Arminianism is untenable

[Hammster]

Arminians insist that Jesus took the punishment for all sins. Yet, they admit that there are people in hell because of their sins. This makes God disingenuous because He punishes people for sins that His Son already paid for.

smh

 

[janxharris]

Arminians insist that Jesus took the punishment for all sins. Yet, they admit that there are people in hell because of their sins. This makes God disingenuous because He punishes people for sins that His Son already paid for.

smh

Why is this any different from your elect being born dead in their sins when Jesus has already paid?

Jesus provided for all at the cross.

 

[Hammster]

Off topic.

 

[Hammster]

Well, that was fun.

 

[Skala]

Arminians insist that Jesus took the punishment for all sins. Yet, they admit that there are people in hell because of their sins. This makes God disingenuous because He punishes people for sins that His Son already paid for.

smh

Not only disingenuous, but unjust. It is unjust to demand two payments for one debt.

 

[Hammster]

Not only disingenuous, but unjust. It is unjust to demand two payments for one debt.

Exactly.

 

[janxharris]

Arminians insist that Jesus took the punishment for all sins. Yet, they admit that there are people in hell because of their sins. This makes God disingenuous because He punishes people for sins that His Son already paid for.

smh

John 3:14-15, Numbers 21:9-10. All snake-bitten Israelites were provided for - but to actually live they had to believe and look to the raised serpent. Jesus describes salvation through Him in the same way - 'Just as Moses lifted up the snake...' The correlation between the source and target is crystal clear:

The raised bronze serpent provided for all - Christ crucified provides for all
Only those who believed and looked lived - only those with faith in Christ will have eternal life.

Neither your theology nor your OP takes account of Jesus' analogy.

 

[Hammster]

John 3:14-15, Numbers 21:9-10. All snake-bitten Israelites were provided for - but to actually live they had to believe and look to the raised serpent. Jesus describes salvation through Him in the same way - 'Just as Moses lifted up the snake...' The correlation between the source and target is crystal clear:

The raised bronze serpent provided for all - Christ crucified provides for all
Only those who believed and looked lived - only those with faith in Christ will have eternal life.

Neither your theology nor your OP takes account of Jesus' analogy.

All of the Israelites lived who were bitten after the serpent was made. So, your argument really isn't one.

 

[janxharris]

All of the Israelites lived who were bitten after the serpent was made. So, your argument really isn't one.

That is an assumption.

 

[janxharris]

Not only disingenuous, but unjust. It is unjust to demand two payments for one debt.

In which case it would have been unjust of God to let those that may not have looked at the serpent - to let them die; the price was already paid you say.

Your theology does not fit Jesus' analogy.

 

[janxharris]

The OP is a straw man for it does not align with how Jesus describes salvation through his crucifixion.

 

[Hammster]

That is an assumption.

No, it's scripture.

 

[Hammster]

The OP is a straw man for it does not align with how Jesus describes salvation through his crucifixion.

Empty words.

Fact: In Arminianism, Christ takes the punishment for all sins for all time.

Fact: in Arminianism, some people are punished for sins that Christ already took the punishment for.

No straw man in sight.

 

[janxharris]

No, it's scripture.

Opinion and none provided.

 

[janxharris]

Empty words.

Fact: In Arminianism, Christ takes the punishment for all sins for all time.

Taken literally, then your theology would be in difficulty too - as I have already said, your elect are born dead in their sins - so the atonement is not quite as you are making it out to be.

The OP relies on an assumed and erroneous view of the atonement and is thus a straw man.

 

[Hammster]

Opinion and none provided.

So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.

 

[Hammster]

Taken literally, then your theology would be in difficulty too - as I have already said, your elect are born dead in their sins - so the atonement is not quite as you are making it out to be.

The OP relies on an assumed and erroneous view of the atonement and is thus a straw man.

We are not discussing my theology. We've done that on the countless threads you've started. This is about your erroneous view of the atonement.

If you deny that Christ bore the punishment for sin for all men, then just say so.

 

[janxharris]

So Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on a pole. And if a serpent bit anyone, he would look at the bronze serpent and live.

Most versions allow for the possibility of not looking.

 

[janxharris]

We are not discussing my theology. We've done that on the countless threads you've started. This is about your erroneous view of the atonement.

Fitting your definition to your theology in order to prove that your definition is incorrect is permissible.

If you deny that Christ bore the punishment for sin for all men, then just say so.

I deny it because your definition is wrong.

 

[Hammster]

Most versions allow for the possibility of not looking.

Here's a few popular ones.

So Moses made a bronze snake and mounted it on a pole. Whenever someone was bitten, and he looked at the bronze snake, he recovered. ([bless and do not curse]Numbers‬ [bless and do not curse]21‬:[bless and do not curse]9‬ HCSB)

And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived. ([bless and do not curse]Numbers‬ [bless and do not curse]21‬:[bless and do not curse]9‬ NASB)

And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. ([bless and do not curse]Numbers‬ [bless and do not curse]21‬:[bless and do not curse]9‬ KJV)

So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived. ([bless and do not curse]Numbers‬ [bless and do not curse]21‬:[bless and do not curse]9‬ NIV)