Arminianism is untenable

[janxharris]

In that context, who is the "our"?
Hint: go back a few chapters.

Janx, have you ever considered that you just make assumptions without even realizing? Here, you assumed that "our" was a reference to the entire human race. Why did you do that, if not because of tradition?

1. Isaiah 53 is prophetic and speaks of Jesus Christ's suffering at the cross.
2. v3. He was despised and rejected by mankind

 

[janxharris]

False. In Calvinism, justification is by faith, not by election.

So then this has a bearing on how we define the atonement. The OP's consistency relies on the understanding of Christ's atonement paying in full irrespective of faith; so those in hell - those who did not believe have had, the OP says, their sins paid for. But, as you rightly say, we cannot ignore the faith element in the equation.

The OP rests on a definition of the atonement that isn't tenable.

 

[janxharris]

As has been pointed out election is not salvation. being justified by faith is. and you avoided the question I asked, as you have been you really don't want to answer that question honestly, do you? Here it is again so you don't have to expend effort to find it:

It's not a hard question. Why won't you answer it?



Make up your mind.



You most certainly are, sir.

Jan, you say they are in hell because they rejected the gift. Is that not a sin? If so, wasn't that sin dealt with for all men, as you claim? If it has been dealt with, how can they be held accountable a second time?

http://www.christianforums.com/t7836789-13/#post66162638

 

[janxharris]

False. In Calvinism, justification is by faith, not by election.


More strawmen from you, janx?

The OP does not want us to discuss Calvinism so I won't reply as I would have otherwise.

 

[nobdysfool]

The OP does not want us to discuss Calvinism so I won't reply as I would have otherwise.

Translated: I can't answer the question, so I'll hide behind another reason.

This isn't difficult theological stuff. It's a simple question that should be simple to answer, aside from the fact that it exposes the fatal flaw in your theology. Sorry about that. This question is clearly closely connected to the OP's original question, so it is neither off-topic, nor is it discussing Calvinism. We are taking a look at Arminianism.

So far it isn't faring so well on this point....

 

[janxharris]

Translated: I can't answer the question, so I'll hide behind another reason.

This isn't difficult theological stuff. It's a simple question that should be simple to answer, aside from the fact that it exposes the fatal flaw in your theology. Sorry about that. This question is clearly closely connected to the OP's original question, so it is neither off-topic, nor is it discussing Calvinism. We are taking a look at Arminianism.

So far it isn't faring so well on this point....

http://www.christianforums.com/t7836789-13/#post66162638

 

[nobdysfool]

Let the record show that Janxharris refuses to answer the question.

 

[tall73]

Actually, it says that all who were bitten looked and were healed.

But....what about the ones who were unable to look because of their nature? What about their invincible sinfulness that would not allow them to look? What about their complete inability to respond to God?

More to the topic:

In the Day of Atonement the high priest made corporate provision for the whole camp. However, those who refused to participate and afflict themselves were cut off and did not receive the benefit.

The high priest made provision that would have applied to them, but they removed themselves from the benefit.

Either you accept the blood offered for your sin, or you pay with your own blood. Either the Sacrifice bears your sin, or you bear your own sin.

 

[bling]

I'm not following that which I have emboldened.

Personally I see myself as those that where there just staying back watching and doing nothing. Unfortunately, this makes me just as guilty as those that yelled “Crucify Him!”

Those on the day of Pentecost that were told by Peter: “You Crucified Him” is what Peter is also saying to me. My reaction to this realization (when I came to the realization) was similar to the 3000 on Pentecost, “I had a death blow to my heart (the worst possible feeling I could have and live) and with my last breath said “What can I do!”

This is how I (like Paul, like Paul teaches us and to some degree like God experienced) was crucified with Christ (Paul does not teach Christ was crucified instead of us). As our Love for Christ goes, so grows our empathy for what He did.

 

[bling]

From everything you've ever posted, I would never call you Arminian.

Arminian is not defined by you and has a very broad definition that could include anyone opposed to the Calvinist teachings over the doctrines of divine predestination and election.

 

[catholichomeschooler]

False. In Calvinism, justification is by faith, not by election.

What does the bible say about this?

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

[Skala]

The OP does not want us to discuss Calvinism so I won't reply as I would have otherwise.

That's a first.

 

[Skala]

1. Isaiah 53 is prophetic and speaks of Jesus Christ's suffering at the cross.
2. v3. He was despised and rejected by mankind

But not you. You didn't reject him. The apostles didn't reject him. In fact, the NT tells us that many believed on him.

John 10:42 And in that place many believed in Jesus.
John 8:30 Even as he spoke, many believed in him.
John 7:31 Still, many in the crowd believed in him

So by "mankind" it cannot be meant "every single individual in the human race", right? Thus, you haven't really advanced your argument.

 

[nobdysfool]

What does the bible say about this?

James 2:24
You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

We know that Catholics believe that, with a heavy emphasis on works. But this isn't the whole counsel, because Paul specifically taught Justification apart from works.

 

[stenerson]

Okay, I'll endeavour not to mention Calvinism on this thread.

If Christ paid in full actually, rather than potentially, then those whom He died for would be born saved would they not?

All in it's good time. Those whom He foreknew He predestinated, the same He called, etc..
He loved His elect/sheep with an everlasting love. He loved them before bringing the world into existence. He assures us that He will call them.

 

[Hammster]

Okay, I'll endeavour not to mention Calvinism on this thread.

If Christ paid in full actually, rather than potentially, then those whom He died for would be born saved would they not?

What do you mean by saved? Regenerated? Justified? Sanctified?

Please be specific.

 

[Josephus]

Arminians insist that Jesus took the punishment for all sins. Yet, they admit that there are people in hell because of their sins. This makes God disingenuous because He punishes people for sins that His Son already paid for.

smh

What do you think about a gift offered but refused - who owns the gift?

 

[Hammster]

What do you think about a gift offered but refused - who owns the gift?

Not really the subject. Is there a relevance?

 

[janxharris]

Jan, you say they are in hell because they rejected the gift. Is that not a sin? If so, wasn't that sin dealt with for all men, as you claim? If it has been dealt with, how can they be held accountable a second time?

If Christ paid in full for such a rejection of the gift (and in the manner you seem to imply) then why would anyone need to have faith in the first place?

 

[janxharris]

Personally I see myself as those that where there just staying back watching and doing nothing. Unfortunately, this makes me just as guilty as those that yelled “Crucify Him!”

Those on the day of Pentecost that were told by Peter: “You Crucified Him” is what Peter is also saying to me. My reaction to this realization (when I came to the realization) was similar to the 3000 on Pentecost, “I had a death blow to my heart (the worst possible feeling I could have and live) and with my last breath said “What can I do!”

This is how I (like Paul, like Paul teaches us and to some degree like God experienced) was crucified with Christ (Paul does not teach Christ was crucified instead of us). As our Love for Christ goes, so grows our empathy for what He did.

Okay, I see what you mean.