Arnold Murray's Teaching

[Watchman_2]

your speculation is saying that either there is 666 events or three.

It is not speculaton -- it is fact by way of the word 'count'.

while i have taught it as 6, 6, 6 in the past, I wanna be sure.
trump 5 seems to be about Satan, just to name but one.

The 5th trump is about the one world order, which is ruled by the fallen angels. Please keep in mind that Satan and the fallen angels are kicked out of heaven at the same time. Satan is not revealed until midweek [Dan. 9:27].

why would Gopd mention it then?

Was God supposed to lie about the number of children? Pure coincidence that it was 666.

what about the fiery furnace in Daniel?

What about it.

That is what PM teaches....a counting stone worn smooth over time.

So?? How does that make it a false teaching?? The fact that the stone has a connotation to 'time' tells me that which one is counting are events in time.

I never said I doubted it at all.
But so is the 5th.

The 5th is not the revealing of Satan to mankind -- see above.

that is a base teaching of PM, count him over a long period of time.

The stones used for counting are worn over a long time -- not necessarily that the events take place over a long period.

And I actually said, the vials are poured out as He is descending, and finished being poured at His return, being the 7th.
This understanding is based off of PM's teaching.

Well, you are wrong. And, I never heard PM teach anything like that.

I was until recently...still trying to figure it out.
see the thread Rev12:1-6.

would you mind private messaging me with that correction?
The Daniel's Timeline thread is what got me thinking....check it out.
This guy in the video reminds me of PM and knows many of the truths that we know and teach,
so when I started listening, I kept istening till the end...2 hours I think.
His Daniel timeline has Christ's return at 2016-

Take your multiplier for one of Daniel's days times the difference in days and you you will get a bit less than 67 years. With a trigger date of May of 1948, it puts one into the spring of 2015.

what if the first half is not shortened?

There are various speculations. The end date could be shortened by 6+ years. Satan's tribulation might be delayed until 6+ years. Or, it might all be condensed around the midweek [3.5 years].

what if they are all poured at the same time, or in succession in the blink of an eye?
And I do not follow your reasoning.

The vials are not poured at the same time. The first 4 vials of wrath are against the non-elect Christians who have taken the mark of the beast. The purpose is to get them to repent of rapture [etc.].

if they have the mark of the beast, then obviously Satan was there to give it to them...ie Rev13.

Obviously, you are wrong.

I do not view the vials as a timeline persay.
I think all conditions are met on that last day.

Well, you are wrong.

if babylon is declared fallen in Rev18, and God calls his people out before the plagues come, then what else can we come up with that falls in line?

I don't understand your question.

aren't the plagues the same as the vials?

Just the 7th vial.

you say that the first 4 vials are dispensed before Satan and his angels arrive here. I disagree. The first vial shows proof that Satan is here.

Well, you are wrong.

the second beast in Rev13 is the one that dispenses the mark.
he must be here to do so.

Well, you are wrong.

 

[Watchman_2]

I overlooked nothing.

O.K. -- then, it is fair to conclude that you have bastardized the interpretation thereof 2 Thes. 2:2-4.

Paul does not identify the man of sin - the very one he is talking about in 2 Thessalonians 2:4 - as being Satan. So your reference to that verse does not prove your claim.

To a student of the Bible, Paul did identify the 'man of sin'. The manfaced entity from which sin originated is Satan. Paul leaves no doubt about whom he is speaking of when he refers to the 'man of sin' as the 'son of perdition'. There is only one 'son of perdition' -- Satan.

More so, Revelation 19 and 20 disprove the notion that the man of sin or little horn or beast equals Satan by making it clear that the beast (little horn or man of sin; same reference) and the false prophet are cast into Gehenna at the beginning of the thousand years. Satan is cast into the lake of fire at the end of the thousand years. This alone disproves any idea that Satan equals the beast (even though he is represented in one sense in the symbolism; in many instances in Revelation, the beast is referring to the man of sin or little horn). And if that is not enough, simply scroll down in 2 Thessalonians Chapter 2 to verses 8 and 9. Here Paul also distinguishes between the man of sin (lawless one) and Satan by making clear that the man of sin’s coming is after the working of Satan. Once again, these are two entities working in league with each other. They are not one and the same.

Perhaps, you overlooked something again! The 'beast' refers to the one-world order that Satan used in the first age and will use again in this flesh dispensation of time. The 'false prophet' is Satan's role as the false messiah -- the Antichrist.

When Satan is released at the end of the Lord's Day to deceive the nations again, he will not be accorded the ability to form a one-world order again. His role as Antichrist is no longer availble, or necessary, during the Lord'sDay because Christ reigns throughout those 1000 years.

Hence, Satan's one-world order and role as false messiah are thrown in the Lake of Fire at the beginning of the Lord's Day.

This is the problem with your request here. I do not need to show 665 prophetic events as I do not see 666 in the same manner that you do. I do not see it as a reference to other prophecies (whether you want to call them the 6th prophecy of each set of seals, trumpets or vials, or as 666 different prophecies). I take it to mean exactly what John describes it as in Revelation 13; a mark that people are compelled to receive and that is necessary in order to buy or sell. I don’t try to add to the meaning we are given plainly by trying to glean some esoteric reference from it beyond what is given here. If you studied a bit more history, you might understand John’s reference here.

Well, you clearly have not studied because the key word is 'count'. Until you come to grip with this Biblical fact, you will always be in errror in interpretation.

If one does not believe Satan is Christ [as rapturists will], one will not swear allegiance to Satan and will not be allowed to buy and sell.

Your entire theory that it is a mark that is compelled to be received by the Antichrist is pure nonsense! You have overlooked Rev. 12:9. Satan will deceive the whole world. Only God's elect -- not the church will not be deceived. So, if the non-elect church are restrained and forced to take a chip/mark, they will know exactly that he is the Antichrist. The Devil couldn't deceive anyone that way.

And, as I have pointed out many times previously, the mark of the beast is taken before Satan, and his angels, are even here.

 

[Watchman_2]

The rest of this is simply your ideas (and I am keenly aware that others hold similar ideas). I await some actual Scripture proving any of these assertions.

Well, you would have to be more specific as to what you disagree with so that I can point out that which you have overlooked or have not interpreted properly.

 

[Watchman_2]

This is a pretty wild thread.

I would like to make a couple of comments. In Revelation 13:4, the world worships the beast and the dragon. That indicates two separate persons.

The beast is the Antichrist.

The beast of 13:4 is not the Antichrist. This beast is described in 13:1 -

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
​

The Bible tells us exactly what these 10 horns are -

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
​

The 10 horns are Satan's fallen angels. The first beast of Rev. 13 is Satan's one-world order/gov't.

 

[LastSeven]

To a student of the Bible, Paul did identify the 'man of sin'. The manfaced entity from which sin originated is Satan. Paul leaves no doubt about whom he is speaking of when he refers to the 'man of sin' as the 'son of perdition'. There is only one 'son of perdition' -- Satan.

This is an interesting concept. The problem I have with this idea is that I would not describe Satan as a "man".

Do you have any other evidence to support this idea that Satan is the "man of sin"? And also, just going off memory here, wasn't Judas also described as the son of perdition?

 

[Douggg]

What does the "SC" (student) and "PM" (teachings) stand for?

never mind, I figured it out. Shepherd's Chapel and Pastor Murray.

 

[Douggg]

The beast of 13:4 is not the Antichrist. This beast is described in 13:1 -

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
​

The Bible tells us exactly what these 10 horns are -

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
​

The 10 horns are Satan's fallen angels. The first beast of Rev. 13 is Satan's one-world order/gov't.

I have no disagreement that in the final 42 months that the world will operate as it did in the tower of Babel days.



But the beast is both a individual king and the fourth kingdom. This information is found in Daniel 7.

[as kings] 17These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth

[as kingdoms] 23Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

[the ten kings come out of the fourth kingdom] 24And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

************************************************************

The fourth kingdom is the roman empire. And in the end times, the Roman empire is the EU. The EU although established by the treaty of Rome, and makes up territory of the Roman Empire including Rome herself, actually operates and ideology as Mystery Babylon, many people one voice. The EU parliment building is blatantly patterned after the tower of Babel, as a statement of where their mindset is.

In Revelation 13, which is the status of the beast with 42 months to go, the kingdom of the beast (the EU) will have at that point gained control of the territories of the ancient Babylonian, Medes-Persians, and Greek territories.

The ten horns are ten kings as it says in Daniel 7:24. Whether they become possessed, when they take the mark, the number of the the beast, or his name, by ten fallen angels I don't know. It could be that when people embrace the Antichrist beast as god, they will get a counterfeit born again experience, by being possessed by a demon or fallen angel. I don't know. It is a highly speculative theory.

Anyway, in Revelation, there is no hesitation to call angels - angels. The ten kings are called ten kings not ten angels. So to say that in both Daniel 7 and Revelation 17 and 13, that the ten kings are not men, but ten angels, doesn't have a sound basis, imo.

Doug L.

 

[Watchman_2]

This is an interesting concept. The problem I have with this idea is that I would not describe Satan as a "man".

Do you have any other evidence to support this idea that Satan is the "man of sin"? And also, just going off memory here, wasn't Judas also described as the son of perdition?

The phrase 'man of sin' only appears in the Bible in 2 Thes. 2:3. If you have read the accounts of angels in the Bible, you would notice that they are referrenced in appearance as young men. Satan would be no different.

The phrase 'son of perdition' is best used to clearly identify the 'man of sin' as Satan. For, there is only one son of perdition -- none other than Satan. See Eze. 28.

 

[Watchman_2]

I have no disagreement that in the final 42 months that the world will operate as it did in the tower of Babel days.

I have not indicated anything about the tower of Babel -- I wrote the 'first age'. And, I never indicated that there would be 42 months -- I wrote that the time is shortened.

 

[Douggg]

I never said anything about the tower of Babel -- I said the first age. And, I never said anything about 42 months -- I said the time is shortened.

Okay. I was going by this statement of yours... "The first beast of Rev. 13 is Satan's one-world order/gov't"

The world acting as a one-world government last occurred at the time of tower of Babel days. Since you had referenced Revelation 13, the 42 months is found in that Chapter.

 

[Watchman_2]

The ten kings are called ten kings not ten angels. So to say that in both Daniel 7 and Revelation 17 and 13, that the ten kings are not men, but ten angels, doesn't have a sound basis, imo.

True -- but, they are the fallen angels, if you read the scripture properely. See Rev. 17:12.

​

 

[Douggg]

True -- but, they are the fallen angels, if you read the scripture properely. See Rev. 17:12.

Why would I think they are angels from that passage?

 

[Watchman_2]

Okay. I was going by this statement of yours... "The first beast of Rev. 13 is Satan's one-world order/gov't"

The world acting as a one-world government last occurred at the time of tower of Babel days. Since you had referenced Revelation 13, the 42 months is found in that Chapter.

That's not true. The last time there was a one-world gov't was in the first age -- not the tower of Babel days. That one-world gov't is described in Rev. 12:3 -- same 10 kings [angels].

 

[Watchman_2]

Why would I think they are angels from that passage?

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
​

They are kingdoms empowered by Satan -- not man.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
​

Satan's angels will be cast out of heaven at the same time as Satan. The 10 chiefest among the fallen angels will head up the one-world order.

 

[Douggg]

That's not true. The last time there was a one-world gov't was in the first age -- not the tower of Babel days. That one-world gov't is described in Rev. 12:3 -- same 10 kings [angels].

Well, is your notion of a "first age" before or after God dispersed the peoples of the earth, at the time of the tower of Babel, one people with one language to a multitude of languages and scattered them abroad?

Genesis 11:
6And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

......................... 8So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

 

[Douggg]

They are kingdoms empowered by Satan -- not man.

So? The two witnesses are empowered by God to prophesy and to stop the rain, and turn the waters to blood, and smite the earth with plagues.

Does that mean the two witnesses are angelic beings as well?

3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

 

[Watchman_2]

Well, is your notion of a "first age" before or after God dispersed the peoples of the earth, at the time of the tower of Babel, one people with one language to a multitude of languages and scattered them abroad?

Genesis 11:
6And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

......................... 8So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.

You bring up a common bastardization of Bible. The 'people' spoken of were not the whole world. See Gen. 10:5. There were already Gentile people, in Gentile lands/isles, and with their own languages.

In addition, there is no mention of 10 kings at the time of Nimrod, nor anytime in history from Adam to present. Hence, it is not 'my notion' whatsoever -- it is the only Truth that I teach regarding the first age. The first age occurred from Gen. 1:1 to Gen. 1:2.

 

[Watchman_2]

So? The two witnesses are empowered by God to prophesy and to stop the rain, and turn the waters to blood, and smite the earth with plagues.

Does that mean the two witnesses are angelic beings as well?

3And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Well, it proved you in error. The 10 kings are of the fallen angels which were cast out of heaven with Satan.

 

[Douggg]

You bring up a common bastardization of Bible. The 'people' spoken of were not the whole world.

Well, why not the whole world? Genesis 11:1And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.

In addition, there is no mention of 10 kings at the time of Nimrod, nor anytime in history from Adam to present. Hence, it is not 'my notion' whatsoever -- it is the only Truth that I teach regarding the first age. The first age occurred from Gen. 1:1 to Gen. 1:2.

The ten kings are end times, not at the time of ancient tower of Babel.

imo, however, Nimrod (the Assyrian) will be end times as the beast (spirit) ascending out of the bottomless pit to incarnate the mortally wounded and recovered Antichrist man (a Jew of Roman descent).

Whether any of the current EU leaders are themselves actually any of the ten kings, I don't know.

Where are you getting "first age" by reading Genesis 1:1-2?

In Revelation, the reference is to Babylon, Revelation 17:5, 14:8, 16:19, 18:2, 18:10, 18:21.

 

[zeke73]

Well, it proved you in error. The 10 kings are of the fallen angels which were cast out of heaven with Satan.

Daniel 2 also describes the 10 kings as "10 toes" on a massive Babylonian statue that is the major kingdoms of the earth over time. (Babylon, medo-persians, greeks, Romans, then iron/clay kingdom)

The end times beast is a global government empowered by the devil. The ten kings are crowns ON the beast, the earthly global government.

There is no Scriptural reason to assume the ten kings are fallen angels.

Think about it...the devil doesn't even take a prominent role in the final kingdom - only to empower the props (antichrist/false prophet).