Satan is not the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Where did you get an idea like that?

Who is the tree of life?? Of course, it is Jesus Christ. So, naturally, Christ's antithesis would be Satan.

I can see that you are remiss in another Bible basic.

 

[Watchman_2]

I dont have to because i never brought that up...

You are the one that said that PM was wrong and that it was 666 instead of 6,6,6. So, ever since, I am waiting for you to prove your sincerity by listing the 665 events that I should count prior to Satan's appearance or acknowledging your gross error.

 

[Zadok7000]

You are the one that said that PM was wrong and that it was 666 instead of 6,6,6.

It is six hundred, sixty and six. The Greek verifies that. 6,6,6 would be "hex hex hex".