Armegeddon/Gog-Magog same event?

[NJBeliever]

I very much agree with this

Alright!

 

[zeke37]

Any other views on this "simple" topic? Thanks

I think that they are 2 military actions at the very same time...

one on the mid-east...and one in Alaska possibly, from you know who!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I think that they are 2 military actions at the very same time...

one on the mid-east...and one in Alaska possibly, from you know who!

Interesting view.
Thanks for responding

 

[Truth Files]

Exactly the same event

Compare Ezekiel 39 with Revelation's account side by side [Revelation 16:1-16; 19:11-21]

Ezekiel's vision has two parts: the invasion of Israel .... and the resultant battle of Armageddon 42 months late [Revelation 11:2; 13:1-5]

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Exactly the same event

Compare Ezekiel 39 with Revelation's account side by side [Revelation 16:1-16; 19:11-21]

Ezekiel's vision has two parts: the invasion of Israel .... and the resultant battle of Armageddon 42 months late [Revelation 11:2; 13:1-5]

Thank you for posting

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The wording in Reve 16:14 is also eerily similar to the wording in Reve 20:8.
Reve 16:16 also appears to be the fulfillment spoken on in 2eter 3:12 concerning the great day of God and Reve 20:8 appears to come from Ezekiel 7 concerning the 4 corners of the land of Israel. Thoughts?

Reve 16:14 For they are spirits of demons doing signs which is going-out on the kings of the land, and the being-homed, whole, to be together assembling/leading/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the Battle of the Day, that the Great of the God the Almighty...............
[2 Peter 3:12/Reve 20:8

Reve 20:8 And he shall be coming out to deceive the Nations, the in the four corners of the land, the Gog and the Magog, together-assembling/leading/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the Battle of which the Number [*of-them] as the Sand of the Sea.
[Ezekiel 7:1/Reve 16:14]

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Any other views on this? Thanks

 

[Choose Wisely]

Any other views on this? Thanks

No they are not the same event.

Gog Magog happens after the 1000 years.

 

[hiscosmicgoldfish]

What are others views of the "armegeddon/gog-magog in Revelation.

I and some others are of the view they are 1 and the same event, since the Bible only mentiones 1 Great Day of the Lord God Almighty.

I would like to expound on these 2 verses as this thread progresses. Thank you

Reve 16:16 And he together-assembles/leads/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the Place, the being called to Hebrew Armageddwn

Reve 20:8 And he shall be coming out to deceive the Nations, the in the four corners of the land, the Gog and the Magog, together-assembles/leads/sun-agagein <4863> (5629) them into the Battle of which the Number as the Sand of the Sea. [Reve 16:14]

i voted not sure. Why is Gog and Magog mentioned in Rev.? if this is a battle at the close of the millenium, and then there is a battle before the return of Christ, that makes two separate wars, but then why is there the same protagonists? The scenario from Ez. 38/39 lines up to now.

 

[brinny]

i dunno.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

No they are not the same event.

Gog Magog happens after the 1000 years.

It would appear so

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

i voted not sure. Why is Gog and Magog mentioned in Rev.? if this is a battle at the close of the millenium, and then there is a battle before the return of Christ, that makes two separate wars, but then why is there the same protagonists? The scenario from Ez. 38/39 lines up to now.

Good point and thanks for posting

 

[Mr.Waffles]

Again.....I thank you for your view......I myself of course disagree. Any others?

I agree with that post. The Bible is clear in distinguishing between the two: one follows the second Advent of Christ, the other precedes the end of the age and is the final satanic rebellion (as per Revelations 20). The OT firmly establishes how Christ will be coming to do battle at His return (i.e. Zech.14), this is distinct from the battle that takes place in Revelations 20. They cannot be the same,as one elaborates on Christ doing battle and establishing God's theocracy, while the other is a battle that unfolds following many years of this theocracy already being established.

"And the LORD will be king over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be the only one, and His name the only one."

"When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison"

"In that day" versus "when the thousand years are complete"

I believe it is very important to distinguish between the two, as they both carry very important significances in their own respects.

I believe they are two different battles separated by that very 1000 year reign, as the scriptures say.

 

[Bible2]

LittleLambofJesus said in post #1:

Armegeddon/Gog-Magog same event?

They aren't the same event, because the gathering to Armageddon will occur at the sixth vial of wrath (Revelation 16:12-16) (near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18/Matthew 24), when unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon), the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13), and these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the armies of the world to gather together at Armageddon (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) (Revelation 16:16) in an attempt to fight and defeat YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). After gathering together at Armageddon, the armies will then travel south and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus Christ (who is YHWH: John 10:30) returns from heaven and defeats them completely (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:21-20:6).

On the other hand, the Gog/Magog attack on Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39) won't occur during the coming tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18/Matthew 24, but will occur after the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), when there will be no defensive walls or fear of attack in Israel whatsoever (Ezekiel 38:11), which is the exact opposite of today's situation, when Israel is filled with very high defensive walls and is in constant fear of attack.

At the beginning of the millennium, all present-day weapons of war will be destroyed, and they won't be allowed to be remade during the millennium (Micah 4:3-4). That's why after the millennium, the Gog/Magog armies will employ only rudimentary, wooden weapons like bows and arrows, spears, shields and clubs (Ezekiel 39:9), which, after the defeat of the Gog/Magog armies, will be able to be used as convenient firewood by the people living in Israel at that time, instead of them having to go out and collect and cut down firewood from the forest (Ezekiel 39:10).

The Gog in Revelation 20:8 is the same as in Ezekiel chapters 38-39, an individual human leader whose personal name is "Gog" (Ezekiel 38:3), who could be born near the end of the millennium, and who will be killed and buried at the end of the Gog/Magog attack (Ezekiel 39:11).

The Gog/Magog armies are defeated by fire from heaven in both accounts of the attack (Ezekiel 38:22b, Revelation 20:9b).

The Gog/Magog attack won't have to involve only the nations listed in Ezekiel chapters 38-39. Those nations could just be a sampling. For the "nations" (ethnos), or peoples, who will be involved in the Gog/Magog attack will come from all over the earth (Revelation 20:8). They will still be physically part of Jesus Christ's worldwide kingdom, still legally under his rule, just as they had been during the preceding millennium (Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2), but after the millennium they will be deceived by Satan into committing the attack (Revelation 20:7-10).

While the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur subsequent to the defeat of the Gog/Magog attack (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), nothing requires that the great white throne judgment has to happen immediately after the defeat of the attack. For there will be at least seven years (Ezekiel 39:9b) between the defeat of the Gog/Magog attack and the great white throne judgment.

While the Gog/Magog attack on Israel won't occur until after the millennium (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Israel could suffer a different attack at the start of the coming tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18/Matthew 24, which attack could result in Israel's total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17).

Jerusalem could be attacked in the future at least three times before the millennium: once near the start of the coming tribulation (Daniel 11:22), once again mid-tribulation (Daniel 11:31), and then once again at the end of the tribulation (Daniel 11:45), right before the second coming of Jesus Christ (Zechariah 14:2-21).

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LittleLambofJesus said in post #1:

I and some others are of the view they are 1 and the same event, since the Bible only mentiones 1 Great Day of the Lord God Almighty.

The day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

In the day of the Lord will occur not only the second coming (Revelation 19:7-20:3), the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), and the subsequent Gog/Magog event (Revelation 20:7-10), but also the subsequent destruction of heaven (the first heaven: the sky, the atmosphere) and the earth (the surface of the earth) (2 Peter 3:10) at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11, Revelation 21:1). And this will be followed by the creation of a new atmosphere and a new surface for the earth (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) onto which New Jerusalem, the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3), will physically descend from the third heaven (Revelation 21:2-3).

But it should be emphasized that the day of the Lord won't immediately bring the destruction of the current atmosphere and surface of the earth, because while the day of the Lord will begin at Jesus' second coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) as a thief (2 Peter 3:10a, Revelation 16:15), after his second coming he will establish his kingdom physically on the earth with the just-resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7-20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

After the 1,000 years are over, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), and after the defeat of the Gog/Magog rebellion at least seven more years will occur on the earth (Ezekiel 39:9b) before its atmosphere and surface are destroyed at the white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11). All these events, from the second coming of Jesus to the white throne judgment, will be part of the day of the Lord, because it's not a 24-hour day, but to God is like a 1,000-year "day" (cf. 2 Peter 3:8).

 

[Bible2]

Achilles6129 said in post #32:

It could be that the bow of the white rider (AC) in Revelation is a reference to the bow of Gog in Ezekiel.

Regarding the first seal (Revelation 6:1), the first of the four horsemen, on the white horse (Revelation 6:2), could represent the gospel of Jesus Christ (not Jesus himself: Acts 3:21) going forth to all the nations of the earth and victoriously saving souls. For Jesus is the rider on the white horse seen later in Revelation 19:11,13 (cf. John 1:1,14), and his gospel will be preached to all the nations of the earth during the coming tribulation (Matthew 24:14, Revelation 14:6). The bow is something that has effects far away, just as the gospel effects things far away from where it began (Luke 24:47).

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Achilles6129 said in post #32:

Eze. 39:18-20 . . . [sic, should be Eze. 38:18-20]

Rev. 16:17-19...20

Note that those passages don't require that they're the same event, for God can make the earth shake more than one time. (See the next post)

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Achilles6129 said in post #32:

Eze. 38:21 . . .

Zech. 14:3...13

Note that those passages don't require that they're the same event, for God can make every man's sword be against his brother/neighbour more than one time (cf. Exodus 32:27).

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Achilles6129 said in post #32:

Eze. 38:22 . . .

First off, we have the mention of pestilence, something also talked about in Zech. 14, with the "plague" God smites the nations with that fight at Jerusalem (Armageddon).

Note that those passages don't require that they're the same event, for God can bring pestilence/plague more than one time (cf. Exodus 9:14).

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Achilles6129 said in post #32:

Then, we have the mention of blood . . .

Note that Ezekiel 38:22 and Isaiah 34:3 don't require that they're the same event, for God can either send blood upon or cause armies themselves to bleed, more than one time (cf. Exodus 7:19, Ezekiel 32:6, Revelation 8:7, Revelation 16:4).

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Achilles6129 said in post #32:

Eze. 38:22 . . .

Rev. 11:19 . . .

Rev. 16:21

Note that those passages don't require that they're the same event, for God can bring hail more than one time (cf. Exodus 9:24).

A miraculous hail will occur three separate times during the future tribulation: first when the first trumpet sounds (Revelation 8:7), then years later when the seventh trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:15,19), and then months later at the seventh vial (Revelation 16:21). Also, after the tribulation of Revelation chapters 6-18, and the subsequent second coming (Revelation 19:7-20:3), and the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), the Gog/Magog event will occur (Revelation 20:7-10), which will end with a fiery hail coming down out of heaven (Ezekiel 38:22, Revelation 20:9), like the fiery hail that God had sent on ancient Egypt (Exodus 9:23-24), and like the fiery hail at the first trumpet of the tribulation (Revelation 8:7).

 

[Bible2]

Achilles6129 said in post #32:

"And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail." Rev. 11:19

Obviously this is the return of Jesus Christ, as proven by these next two verses:

"And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great." Rev. 16:21

"And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake;...And the kings of the earth, and the great men,...hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" Rev. 6:12...15...16-17

Actually, those will be three separate events, none of which will be the return of Jesus. For Revelation chapters 6-21 are chronological, insofar as the tribulation will begin with the events of the second through sixth seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the sixth seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the seventh seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the seven trumpets of the tribulation (Revelation 8:1-6).

Then the events of the first six trumpets in Revelation 8:7-9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the 3.5-year time period of the worldwide reign of the Antichrist will occur: this time period is shown from four different angles in Revelation chapters 11-14 (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 14:9-13). Then the seventh trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:15).

Out of the heavenly temple opening of the seventh trumpet will come the seven plagues of the seven vials of the tribulation (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5-16:1). Then the seven vials will occur (Revelation 16). Then Jesus will return and defeat the Antichrist and reign on the earth with the just-resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 19:7-20:6). Then the events of Revelation chapters 20:7-21:8 will occur in the order shown there.

Revelation is an unsealed book (Revelation 22:10), meaning that it shouldn't be difficult for Christians to understand it if they simply read it as it's written: chronologically and almost entirely literally. The few parts of it that are symbolic are almost always explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 1:20, Revelation 17:9-12), and the few symbols in Revelation that aren't explained afterward (e.g. Revelation 13:2) are usually explained elsewhere in the Bible (e.g. Daniel 7:4-7,17).

--

Regarding the various earthquakes in Revelation, the second woe/sixth trumpet earthquake (Revelation 11:13-14, cf. Revelation 9:12-13) will destroy a tenth of the city of Jerusalem (Revelation 11:8,13) and kill 7,000 people (Revelation 11:13), right after the two witnesses are resuscitated and taken up into heaven (Revelation 11:11-13).

There will be a subsequent earthquake after the seventh trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:15,19).

Then there will be another earthquake after the seventh vial is poured out (Revelation 16:17-20). Between the seventh trumpet and seventh vial, the first six vials have to occur (Revelation 16).

Before all these earthquakes, an earthquake will occur after the seventh seal is unsealed (Revelation 8:1,5) and before the first trumpet sounds (Revelation 8:7).

There will also be another, even-earlier earthquake after the sixth seal is unsealed (Revelation 6:12).

---

Regarding Revelation 6:17, the tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), whereas the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the sixth seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the sixth seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. Just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their ways to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the sixth seal of the tribulation will occur the seventh seal of the tribulation (Revelation 8:1). And out of the seventh seal of the tribulation will come the seven trumpets of the tribulation (Revelation 8:1-2). None of the events of the first six trumpets from Revelation 8 up to the end of Revelation 9 are referred to by John as being God's wrath. Also, it doesn't say that any of those events will be directed only at the unsaved; all those events could affect mankind in general, both the saved and the unsaved.

The events of the fifth trumpet will be the work of a swarm of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the events of the sixth trumpet will be the work of a huge army of weird horse-like beings led by four fallen angels previously bound at the river Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the six trumpets of Revelation chapters 8-9, this could simply be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy one-third of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause one-third of the angels to be cast down to the earth for good (Revelation 12:4,9).

God allows saved people to be affected by the wrath of Satan (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 2:10), knowing that even if they're killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but even gain (Philippians 1:21,23, 2 Corinthians 5:8).

The events of the first six trumpets from Revelation 8 up to the end of Revelation 9 will all happen before the start of the 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian (Satanic) reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-18). And the events of Revelation chapters 8-9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what Satan could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then he could claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make mankind suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind. In this way, Satan could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the seven plagues of the seven vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly temple opening of the seventh trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5-16:1). The seven vials of God's wrath will then be poured out upon the followers of the Antichrist as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7) during the prior 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5,7,10, Revelation 14:12-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation on the earth just for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22) and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). People in the church will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4, 2 Timothy 4:2-4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). People in the church will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 13:15b, Revelation 20:4).

And all of this, of course, will be the wrath of Satan against the church (Revelation 12:17), not the wrath of God against the church. For the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath does come subsequently in the seven vials (Revelation 16), the final stage of the tribulation, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath none of the vials of God's wrath will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth during that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30) and then marry the obedient portion of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, cf. Matthew 25:1-13) in the clouds, before the obedient portion of the church mounts white horses and comes back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he brings the second-coming wrath of God upon the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21).

After that, Jesus and the obedient portion of the just-resurrected church (including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist) will be on the earth ruling the surviving unsaved nations with a rod of iron for 1,000 years (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2). During that time, Jesus will have to employ his wrath against the surviving unsaved nations in order to bring them into forced submission to him (Zechariah 14:16-19, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2).

After the 1,000 years are over, the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-9, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), but it will be defeated by God's wrath against it (Ezekiel 38:19-23, Revelation 20:9b). After the defeat of the Gog/Magog rebellion, the earth will remain in existence for at least seven more years (Ezekiel 39:9b). After those at least seven more years are over, the white throne judgment will occur, in which all the unsaved of all times will be resurrected and judged and cast into God's eternal wrath of the lake of fire and brimstone (Revelation 20:11-15, Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46).

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Achilles6129 said in post #32:

Eze. 39:17-20 . . .

Rev. 19:17-18...21

Note that those passages don't require that they're the same event, for it's common for birds to eat at human corpses lying on a battlefield after any battle, before they can be buried.

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Achilles6129 said in post #32:

Eze. 39:22

Ezekiel 39:22 means that near the end of the (safe time of the) millennium (Ezekiel 38:11b), the mortal Israelites living on the earth will have become complacent and backslidden away from God (Ezekiel 39:26, Ezekiel 39:7). So after the millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), as a punishment God will then let them be taken into captivity (Ezekiel 39:23-29) during the Gog/Magog time (Ezekiel 38:11-13). God will then bring judgment against Gog/Magog, and the mortal Israelites will return to being faithful to God (Ezekiel 39:21-29).

 

[Bible2]

the.Sheepdog said in post #38:

Psalms 83

If Psalms 83 wasn't referring to a threat against Israel in the time of Asaph, but to some future event, it may not happen until the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel chapters 38-39), which won't happen until after the millennium (Revelation 20:7-10).

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the.Sheepdog said in post #38:

They will likely attack as result of Israels attack on the Iranian nuke facilities.

It should be pointed out that a senior IDF officer told the Israeli cabinet last fall that the IDF doesn't have the ability to hit the Iranian nuclear program in a "meaningful way". That could be because some of the key Iranian nuclear facilities are buried so deep underground, no bombs dropped from the air can get to them. The only way to end Iran's nuclear weapons program is for some country to send ground forces into Iran which can force their way down into the facilities and blow them up with hand-placed plastic explosives.

But there are so many different facilities scattered in so many different places across Iran, it would take an all-out ground invasion of Iran to be able to reach all the facilities, and also to take out Iran's extremist regime, which if it isn't removed will simply rebuild any facilities which are destroyed.

But, in an awful irony, the preparations for an all-out ground war against Iran, to prevent the destruction of Israel by Iranian nukes, could result in the destruction of Israel during a different war, by the very ground forces which had been meant to invade Iran.

One way this war could happen is that the U.S. could build up the Iraqi Army until it's huge enough and well-equipped enough to serve as a proxy army (for the U.S. and Israel) for an all-out ground invasion of Iran (to end Iran's nuclear weapons program and extremist regime). As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall some of the former Baathist military hierarchy to run the Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly. And if the current Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, the CIA and the Mossad could then help the Baathists (who see non-Arab Iran as an enemy of Arab autonomy) to take back complete control of Iraq via a coup d'etat.

To help get the Iraqi masses and the world behind the idea of an all-out Iraqi invasion of Iran, false-flag operations could be managed by the CIA and the Mossad by which it will be made to seem that (non-Arab, Persian) Iran is attacking the Iraqi Sunni Arabs and their little children terroristically with "dirty bombs" made from Iranian-enriched uranium, so that the Iraqi Arab masses will become enraged and begin to call for all-out retaliation against (what they could call) "the vile Persians", and the world could see an Iraqi invasion of Iran as being completely justified by self-defense.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel (led by a false Messiah) could destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the third holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, to prepare the site for the building of a third Jewish temple. This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran and instead turn and send their vast army against tiny Israel, completely defeating it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

But this would not be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat Egypt (Daniel 11:15), the regime of which (even if there's some ostensible change in Egypt) the Baathists could see as still being a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as being a colony of the U.S. The ultimate aim of Baathism is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free of all foreign hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the Baathist Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles and all of Hezbollah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Tiny Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from three directions at the same time, with tens of thousands of missiles raining down on its cities and military bases, and thousands of Iraqi tanks (meant to defeat huge Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its tiny sliver of land completely overrun, and sees its defeat as imminent, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran and other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that it could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that a fourth of the world could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics. This could fulfill the horrible war which will begin the coming tribulation, which war will, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, end up killing a fourth of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The great sword of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

After an Iraqi Baathist General who could lead the defeat and occupation of Israel and Egypt mysteriously disappears from the scene (Daniel 11:19), the Antichrist, who could be an Arab, could arise peacefully out of Lebanon (from the modern city of Tyre: Ezekiel 28:2, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and he could take up the mantle of Baathism and vow to (in his words) "complete the great work of Arab liberation and unification".

The first thing the Antichrist could do once he's given control (Daniel 11:21) of a Baathist confederation of Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and a "United Palestine" (i.e. a defeated Israel), is to perform a very small and localized attack against an army of ultra-Orthodox Jews holed up in the walled Old City of Jerusalem and led by a false ultra-Orthodox Jewish Messiah (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22). They could have managed to hold off the first Baathist attack even as it overran the rest of Israel, because the walled Old City of Jerusalem is considered holy to the Muslims, and so it's not to be bombarded or destroyed. The Antichrist could manage in some way to take the Old City without doing it much harm.

Then, instead of executing all the ultra-Orthodox Jews and their false Messiah, the Antichrist will do an amazing thing: he will make a peace treaty with them (Daniel 11:23); he will "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false Messiah (Daniel 9:26a), permitting them to keep a third Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem, and to keep control of the Old City, for at least seven more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there.

By this peace treaty, the Antichrist could present himself to the world as (in his words): "A reasonable man, a man of peace. I am no Hitler. I do not desire a second Holocaust. I am willing to give the religious Jews in the Old City seven years to show that they are willing to live peacefully with others, that they are different than the Zionist Jews who have just destroyed the world with their nuclear weapons".

And if the Antichrist gets flak from his fellow Baathists for letting the ultra-Orthodox Jews keep the Old City, he could explain to them privately that (in his words) "It's all a temporary ruse, meant to keep world opinion off guard while we consolidate our position". The Baathists could consolidate their position by becoming so well dug-in, and so well equipped and advised militarily by the Russians (in the name of "Arab self-determination"), that a U.S. counter-attack to "restore" (i.e. to take back) Israel and Egypt could fail, and leave the Baathists in control, and in a position to extend their power over all the rest of the Arab nations.

For if the Baathists defeat Israel, they will be hailed by the Arab masses as magnificent heroes, so that the Baathists could have no problem persuading the Arab masses to support them. And the Baathists could justify their defeat of the Egyptian military regime, and then their subsequent defeat of other regimes such as in Jordan, by railing against them as being (what they could call):

"These vile cronies of the Americans. These cronies pretended to be for the Arab people while in fact they were taking American bribes in the billions, completely selling out our Palestinian brothers to the endless cruelties of the Zionist occupation, and keeping you, the great majority of the Arab people, in poverty. These cronies, like the Zionists themselves, were the American bulwarks against our glorious Arab unification and return to world power. Join now with us, the Baathists, that we might bring about the long-awaited Arab Renaissance, the long-awaited Arab Resurrection [the Arab word 'Baath' can mean 'Renaissance' and 'Resurrection'], that we Arabs might all rise up together and unite, from Oman to Morocco, into one great United Arab States, one great Arab Empire, shaking off completely all the shackles of the West, placed upon us so long ago, and return to our former glory as we had during the Middle Ages, when we were far superior to the West".

The Baathists could also rail against the kings and sheikhs of the Arab Gulf States for (in their words) "hoarding the huge oil wealth given by Allah to all the Arabs, and keeping the Arab masses in poverty and subjugation to Western interests". The Baathists are socialist, and so could call for the distribution of the Arab oil wealth to the Arab masses (Daniel 11:24). In this way, and by their defeat of Israel, the Baathists could easily turn the masses to their side in every Arab nation.

During the first few years of the peace treaty, the Antichrist could employ Baathism as the means by which he will gradually and peacefully put together a United Arab States, or Arab Union, stretching from Oman to Morocco. Once he has accomplished this, he could then begin to downplay Baathism and start speaking of "world peace and the unity of mankind". He could convince an oil-thirsty European Union to let the oil-rich Arab Union join it, thereby forming a massive Mediterranean Union, which he could manage to peacefully gain control of and use as his base of power to eventually exert his hegemony over the entire earth (Revelation 13:7b).

Then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break it, attack the third Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices offered in front of it, and sit in the temple and proclaim himself God (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:4). He will then rule the whole earth by the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon: Revelation 12:9) for 3.5 years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14), or 1,260 days (Revelation 12:6).

The return of Jesus Christ from heaven (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11-21, 1 Thessalonians 4:16) may not occur immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign are over, but could occur 75 days later, on the 1,335th day after the Antichrist and his followers set up the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place of the Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15). The 75 days could be taken up by the vials of God's wrath which will be poured out on the worshippers of the Antichrist (Revelation 16).

When Jesus returns he will completely defeat the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and the False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, 2 Thessalonians 2:8), and he will have Satan bound in the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:1-3). Then Jesus and the just-resurrected church (including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist) will reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

*******

Some possible objections to the Baathist war scenario outlined above:

1. "Wouldn't the Baathists be deterred from attacking, by Israel's nukes?"

Even though Iraq and Syria know of Israel's nuclear weapons and its tendency to retaliate in huge measure against attacks, Iraq and Syria could still decide to make an all-out attack against Israel, for a couple of reasons. First, by that time Iran could have successfully built (or secretly purchased from North Korea) and tested its first nuclear weapon, and have claimed to have built a few more to (in its words) "serve solely for defensive purposes against Israel's nuclear threat". Iraq and Syria could then think that Israel won't use its nuclear weapons against them, even if they do attack Israel with all their conventional forces, because Israel would then have to fear Iran retaliating against Israel with nuclear weapons.

Second, the destruction of the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque could so enrage the rank and file of the (Muslim) Iraqi and Syrian Armies that they could demand an immediate invasion of Israel, and threaten an all-out revolt against their generals if their generals refuse to lead them in the attack. Fearing for their own lives at the hands of their own soldiers, the generals could initiate the attack against Israel, figuring that even if Israel goes ahead and nukes Baghdad and Damascus in retaliation for the defeat of Israel, by that time the Iraqi and Syrian armies will all be in Israel, out of harm's way from Israel's nukes, for Israel isn't going to nuke its own land.

But what good would it do the Baathists to gain "Palestine" and Egypt while losing Baghdad and Damascus to Israeli nukes? The Baathists could figure that the loss of Baghdad and Damascus (which they could evacuate ahead of time) is worth it in order to completely defeat Israel and Egypt, thereby removing the very foundation of U.S. hegemony over the Arab world. And by the time the U.S. makes its counter-attack to "restore" (i.e. take back) Israel and Egypt, the Baathists could have become so well dug-in, and so well equipped and advised militarily by the Russians (in the name of "Arab self-determination"), that the U.S. counter-attack could fail, and leave the Baathists in control, and in a position to extend their power over all the rest of the Arab nations.

(Continued in next post)

 

[Bible2]

(Continued from prior post)

2. "Wouldn't the Israeli Air Force be able to take out any forces streaming toward Israel?"

The Israeli Air Force could be unable to hit enough of the massive Iraqi invading force to prevent the tiny territory of Israel from being overrun. For between Baghdad and Israel is basically flat desert across which massive numbers of Iraqi tanks, armored personnel carriers and rapid-fire, rapidly-moving tracked howitzers could stream west toward Israel in wide and staggered formations which Israel's Air Force could have difficulty taking out quickly. And interspersed liberally among the Iraqi forces could be large numbers of highly-mobile Iraqi SAM units which could manage to take out most of Israel's Air Force as it's attacking the Iraqi forces.

Any Iraqi force configuration which the U.S. will make sure is capable of surviving all of Iran's air and surface defenses and overrunning Iran's relatively huge territory could have no problem with surviving Israel's air and surface defenses at least to the point of still being able to overrun the tiny territory of Israel.

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3. "What about the U.S. forces in Iraq, or Kuwait?"

There could be no U.S. forces in Iraq when the war happens (they've already vacated Iraq, and might never return). And even if they do return before the war happens, they, just as the U.S. forces in Kuwait, would have a hard time justifying to the Iraqi masses the U.S.'s killing of Iraqi troops (starting on their way across the desert to defeat Israel).

Also, if the Iraqi Army basically vacates Iraq in order to defeat Israel (with a promise from Israel-hating Iran not to invade Iraq in the meantime), then if all the U.S. forces in Kuwait (and any which may have returned to Iraq) went chasing westward after the Iraqi Army to attack and weaken it before it reaches Israel, the U.S. would have to fear Iran invading and occupying a then completely-defenseless Iraq (which occupation Iran could justify by saying that it's just there to defend the Iraqi masses from any retaliation by U.S. forces until the Iraqi Army can return from its defeat of Israel), not to mention that it would also leave the U.S.'s own flank in Kuwait dangerously exposed to an Iranian invasion and occupation.

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4. "Wouldn't the U.S. be able to counter-attack with its forces in the West and restore Israel and Egypt?"

If the Baathists defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt, the U.S. could begin a counter-attack to "restore" (i.e. take back) Israel and Egypt by attempting a huge amphibious assault on Egypt, only to see its invasion force cut to shreds in the sea by tens of thousands of rockets and missiles fired from shore, resulting in the loss of something like 30,000 U.S. military personnel in a single day.

This could cause a huge uproar among the U.S. public, which could cry out: "What are we doing over there? Who cares about Egypt? And why in the world do the Israelis have to live in that awful region surrounded by so many hateful and powerful enemies? Let all the Israelis come over here to America and live in freedom and peace with us. Why should any more of our precious young men and women be slaughtered over this madness in the Middle East?" And so the U.S. could withdraw from attempting any more counter-attacks to "restore" Israel and Egypt. Also, a bankruptcy of the U.S. government at this same time because of a massive run on the U.S. dollar after its disastrous failure in the counter-attack could render the U.S. simply unable for a time to finance any more huge military adventures overseas.

The U.S. could instead blockade the Baathists with its Navy and call an emergency session of the United Nations Security Council to address the situation. But Russia and China could veto any votes to send in U.N. forces, saying "What right does the world have to interfere in this act of Arab self-determination? How is Arab Iraq and Syria invading Arab Palestine and Egypt to establish a free union of Arabs any different than the American North invading the American South during the American Civil War to establish a free union of Americans? Should the U.N. invade the U.S. to restore the Confederacy? And how is the Arabs throwing the Jews off their ancestral land any different than the U.S. throwing the American Indians off their ancestral lands? Should the U.N. invade the U.S. to restore the American Indians to their ancestral lands?"

The U.S. could then turn to the U.N. General Assembly, only to have its spokesman hooted and shouted from the podium by a world that is jealous of America's power: "Ha! Ha! Great America is defeated! And no one wants to help it restore its hegemony in the Middle East!"

The U.S. could then turn to NATO, only to have the Europeans turn down its request to send the armies of Europe (as they could say) "into the jaws of death, and for what?"

Russia and China, seeing America's isolation, could then send in military "advisors" into an ever-expanding "United Arab States" and shore it up with massive amounts of military hardware and training. Oil-thirsty China could do so in exchange for cheap oil, and oil-rich Russia could sell its military hardware in exchange for huge amounts of cash (and just to be able to thumb its nose at a defeated U.S. and keep the U.S. from taking back hegemony over the Middle East).

Ultimately, after the Baathists have completed taking control of the entire Arab Middle East and North Africa, the U.S. could find itself completely blocked out of those regions and all of their oil, but could say that it's those regions that are blockaded by the huge U.S. Navy. To get around the U.S. naval blockade, China could lay an oil pipeline from the Middle East to a point on the coast of the Indian Ocean (where oil tankers could get the oil) beyond the blockade. (Also, if most of the U.S. Navy gets deployed to blockade the huge region controlled by the Baathists, China could see that as the time for it to make an all-out attempt to restore Taiwan to mainland Chinese control, and also to take control of every disputed island -- and every oil and gas-rich undersea territory -- in the South China Sea.)

Russia could get around the U.S. naval blockade by sending into the Middle East and North Africa any military hardware sales it would have delivered by ship, by delivering them instead via rail and truck crossing the Caucasus and Iran. And Europe could get around the blockade and obtain oil from the Middle East and North Africa by building a pipeline across the Bosporus, and possibly even by digging a pipeline tunnel under the Strait of Gibraltar.

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5. "Wouldn't God letting the state of Israel be ended by the Baathists break his promises?"

No, God's promises won't be broken, even if the Baathist scenario comes to pass. For just as God allowed the ancient state of Israel to be ended by the Babylonians in 586 BC, but then restored the state of Israel in 538 BC; and just as God then allowed the state of Israel to be ended again by the ancient Romans in 70 AD, but then restored the state of Israel again in 1948 AD; so God could allow the state of Israel to be ended again by the Baathists at the start of the coming tribulation, but then restore the state of Israel again at the second coming of Jesus Christ, which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31).

Jesus Christ's kingdom is Israel (John 12:13b-15, John 1:49b, John 19:19, Luke 22:30). That's why at his second coming, he will sit on the earthly throne of David (Luke 1:32, Isaiah 9:7) and restore the kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21). Jesus is, in his humanity, the son of David (Matthew 1:1, Matthew 21:15-16, Romans 1:3), of the house of David (Luke 1:69). So at Jesus' return he will restore the tabernacle, the house, of David (Isaiah 16:5, Amos 9:11), to its royal glory (2 Samuel 5:12), which it had lost (2 Kings 17:21a), and fulfill the prophecy and prayer of 2 Samuel 7:16-29.

And Jesus will also bring salvation to all the unbelieving elect Jews of the house of David, for they (along with all other unbelieving elect Jews) will come into faith in Jesus when they see him at his second coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Zechariah 13:1,6, Romans 11:26-31). And so they will become part of the church at that time, for there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

During the millennium, which will begin after Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7-20:6), Gentile nations will come up to seek the returned Jesus ruling the whole earth (Zechariah 8:22, Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11) upon the restored throne of David (Isaiah 9:7) in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 2:1-4, Zechariah 14:8-11,16-19). And the physically resurrected church will reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).

For all those in the church who are genetic Jews remain Israel (Romans 11:1), and all those in the church who are genetic Gentiles have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9b,12b, 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary because all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, 1 Corinthians 11:25, 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9b,12b).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus Christ (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

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6. "Didn't Iraq fail to defeat Iran the last time?"

Yes, but the U.S. could build up a Baathist Iraqi Army until it's much more powerful than it was under (Baathist) Saddam Hussein, to the point where the U.S. could become convinced that another stalemate-war (like in the 1980s) between a Baathist Iraq and a theocratic Iran will be avoided, and that Iraq will be able to completely overrun and occupy Iran. (But then Baathist Iraq could decide not to invade Iran at all, but to turn and defeat Israel and Egypt instead.)

*******

Some possible objections to the Baathist, Arab political unity scenario outlined above:

1. "Isn't there no political unity, but only much divisiveness, in the Arab world?"

There's no unity now, when the Arab masses are unnaturally divided by rival military dictatorships, many supported by the U.S. and Israel. But all the current political divisiveness in the Arab world could be overcome if Baathism is able to ignite Arab nationalism as the cause celebre among the Arab masses, who could overthrow any Arab governments insistent on keeping the Arab world splintered up into petty, political fiefdoms. Take out the different dictatorships and replace them with one popular, charismatic Arab-nationalist Baathist dictator (i.e. the Antichrist) who distributes the Arab oil wealth to the Arab masses (Daniel 11:24), and you'll get political unity in the Arab world in a heartbeat.

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2. "Isn't the Arab world hopelessly divided by religion (i.e. Sunnis vs. Shiites), killing its own without batting an eyelid?"

The beauty of Baathism (from a Baathist's point of view) is that it downplays religion and focuses on Arab nationalism. The Baathists could point to Sunni vs. Shiite terrorism to show that religious extremism is only hurting the Arabs themselves, and that the Arabs need to assert religious moderation across the board. Almost all Arabs are already religiously moderate; they're just too scared of the religious extremists to speak out against extremism. But if the Baathists squash the extremists militarily, the Arabs can unite politically under Arab nationalism and a moderate Islam into one powerful United Arab States, regardless of the majority religious sects within its various states.

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3. "Isn't Arab unity and power impossible because they aren't Western thinkers, they don't have Western intellects?"

The Arabs won't have to become Western thinkers (in the sense of embracing democracy or women's rights) in order to become united, like they were united at times during the Middle Ages, when for centuries Arab intellectual endeavors far excelled those in Europe. The Arabs are in no sense stupid intellectually. Their masses have just in recent centuries been suppressed intellectually, not educated in any matters beyond religion. Dubai shows that, once educated in a modern fashion, the Arab mind is more than capable of developing a modern, technological society like that in the West. Imagine the level of development in Dubai spread across the Arab world, from Oman to Morocco, and you can begin to grasp the potential power of a United Arab States.

 

[Bible2]

the.Sheepdog said in post #38:

Rapture of the Church should be in here somewhere I beleive.

Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a rapture before or shortly (from man's point of view) after the tribulation begins. Instead, the Bible makes clear that the rapture won't occur until immediately after the entire tribulation is over. For Matthew 24:30-31 is referring to the same second coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which is referring to the same second coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17. Matthew 24:29 shows that these things won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18. That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' second coming and the resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7-20:6, 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16).

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church and the Antichrist sits in a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem and declares himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15-31, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place of a third Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' return, his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30, Mark 13:26), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:27), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:4-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30) and then marry in the clouds the obedient portion of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, cf. Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" (Revelation 3:5), before they mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the unsaved armies of the world (Revelation 19:15-21).

Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the just-resurrected and married obedient portion of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9, 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient portion of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of partial preterism or full preterism or historicism or spiritualism) could leave some believers less prepared mentally to go through the coming tribulation.

The Bible gives us clear warning ahead of time about everything that we're going to have to face during the coming tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation 1:3, Revelation 22:16) of Matthew 24/Revelation chapters 6-18, so that we can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Mark 13:5-6,21-23, Luke 21:8, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that we can be better prepared mentally to endure the coming tribulation with patience and faith unto the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13), and not get so mad at God over our and our loved ones' awful physical suffering during the coming tribulation (cf. Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21) that we wrongly employ our free will to depart from the faith (1 Timothy 4:1, 2 Timothy 4:4, 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Luke 8:13, Matthew 24:9-13), to the ultimate loss of our salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6, 2 Timothy 2:12, Mark 8:35-38, Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Hebrews 10:38-39).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If Psalms 83 wasn't referring to a threat against Israel in the time of Asaph, but to some future event, it may not happen until the Gog/Magog event (Ezekiel chapters 38-39), which won't happen until after the millennium (Revelation 20:7-10).

Interesting post. Thanks