Arnold Murray's Teaching

[Truth Files]

Neither Matthew 24:29-31 or Matthew 25:31-46 describe a "rapture" or resurrections to immortality

These are both gatherings of mortals who survive the tribulation

The first is of a believing remnant part of Israel [the great trumpet will sound .... and this is specifically for Israel, it is not a resurrection trumpet] [Isaiah 11:11-12; 27:13; Matthew 24:29-31]

The Lord's focus in His discourse is about Israel at the time of the end .... not today's church

Many attempt to mix Israel with the church and or replace Israel with the church on the basis of national status .... the prophetic scriptures do not [both Jew and mostly gentiles compose the church today related to matters of salvation .... not national status .... the Lord still holds His covenant with Israel]

Israel still has a very significant part to play at the coming time of the end and this is why the nation has returned in part today .... to be in the land for the time of "Jacob's" trouble .... the remaining 70th week of 2520 days decreed [Jeremiah 30; 31; Exekiel 38; 39; Daniel 9:24-27; Zechariah 12,13,14; Joel 2:3; Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; Romans 11:25-36; Revelation 12]

The next part of the gathering after the tribulation period will be of the gentiles of the nations that survive [sheep and goats]

The elect of Israel and the believing sheep of the gentiles will enter and populate [procreate/reproduce in] the Lord's coming millennial kingdom on the earth .... as mortals .... not resurrected beings

Only those found believing will enter the kingdom ..... the balance will be rejected

These gatherings happen after the "tribulation of those days"

But the immortal church will be with the Lord to engage at Armageddon against the beast and his followers before the end of the tribulation period .... and the same will then rule with Him over his millennial kingdom of mortals for 1000 years

So this tells that the church will have to be made immortal in advance of the gatherings of the mortal survivors of the tribulation period

In fact, the Lord's church of today will be immortalized even before the tribulation begins because these are seen dwelling with Him in heaven as the tribulation plays out on the earth .... this time of trouble will last for 2550 days and consummate at Armageddon .... this time frame will consist of the 70th week decreed for Israel of 2520 days and another 30 days to finish the destruction of the beast and his kingdom

Daniel's visions give this exact time frame and time lapse that will transpire at the time of the end of this present age

You also need to understand that there will be flesh and blood mortals living on the earth during the Lord's coming millennial kingdom .... and satan will be kept from deceiving them for 1000 years [only mortals can be deceived by satan]

His coming millennial kingdom on the earth is described in the visions of the O.T. prophets .... and there will be populations of mortals who will multiply in number [immortals do not reproduce]

We are off of the OP here .... and I think that there has been enough significant evidence of Arnold Murray's false teaching to educate forum members and to be aware that they can be mislead by the same ike him

You should start your new posting

 

[Truth Files]

"but "we" all existed in some form then"

>No you did not

>This is another Murray tampering .... there is no scriptural support for his story and much to refute the idea

>The forum already has ample evidence that Murray is a false teacher

>And it is obvious that you follow this man by your continued discussion

>I am finished with this thread and will no longer add anything else .... my purpose is completed

 

[Satt]

Thanks Zeke for defending Mr. Murray. He is a great man and doesn't deserve to be judged so harshly.

 

[Watchman_2]

Just because people disagree on the timing of the rapture isn't necessarily a sign that they aren't saved.

Wow!! That statement is about as far from the Truth as one can get!

Take a look at 2 Thes. 2:9-12. Those that get it wrong and were taught the Truth, but rejected it, perish!

 

[Kingdom_Come]

Wow!! That statement is about as far from the Truth as one can get!

Take a look at 2 Thes. 2:9-12. Those that get it wrong and were taught the Truth, but rejected it, perish!

Actually, those verses have nothing to do with one’s belief in a pre-trib rapture.

 

[Watchman_2]

Actually, those verses have nothing to do with one’s belief in a pre-trib rapture.

Actually, they do have everything to to with rapture. The lie spoken of is that which is detailed in v. 2-4, which is the return of the Lord.

Those that believe that the Lord returns first [to rapture them away] believe the 'lie'. If rapturists have been taught the Truth and they rejected it, God will aid them in their delusion so that they may be damned.

In other words, they have taken the mark of the beast, will worship the beast, and will perish for doing so.

 

[Kingdom_Come]

Actually, they do have everything to to with rapture. The lie spoken of is that which is detailed in v. 2-4, which is the return of the Lord.

Those that believe that the Lord returns first [to rapture them away] believe the 'lie'. If rapturists have been taught the Truth and they rejected it, God will aid them in their delusion so that they may be damned.

In other words, they have taken the mark of the beast, will worship the beast, and will perish for doing so.

The ones Paul is speaking about are the ones he describes as falling away in verse 3 and in general those who do not receive the truth or who choose not to believe it. Understanding the timing of the rapture as it is referred to is not the truth that determines one’s salvation. But if one believes the truth of God, then they will believe His promises are true, including the promise of His second coming, and they will remain faithful.

The people Paul is referring to are the same one’s Peter speaks of in 2 Peter 3.

“And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.” (2Pe 3:4)

According to Peter they are willfully ignorant of God’s judgment; His previous judgment in Noah’s day, and His judgment to come. They lose faith, or perhaps they never had faith to begin with. The context of this passage seems to indicate a mindset that denies the coming judgment of God. It is a mindset that appears to even deny His second coming. That is why they ask, “Where is the promise of his coming?” (2Pe 3:4)

Peter then warns later in that same Chapter:

“Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.” (2Pe 3:17)

Peter warns them to beware unless they are led away into that same kind of thinking that denies His second coming and the coming judgment upon the wicked. These are those that fall away. They fall away from the faith and from the truth. They seek after pleasure and unrighteous things. They seek to do the will of their own heart and not the will of God. They seek to justify their sin rather than repent. They are the ones Paul speaks of when he says that God will send them a strong delusion so that they will believe a lie and ultimately perish. These are the same ones Paul describes as not believing the truth and taking pleasure in unrighteousness (2 Th 2:11-12).

 

[lilmissmontana]

thank You, Father

 

[lilmissmontana]

nm

 

[Watchman_2]

The ones Paul is speaking about are the ones he describes as falling away in verse 3 and in general those who do not receive the truth or who choose not to believe it. Understanding the timing of the rapture as it is referred to is not the truth that determines one’s salvation. But if one believes the truth of God, then they will believe His promises are true, including the promise of His second coming, and they will remain faithful.

The people Paul is referring to are the same one’s Peter speaks of in 2 Peter 3.

“And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.” (2Pe 3:4)

According to Peter they are willfully ignorant of God’s judgment; His previous judgment in Noah’s day, and His judgment to come. They lose faith, or perhaps they never had faith to begin with. The context of this passage seems to indicate a mindset that denies the coming judgment of God. It is a mindset that appears to even deny His second coming. That is why they ask, “Where is the promise of his coming?” (2Pe 3:4)

Peter then warns later in that same Chapter:

“Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.” (2Pe 3:17)

Peter warns them to beware unless they are led away into that same kind of thinking that denies His second coming and the coming judgment upon the wicked. These are those that fall away. They fall away from the faith and from the truth. They seek after pleasure and unrighteous things. They seek to do the will of their own heart and not the will of God. They seek to justify their sin rather than repent. They are the ones Paul speaks of when he says that God will send them a strong delusion so that they will believe a lie and ultimately perish. These are the same ones Paul describes as not believing the truth and taking pleasure in unrighteousness (2 Th 2:11-12).

That's a perfect example of the delusion, which God gives to rapture believers. Instead of sticking to the actual subject of 2 Thes. 2:2-4, which was Paul's correction of the Thessalonians who developed the 'any moment' belief from 1 Thes. 4:16-17 [modern day 'rapture'], those so deluded by God will attempt to create a different 'lie', as you have done.

The 'lie' is contextualized in v. 2-3.

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
​

The 'lie' surrounds the day of Christ's return. The first letter from Paul [1 Thes. 4:16-17] was bastardized by the Thessalonians into a rapture belief.

The remaining portions of v. 3-4 establish the factual basis prior to Christ's return.

for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
​

The 'falling away' is a 'condition' -- not the 'lie'.

 

[lilmissmontana]

thank You, Father

 

[Kingdom_Come]

That's a perfect example of the delusion, which God gives to rapture believers. Instead of sticking to the actual subject of 2 Thes. 2:2-4, which was Paul's correction of the Thessalonians who developed the 'any moment' belief from 1 Thes. 4:16-17 [modern day 'rapture'], those so deluded by God will attempt to create a different 'lie', as you have done.

The 'lie' is contextualized in v. 2-3.

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means:
​

The 'lie' surrounds the day of Christ's return. The first letter from Paul [1 Thes. 4:16-17] was bastardized by the Thessalonians into a rapture belief.

The remaining portions of v. 3-4 establish the factual basis prior to Christ's return.

for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

​

The 'falling away' is a 'condition' -- not the 'lie'.

First, context is everything. To claim that Paul is condemning those who see the rapture differently than he describes (especially considering the very reason he wrote this chapter in the first place, which is to correct misunderstanding; he did not condemn them for having the misunderstanding) is no less an error than people who claim Paul was confused, was a false teacher or didn’t understand things very well. It is a twisting of Scripture in this case in an attempt to silence any dissenting view point rather than simply address the fallacies of that view point. Unfortunately there are people in both camps who try to use this same tactic of fear to keep people from searching for the truth for themselves. And this is all this attitude accomplishes. It lends itself to people simply accepting what someone says for fear that if they question anything taught, they will end up in hell. There is a difference between someone not understanding or misunderstanding, and someone deliberately rejecting or remaining willfully ignorant of the truth.

Searching the Scriptures and examining the evidence is what all are called to do, and those who wish to be faithful to God will do this. More importantly, not everyone comes to Christianity understanding every single mystery there is to be understood. Are they lost simply because they don’t know or understand something? They will believe what their shepherd teaches them until they are able to understand for themselves. Condemning them will not win them. It is also inappropriate.

Yes, Paul says to them that they be not deceived that the day of Christ is at hand. He also describes the attitude of those who God will send the delusion on.

“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Th 2:10-12)

Now going back to 2 Peter:

“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things [same issues being addressed here]; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.” (2 Pe 3:15-17)

Again, what was the author speaking of earlier in this same chapter (the same things it is claimed here that Paul also addressed in his epistles)? The subject is the longsuffering of Christ with regard to the passage of time (as this is for the salvation of those down through time), and the affirmation of His promise to return and judge the world. It is belief in this promise that we are told some will essentially forsake as time passes and the world seems to go on as normal.

This deception concerns the coming of Christ, and His judgment of the world. We are told people will say, “Where is the promise of His coming?” (2Pe 3:4)

We are also told in 2 Peter that these people are scoffers and walk after their own lusts (do what they want to do rather than repent and do what God expects of them; the same kinds of people Paul describes as taking pleasure in unrighteousness [walking after their own lusts]).

Specifically Paul also wrote of the second coming and the patience of the saints that await the day of The Lord. Paul also wrote of the necessity to keep the faith. This is precisely what Paul was doing in 1 Thessalonians 4. He was reiterating the promise of the resurrection so that these saints would not mourn as those who have no hope of the resurrection. Rather they should take comfort in the fact of the resurrection of the dead and should comfort each other with this promise. Paul also addressed those who walk in unrighteousness in 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. It is these people who take pleasure in unrighteousness that will have a strong delusion sent upon them so that they will believe a lie and perish. This happens because they don’t have a love for the truth and would rather walk in unrighteousness (walk after their own lusts as recorded in 2 Peter). Having a pre-trib view of the rapture does not equate to denying the second coming as we read in 2 Peter or taking pleasure in unrighteousness (nor does holding a post-trib view for that matter).

These same people are said to be willfully ignorant of God’s power and judgment (they ignore the truth of the coming judgment by choice); the judgment of the flood before and by context the judgment that is to come on the day of The Lord.

“For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.” (2 Pe 3:5-7 ESV)

 

[Watchman_2]

you'll see, I actually deleted my post before you posted ... I realized I had read your post wrong ... for what it's worth ...

Yeah -- I can see that you deleted it.

still doesn't mean what's going on on this thread is acceptable Christian behavior ...

I can only say I apologize ... and that I tried to make it right ... it turns out we are in agreement on the rapture ... not that it makes a differnce in that way ... what I thought you said and realized you didn't was that those who believed contrary to your understanding were going to perish ... I don't necessarily agree with that ... but that wasn't my issue ... well ... non issue ... please forgive me ...

Hey -- its o.k. We all make errors in understanding what another has communicated.

God is the Judge; however, the Word is replete with understanding as to that which puts a Christian in jeopardy. In the endtime, it is clear that the worshipping of Satan, in ignorance of the Word [having not been taught the Truth of the fallacy of rapture], is not worthy of a trip to the Lake of Fire. It would be unfair of God to do that as those folks were never taught Truth [God is the judge as to whether they were taught].

However, it is different for those in the rapture belief system who were taught the Truth and, thereafter, rejected it for rapture. If they do not repent before the endtime and end up worshipping Satan as the one to rapture them away, God is fair in sentencing them to perish in the Lake of Fire.

 

[Watchman_2]

First, context is everything.

To this, I fully agree. See my previous post to you regarding the correct context. The 'lie' is regarding the return of Christ. Rapturists teach that Christ comes first to rapture them away. 2 Thes. 2:2-4 makes it clear that Satan comes first. For you to attempt to divert away from this simple context is only proof of the delusion God has promised in v. 9-12.

To claim that Paul is condemning those who see the rapture differently than he describes (especially considering the very reason he wrote this chapter in the first place, which is to correct misunderstanding; he did not condemn them for having the misunderstanding) is no less an error than people who claim Paul was confused, was a false teacher or didn’t understand things very well.

There is no 'rapture' in the Word of God. The Thessalonians created the 'any moment' doctrine based upon 1 Thes. 4:16-17. Modern rapture theology was the byproduct of this false 'any moment' doctrine combined with the sick and evil dream of Margaret Macdonald in 1830, which was witnessed by John Darby, who made a religion out of it. The resultant was the false belief system involving the taking of the church prior to the endtime tribulation [thereafter modified by mid-tribbers and post-tribbers].

With respect to the Thessalonians, there would have been a penalty for them as well for their 'any moment' doctrine, eventhough they would not be alive in the endtime.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
​

The 'rapture' belief leads to the worshipping of Satan. Hence, eventhough rapturists, who have already died, did not actually worship Satan, they do not make the first resurrection because they already took the mark of the beast for believing in rapture.

The same applied to the Thessalonians. Their 'any moment' doctrine would lead to the worshipping of Satan. Hence, they already took the mark of the beast as well. Paul was pointing out to them the condemnation associated therewith such false doctrine. With such condemnation, I would surmise that the Thessalonians changed their belief quickly.

Unfortunately, Paul's condemnation to the Thessalonians for their version of 'rapture' ['any moment doctrine] does not sway many modern day rapturists.

It is a twisting of Scripture in this case in an attempt to silence any dissenting view point rather than simply address the fallacies of that view point.

What?? Be careful with your false accusations!!

Unfortunately there are people in both camps who try to use this same tactic of fear to keep people from searching for the truth for themselves. And this is all this attitude accomplishes. It lends itself to people simply accepting what someone says for fear that if they question anything taught, they will end up in hell. There is a difference between someone not understanding or misunderstanding, and someone deliberately rejecting or remaining willfully ignorant of the truth.

Well, there is no Truth in rapture. Folks that are genuinely interested in Truth can easily discern this for themselves. 2 Thes. 2 clearly sets forth the endtime order of appearance. Satan comes first. The Lord only returns once -- and, that is after Satan has established himself.

Searching the Scriptures and examining the evidence is what all are called to do, and those who wish to be faithful to God will do this. More importantly, not everyone comes to Christianity understanding every single mystery there is to be understood. Are they lost simply because they don’t know or understand something? They will believe what their shepherd teaches them until they are able to understand for themselves. Condemning them will not win them. It is also inappropriate.

Those that are damned and perish pursuant to 2 Thes. 2 do so for a singular certain lie -- not all untruths. Keep in mind that God is completely fair. You need to distinguish between damnation/perishing and not making the first resurrection. Whereas, those that are innocently duped into the false rapture religion are not damned at Christ's return, they are not worthy of making the first resurrection either.

Yes, Paul says to them that they be not deceived that the day of Christ is at hand. He also describes the attitude of those who God will send the delusion on.

“And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Th 2:10-12)

What 'truth' is spoken of?? It is that the Lord does not return until after the great apostasy [which is rapture -- 1 Tim. 4:1] and after Satan establishes himself in Jerusalem claiming to be Christ. Those that reject this for the lie of rapture do take pleasure in their unrighteousness.

Now going back to 2 Peter:

“And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things [same issues being addressed here]; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.” (2 Pe 3:15-17)

Again, what was the author speaking of earlier in this same chapter (the same things it is claimed here that Paul also addressed in his epistles)? The subject is the longsuffering of Christ with regard to the passage of time (as this is for the salvation of those down through time), and the affirmation of His promise to return and judge the world. It is belief in this promise that we are told some will essentially forsake as time passes and the world seems to go on as normal.

This deception concerns the coming of Christ, and His judgment of the world. We are told people will say, “Where is the promise of His coming?” (2Pe 3:4)

We are also told in 2 Peter that these people are scoffers and walk after their own lusts (do what they want to do rather than repent and do what God expects of them; the same kinds of people Paul describes as taking pleasure in unrighteousness [walking after their own lusts]).

Specifically Paul also wrote of the second coming and the patience of the saints that await the day of The Lord. Paul also wrote of the necessity to keep the faith. This is precisely what Paul was doing in 1 Thessalonians 4. He was reiterating the promise of the resurrection so that these saints would not mourn as those who have no hope of the resurrection. Rather they should take comfort in the fact of the resurrection of the dead and should comfort each other with this promise. Paul also addressed those who walk in unrighteousness in 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. It is these people who take pleasure in unrighteousness that will have a strong delusion sent upon them so that they will believe a lie and perish. This happens because they don’t have a love for the truth and would rather walk in unrighteousness (walk after their own lusts as recorded in 2 Peter). Having a pre-trib view of the rapture does not equate to denying the second coming as we read in 2 Peter or taking pleasure in unrighteousness (nor does holding a post-trib view for that matter).

These same people are said to be willfully ignorant of God’s power and judgment (they ignore the truth of the coming judgment by choice); the judgment of the flood before and by context the judgment that is to come on the day of The Lord.

“For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.” (2 Pe 3:5-7 ESV)

Not relevant to Paul's teaching in 2 Thes. 2. Paul frames the context -

2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
​

So, if you think that the 'lie' is about something other than the timing of the return of the Lord, you need to go to 1 Thes. and find it. By way of your diversion into 2 Pet., the viewers can see the delusion that God has given those that reject the Truth about the Lord's return [1 Thes. 4:16-17].

 

[lilmissmontana]

as I was trying to sleep I was thinking about this thread and was reminded:

2 Chronicles 16:9
Asa rebuked by Hanani

For the eyes of the Lord run to and
fro throughout the whole earth, to show
himself strong in the behalf of them
whose heart is perfect toward him. ...

Zechariah 4:10
the candlestick and the olive tree

For who hath despised the day of small
things? for they shall rejoice, and shall
see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbael
with those eyes; they are the eyes of the
Lord, which run to and fro through the
whole earth.

Job 34:21,22
God cannot be unjust

For his eyes are upon the ways of man,
and he seeth all his goings.
There is no darkness, not shadow of death,
wher the workers of iniquity may hide
themselves.

Proverbs 5:21

For the ways of the man are before the eyes
of the Lord,
and he pondereth all his goings.

Proverbs 15:3
the wise and the foolish

The eyes of the Lord are in every place,
beholding the evil and the good,

Jeremiah 16:17
signs of the coming captivity

For mine eyes are upon all their ways:
they are not hid from my face, neither
is their iniquity hid from mine eyes.

Jeremiah 32:19
Jeremiah's prayer

Great in counsel, and mighty in work:
for thine eyes are open upon all the
ways of the sons of men: to give every
one according to his ways, and according
to the fruit of hs doings:

Revelation 14;13
the message of the angels

And I heard a voice from heaven saying
unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead
which die in the lord from henceforth:
Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest
from their labors; and their works do
follow them.

Revelation 19:8
those in heaven praise God

And to her was granted that she should be
arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for
the fine linen is the righteousness of saints

thank You, Father, for the reminder that you are the One in control and that you know every thing that hurts another and that our works follow us ... one way or another ... some things just aren't our battle ... as always You send Comfort ...

 

[ntr1984]

Yeah AM is very deceptve

 

[Kingdom_Come]

To this, I fully agree. See my previous post to you regarding the correct context. The 'lie' is regarding the return of Christ. Rapturists teach that Christ comes first to rapture them away. 2 Thes. 2:2-4 makes it clear that Satan comes first. For you to attempt to divert away from this simple context is only proof of the delusion God has promised in v. 9-12.

There is no 'rapture' in the Word of God. The Thessalonians created the 'any moment' doctrine based upon 1 Thes. 4:16-17. Modern rapture theology was the byproduct of this false 'any moment' doctrine combined with the sick and evil dream of Margaret Macdonald in 1830, which was witnessed by John Darby, who made a religion out of it. The resultant was the false belief system involving the taking of the church prior to the endtime tribulation [thereafter modified by mid-tribbers and post-tribbers].
With respect to the Thessalonians, there would have been a penalty for them as well for their 'any moment' doctrine, eventhough they would not be alive in the endtime.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I am not disagreeing about the doctrine of the rapture (as it is commonly taught). I am disagreeing with your contention that people who hold to the pre-trib rapture doctrine are going to hell, which is exactly what your posts implied (at least the ones I responded to), and exactly why I responded. You claim this is what Paul was talking about, and you miss Paul’s plain words which explicitly state upon whom the delusion is sent. Your claim seems to suggest that believing in a pre-trib rapture is the delusion, and that those who believe in it are going to perish because they believe in it.

Yet this is not what Paul was teaching. Yes, he was correcting what appears to have been a misunderstood concept. He was making it plain that the day of Christ (and our gathering together unto Him) cannot happen until two things happen first, the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin. However, you are trying to use word association to link the use of the word deceive in this context, which is simply imploring them not to let anyone sway them away from this teaching, to the strong delusion that God will send upon those who have no love for the truth and choose to believe a lie and live in unrighteousness.

(why would someone’s punishment be that they are sent a delusion to believe in a ‘lie’ when believing in that same ‘lie’ is the reason for the punishment in the first place? It’s about as logical as telling someone they are cursed to smell like cigarette smoke since they have chosen to smoke cigarettes; smelling like cigarette smoke is already a byproduct of choosing to smoke in the first place)

You are equating a belief in a pre-trib rapture (no matter how misguided it may be) to choosing to be ignorant of the truth and, most importantly, to choosing to live in unrighteousness and pursue one’s own lusts. This is a major error in logic for numerous reasons, but the main one is that someone can love God, serve God, and live a righteous life without understanding every mystery concerning eschatology. Thus believing in a pre-trib rapture does not equate to choosing to pursue one’s on lusts (or live in and take pleasure in unrighteousness according to Paul). The primary reason for people to resort to these kinds of tactics is simply to instill fear in those who might question what they teach. It’s the “if you don’t believe as I do, you’re going to hell” tactic. This mentality leads to cult like observance of and belief in what someone teaches since questioning it means losing one’s soul. Yet searching the Scriptures to know the truth for one’s self is lauded in Scripture, not condemned. This process will lead to many asking questions, forming erroneous conclusions and even completely misunderstanding things. However, if one remains open to the truth, humbly seeks it, desires it and truly seeks after God, I believe God will lead them to all they need to know. I also think addressing error benefits all. When people put forth ideas or ask questions, it’s an opportunity for everyone to contribute and learn. We can then see what the Scriptures actually say on a subject.

You can’t foster an atmosphere that lends itself to this kind of fellowship and study by condemning someone because they dare to have a question or have reached a faulty conclusion.

The 'rapture' belief leads to the worshipping of Satan. Hence, eventhough rapturists, who have already died, did not actually worship Satan, they do not make the first resurrection because they already took the mark of the beast for believing in rapture.
The same applied to the Thessalonians. Their 'any moment' doctrine would lead to the worshipping of Satan. Hence, they already took the mark of the beast as well. Paul was pointing out to them the condemnation associated therewith such false doctrine. With such condemnation, I would surmise that the Thessalonians changed their belief quickly.
Unfortunately, Paul's condemnation to the Thessalonians for their version of 'rapture' ['any moment doctrine] does not sway many modern day rapturists.

Those that are damned and perish pursuant to 2 Thes. 2 do so for a singular certain lie -- not all untruths. Keep in mind that God is completely fair. You need to distinguish between damnation/perishing and not making the first resurrection. Whereas, those that are innocently duped into the false rapture religion are not damned at Christ's return, they are not worthy of making the first resurrection either.

No, believing in a pre-trib rapture in no way means automatically serving Satan. Even Scripture itself recognizes that not everything in Scripture is easily understood, and that some actually wrestle with some concepts within it. And no, the mark of the beast is not a belief in the pre-trib rapture. First of all, the mark is only mentioned as being implemented during the reign of the beast. The man of sin’s reign is 42 months according to that same Chapter of Revelation. That alone refutes any notion of someone receiving it prior to its coming into existence. Scripture plainly states that one cannot buy or sell without this mark (last I checked, people who don’t believe in a ‘pre-trib’ rapture [which you are calling taking the mark] can buy and sell just fine at the moment), a fact that no amount of trying to “spiritualize” away this prophecy (which is exactly what you are doing) can accurately account for. We are also told that it will be received in either the forehead or the hand. Again, this is far too specific to be “spiritualized” away.

Most importantly is what we read in the next Chapter over in Revelation.

“And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” (Rev 14:9-11)

This is the fate of those who worship the beast, and those who receive the mark of his name. So what you just implied about God allowing those who “receive the mark” (which you have erroneously interpreted as belief in a pre-trib rapture) into the kingdom but requiring them to wait until the second resurrection, goes against this very plain Scripture which states that the smoke of their torment (the ones who worshipped the beast, and who have received the mark) will ascend up forever and ever.

Again, you are trying to paint people into a corner using a tactic of fear, not love.

What?? Be careful with your false accusations!!

That's a perfect example of the delusion, which God gives to rapture believers. Instead of sticking to the actual subject of 2 Thes. 2:2-4, which was Paul's correction of the Thessalonians who developed the 'any moment' belief from 1 Thes. 4:16-17 [modern day 'rapture'], those so deluded by God will attempt to create a different 'lie', as you have done.

You should be mindful of your own words here. However, this assumes the statement is false.

 

[POSTIOS]

IMO the 2Thes2's falling away, is the result of the lie.
And there is no better candidate for that falling away, than the pre trib crowd.
They are the ones that do not abide by 1Thes3:13, 1Thes4:14-16, or 2Thes2:1-4.

since this timing is the very basis for the letter's, I can see why many are against the lie that they think is pre trib. I think that is the lie as well.


IMO the very many hypocritical Christians, even tho they claim that they love the Lord,
will need refinement..and it is offered in the Lord's day.

I think that is the very reason behind why the Lord allows them to be deceived.

 

[POSTIOS]

Yeah AM is very deceptve

how so. Care to be specific?

 

[Watchman_2]

I am not disagreeing about the doctrine of the rapture (as it is commonly taught). I am disagreeing with your contention that people who hold to the pre-trib rapture doctrine are going to hell, which is exactly what your posts implied (at least the ones I responded to), and exactly why I responded.

I never used the term 'hell' due to its ambiguity. I used the terms 'first resurrection' and 'lake of fire', as these are more specific and leave no misunderstanding as to the meaning.

I have plainly stated that all who are unrepentant of their rapture belief, whether they have died before Christ returns or are alive when Christ returns, do not make the first resurrection, as they have already taken the mark of the beast [Rev. 20:4]. It is not only rapturists that have taken the mark of the beast -- preterists also await the Lord's return first [they think Satan's tribulation has already occurred]. In addition, many other Christians, out of Bible illiteracy, will take the mark as well during the tribulation time.

What Paul is teaching in 2 Thes. 2 is that, out of those that believe the lie [Christ comes first], those that were taught the Truth and rejected it are given delusion so that they may be damned. They will perish in the Lake of Fire.

From that teaching, one can surmise that those in the rapture belief system, who were never taught the Truth, do not get sentenced to the Lake of Fire based upon rapture. They will get their chance to overcome at the end of the Lord's Day.

So, if you are contending that I am teaching that all rapture believers are damned to perish in the Lake of Fire, you are remiss in understanding as to what I am teaching.

You claim this is what Paul was talking about, and you miss Paul’s plain words which explicitly state upon whom the delusion is sent. Your claim seems to suggest that believing in a pre-trib rapture is the delusion, and that those who believe in it are going to perish because they believe in it.

I believe that I already covered this. The 'delusion' is given by God to those that have rejected the Truth about the fallacy of rapture, so that they may be damned. Your posts are perfect examples of such delusion as you cannot bring yourself to see the very simple Truth that Paul sets forth in 2 Thes. 2.

Rapture is the 'lie' -- not the 'delusion' given by God to rapturists.

Yet this is not what Paul was teaching. Yes, he was correcting what appears to have been a misunderstood concept. He was making it plain that the day of Christ (and our gathering together unto Him) cannot happen until two things happen first, the falling away and the revealing of the man of sin.

Have you ever given any thought to why the 'falling away' has to occur prior to Satan's appearance on the scene?? The answer is simple. The purpose of Satan's deception and tribulation is to test non-elect Christians. The 'falling away', as addressed in 1 Tim. 4:1, is rapture theology [along with Preterism].

God wants to ensure that all non-elect endtime Christians have the opportunity to go for Satan's Doctrine, the Rapture, if they so choose. That way, their fates are sealed when they fail to repent thereof prior to Satan's tribulation. The endtime Christian church today is mainly comprised of the 1/3 that rebelled with Satan [Rev. 12:4].

However, you are trying to use word association to link the use of the word deceive in this context, which is simply imploring them not to let anyone sway them away from this teaching, to the strong delusion that God will send upon those who have no love for the truth and choose to believe a lie and live in unrighteousness.

According to your logic, a person who is taught that eating pork is unbiblical, rejects that Truth, and thereafter goes out to Denny's and takes pleasure in eating a Grand Slam breakfast is going to perish in the Lake of Fire pursuant to Paul's teaching in 2 Thes. 2.

I make this analogy to show the outright absurdity of your position. You act as if the 'truth' can be anything, which, in turn, infers that the 'lie' causing one to be damned and to perish can be any unbiblical belief as well.

You are in complete error -- Paul is only speaking of one specific Truth/Lie in 2 Thes. 2. And, that Truth/Lie is the return of Christ.

(why would someone’s punishment be that they are sent a delusion to believe in a ‘lie’ when believing in that same ‘lie’ is the reason for the punishment in the first place? It’s about as logical as telling someone they are cursed to smell like cigarette smoke since they have chosen to smoke cigarettes; smelling like cigarette smoke is already a byproduct of choosing to smoke in the first place)

They are not sent a delusion to believe in a lie. Please read my posts carefully. Rapturists choose to believe the lie of their own free will. Once God knows that a rapurist has been taught the Truth regarding the fallacy of rapture and rejected it, God sends them delusion thereafter so that they might be damned. God is completely fair.

You are equating a belief in a pre-trib rapture (no matter how misguided it may be) to choosing to be ignorant of the truth and, most importantly, to choosing to live in unrighteousness and pursue one’s own lusts. This is a major error in logic for numerous reasons, but the main one is that someone can love God, serve God, and live a righteous life without understanding every mystery concerning eschatology.

See analogy above. According to your logic, eating pork is a one-way ticket to the Lake of Fire.

I think that you should give God a little credit for being fair. If He is going to delude folks so that they may be damned, it must be over something very important and easily ascertainable in scripture. Surely, eating pork, and a whole host of other unbiblical beliefs, do not qualify as important enough to fry someone in the Lake of Fire.

However, rapture is important enough! As rapture is a belief system designed to have one worship Satan instead of Christ, it easily qualifies as a reasonable basis to fry some christians who, after being taught the Truth, rejects it.

Second, it has to be plainly laid out in scripture. Paul, in 2 Thes. 2, does just that. Anyone who is familiar with Bible should, without excuse, know that Satan arrives on the scene before Christ. There is no ambiguity about it whatsoever in God's Word.

Thus believing in a pre-trib rapture does not equate to choosing to pursue one’s on lusts (or live in and take pleasure in unrighteousness according to Paul). The primary reason for people to resort to these kinds of tactics is simply to instill fear in those who might question what they teach. It’s the “if you don’t believe as I do, you’re going to hell” tactic. This mentality leads to cult like observance of and belief in what someone teaches since questioning it means losing one’s soul. Yet searching the Scriptures to know the truth for one’s self is lauded in Scripture, not condemned. This process will lead to many asking questions, forming erroneous conclusions and even completely misunderstanding things. However, if one remains open to the truth, humbly seeks it, desires it and truly seeks after God, I believe God will lead them to all they need to know. I also think addressing error benefits all. When people put forth ideas or ask questions, it’s an opportunity for everyone to contribute and learn. We can then see what the Scriptures actually say on a subject.

You can’t foster an atmosphere that lends itself to this kind of fellowship and study by condemning someone because they dare to have a question or have reached a faulty conclusion.

Nonsense. God's Truth should be welcome news to those seeking Truth. See Pro. 9:8. Only scorners [including those so deluded by God] would question the manner in which the seeds of Truth are cast.

No, believing in a pre-trib rapture in no way means automatically serving Satan.

I never said that. I said "unrepentant rapturists".

God sends the first 4 vials of His wrath onto rapturists [and others] in hope that they will repent of their false belief system. God sends His two witnesses who will, up to 3.5 days before Christ's return, be turning the hearts and minds of deceived Christians, including many rapturists. God's elect will also be working up to the very end -- having the Holy Spirit speak through them to change hearts and minds.

So, there is much opportunity for rapturists, including those of them deluded by God, to repent and accept Truth.

Even Scripture itself recognizes that not everything in Scripture is easily understood, and that some actually wrestle with some concepts within it. And no, the mark of the beast is not a belief in the pre-trib rapture. First of all, the mark is only mentioned as being implemented during the reign of the beast.

You are in gross error.

Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

​

People have the mark of the beast prior to the first vial of God's wrath is poured onto them. Yet, the reign of the beast does not occur until the 6th vial.