Armageddon and gog and Magog are Different Battles over 1,000 years apart

[Just The Facts]

Hi

It is a common misconception that the Battle of Armageddon and the battle of Gog and magog are the Same battle. THIS IS NOT TRUE……………The Battle of Armageddon and Gog and Magog are not the Same Battle.

As we see in Armageddon it is the Dragon..(IE Satan)………….the beast (IE the Destroyer the King of the pit) and the False prophet that gathers the armies………………….to battle against The kings of the East.

13: And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14: For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15: Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16: And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

We even get a description of the Armies

16: And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. 17: And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. 18: By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. 19: For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.

Above is the authors attempt to describe a modern Army. People riding things that spew fire and smoke and brimstone.

We are also told Were they Gather

16: And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. (which Means Mt. Megiddo)

Here is a map

I have circled Megiddo it is north of Jerusalem by about a hundred miles.

At this Battle the Beast is capture and tossed in the lake of Fire.

Rev 19:20: And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The kings of the Earth and their Armies are Destroyed……………

Rev 19:21: And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Then the Devil is Bound and cast into the pit.

Rev 20:1: And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2: And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Thrones are placed and the Saints rule from holy Jerusalem. We know this is when Holy Jerusalem comes Down for it is the city of the Saints that is there in verse 8 of Chapter 20:

Rev 20:4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Jesus restores the land……………….During this 1,00 years Jesus and the Saints teach this from Holy Jerusalem(the mountain of the Lord)

Isaiah 2:2: And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3: And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.4: And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Which is confirmed in rev 22:

2: In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

So we have all the Armies of the World destroyed The Beast in the Lake of fire……the Devil bound so he can not deceive the nations to gather for war. The Nations no longer war and learn war they have been healed of the Lies of the Devil.

Now let us look at the battle of Gog and Magog

Rev 20:8: And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9: And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:

Well the City of the saints is holy Jerusalem. So in this battle the armies surround Jerusalem they do not gather hundreds of miles away at Mt. Megiddo.

Now as we know Jesus had restored the Land from the battle of Armageddon and the Wars of the AC. He has risen the Saints and the Great multitude which we know are from every nation and tongue. So do we see this as restored land in Ezekiel 38: with people from every Nation in it.

38:8: After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

So here we see the people gathered from many Nations in a Land restored from War. What else are we told about this land.

11: And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

Well we see they are people AT REST………………….that is the Sabbath day rest of the 1,000 years. 6,000 years (IE six days) of history followed by 1,000 years (IE one Day) of Sabbath rest for the World.

We also see they live in unwalled villages. GOD IS AMAZING so many try and apply this To Modern Israel…………..So does Modern Israel live without walls

here is a map of the walls of modern Israel

Well that answers that question doesn’t it…………..



So what about the army of Gog what are they like do they issue fire and brimstone from their mouths.

Ezekiel 38:4: And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords: 5: Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:

No they do not have such modern weapons can the things that carry them spew fire from their mouths……..No just swords and shields and helmets.

So when does Gog and magog come down on the city of the Saints

7: And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,8: And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle:

Well that is VERY CLEAR isn’t it………..you have to deny God’s plain words and turn to doctrines of men to not see this basic truth. It is after the 1,000 years of Peace………….When the “Sabbath Day” of rest for the world is over.

I think I have shown without doubt that Armageddon and Gog and Magog are different battles and that they are over 1,000 years apart. Armageddon at the start of the 1,000 years of peace and Gog and Magog at the end

 

[Brain Damage]

I can sort of agree with you on that , but there's still a few things that bother me about this view.

For example , Ezekiel 39:22 - 22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day forward.

I would have thought that they would have known this during the 1000 years...

 

[albertmc]

All of this is correct if - and only if - you assume the Book of Revelation is written in chronological order from start to finish. If, however, you take the view that, like much of apocalyptic literature, it is not then this is not necessarily the case. The parallels between chapters 12 and 20 are uncanny and they likely refer to the same things. In fact, Revelation can be neatly divided into seven sections (doevtailing nicely with the overall theme featureing the number 7) each dealing with the time between Christ's two advents and parallelling each other nicely - although each takes a different outlook.

The first section (the letters to the seven churches) gives a general outlook on conditions existing within the Church from start to finish. Later sections give a general overview of the Church age but concentrate on particular areas within it with later sections going further along inconcentrating on later portions of the age. So one section will take the story up to a point and then there will be a backpeddling as another section will rehash - usually from a different view- and take the story a little further. The overall effect is that of concentrating on a point on a wheel moving forward. The overall movement is forward but with a the occasional circling back. We see this clearly in Chapters 12 & 20 in the symbolism employed where Satan the dragon is cast down from heaven/thrown into the Abyss, unable to accuse the brethren/bound, and in each his time is short. The millennia is understood in chapter 20 to be the age of the Church and so Gog/Magog and Armageddon are looked upon as the same battle.

BTW, Armageddon is the only natural battlefield in the area that is large enough for major warring armies to fit - so the location is obvious. It is said that when Napoleon saw Armageddon (before his rise to power) he declared it the greatest place for a battle he had ever seen.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi albertmc

Well I do not see rev as written in order.

1-5 ////Introduction

6 ////the Whole Course of events from Jesus on Earth to his second Coming.

7-11 //// the Great Tribulation/wrath Heavenly view

12 Recap of Jesus birth to the Destruction of Jerusalem

13 //// Description of Rome and the formation of a false kingdom of God.

14 -16////////Great Tribulation/Wrath Earthly view

17 - 18//////////In depth on the harlot and the kingdoms she rules…… her destruction……………… which happens during the great Tribulation/Wrath or during chapter 7-11 and 14-16.

19-20 //// Defeat of the beast from the pit the capture of the Devil......................the reading of the book of life.......which is the First Resurrection and Saints ruling from Holy Jerusalem for 1,000 years..............on to Gog and Magog and the reading of the book of Works.

21 and Part of 22//////////The description of the city of the Saints that arrives at the first resurrection and is on Earth during the 1,000 years.

Rest of 22//////////////////// Closing.

However I also do not see chapter 12 and 20 as the Same thing............they are clearly different

Chapter 12 is a recap of events from Jesus birth to the destruction of Jerusalem. It has no mention of Gog and magog or of the Devil being bound. there is no resurrection of the saints in chapter 12 either. The chapters are sooooooo dissimilar I can't see how anyone could seem them as the same.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Brain



I almost missed your post

Good question

So we need to ask ourseleves is Jesus return and setting up of the Kingdom and the 1,000 years all part of one day to God.

IE is it all Judgement day.

the Answer is yes……………. this is all one day to God. The raising of the Saints at morning Light Gog and magog and the Judgment of the rest at noonday judgement.

Just as God says

3: Trust in the LORD, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed. 4: Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. 5: Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass. 6: And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.

First the righteous at day break and then latter in the day Judgment of the Evil.

So on judgment day the House of israel will know from that day forward.

 

[ikester]

behold the tabernacle of God is with men and he will dwell with them....this is the holy city / new Jerusalem...what else happens....God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes and there shall be no more death...neither sorrow..nor crying..neither shall there be any more pain..for the former things are passed away.......

point made....the new Jerusalem comes after the devil is cast in the lake......

 

[ikester]

gog and magog happen before the return of Jesus....they even have to hire people to clean up the mess....could be for nuclear or chemical/biological reasons.....

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Ikster

No Point not made.

Holy jerusalem comes at the start of the 1,000 years not at the end.

Are you saying Jesus is not God?

3: And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

When Jesus comes at the start of the 1,000 years is Not God with men forever more. Is Not Holy jerusalem the bride ...................is the joining of holy jerusalem and Jesus not the wedding.......is this not the saints reward.

Does not jesus say he left to prepare a plce for us in God's Tent or tabernacle. When we are risen it is to this tent or God's house that we enter.

24: And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

So what does that mean they walk in the light of it.

Well it means this

2: And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3: And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4: And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

these Nations come up to Holy jerusalem to be taught by jesus and the Saints.

Rv:5:10: And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

That is reign from their thrones which are in holy jersualem and which are placed at the Beginning of the 1,000 years.

4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:

At the end of the Day death is cast into the lake of fire.

14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

It all happens on judgment day. The first resurrection the Second Death all on judgment Day.

Holy jerusalem comes at the start of judgment day not the end.

 

[ikester]

sorry JFT...my kjv says John saw a new heaven and earth..for the first heaven and earth are passed away...then he saw the new Jerusalem coming down....simple....yes Jesus reigns for 1000yrs...satan is bound..but loosed a little season....kicked in the fire...then all things become new...heaven... earth...Jerusalem...can't put Ch..21 any other way....

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi ikster

Well you have to put it another way because too many things in Chapter 21 are repeats of what is said in chapter 20:

Quote
gog and magog happen before the return of Jesus.
End Quote

No rev 20 is clear they happen AFTER the 1,000 years

you know the 1,000 year reign on Earth With jesus and the Saints

4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Rv:5:10: And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

then When the !,00 years reign with Jesus on Earth is over...

7: And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8: And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle:

It does not get any clearer then that.......................evreything else is the doctrines of men.

Does Jesus dwell with the Apostles and those of the first resurrection on Earth for 1,000 years? YES or NO

So what is it they rule over................Lets see from the Wrath of God we have ..................the seas are dead everything in them dead..................the earth is burned up.................. every island and every mountain shaken to the ground.

So what.................. when Jesus and the Saints rule they rule a devestated Earth.

of Course not Jesus makes all things new.

3: And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

Who is it we are Teachers for............................. each other.

No We teach the Nations this

2: And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3: And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4: And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Jesus sits on his throne at the First resurrection...he reigns from that throne...........

6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So What does he reign from the couch and not the Throne........is not that throne is in Holy jerusalem

3: And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

 

[Kingdom_Come]

All of this is correct if - and only if - you assume the Book of Revelation is written in chronological order from start to finish.

I agree with you in that I do not think Revelation as a whole is written in chronological order. I rather think John is seeing many of the same events unfold in different locations and from different perspectives. To better understand the timing we must look for the events which correlate with one another. That being said I also agree that the final battle where Satan gathers forces from Gog and Magog happens at the end of the 1000 years and that the battle of Armageddon happens at the beginning. There is enough textual reference given in Revelation to draw this conclusion. We can see in Chapter 19 that the beast and his armies gather to oppose Christ. We also see that he and the false prophet are taken and cast alive into the lake of fire. This happens at the conclusion of the battle of Armageddon.



Now as we head into Chapter 20 we see the description of what transpires afterwards. While the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire Satan is only bound in a pit for the 1000 years. At the end of this time period he is released and goes out and deceives the nations in the four quarters of the earth and gather them to the last battle. They are destroyed. Now we get to verse 10 which is key.

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Here we see that the beast and the false prophet are already in the lake of fire when Satan is cast into it. Thus we can see the separation between Satan’s end at his last battle and how it is separate from the end of the beast and the false prophet at their last battle. Armageddon and the final battle, involving those from Gog and Magog, happen at different times and John makes it clear they are separated by the 1000 years.

 

[albertmc]

Hi Justthefacts,

The parallels between the two sections are strong and have been noted since the days of the early Church. What I am suggesting is the book presents the drama of God's plan unfolding in seven different views with the first (Chapters 1-3) giving conditions in the Church that would endure througout time between the two advents of Christ. Later sections (chapters 4-7, Chapters 8-11, Chapters 12-14, Chapters 15-16, Chapters 17-19, and Chapters 20-22) each present the view of the same period up to a certain point and concentrate on a particular theme before the next section starts and we go back and the story is taken a little further. There are seven sections in all in keeping with the general theme of sevens. This sort of symbolism as well as the use of recapitulation is very common within the literary genre of apocalyptic writing. Each section is deliniated by its ending with a triumphant vision of Christ.

Chapers 12 and 20 begin their sections and use similar themes but the seventh section being the last will unfold the drama until the very end and concentrates the most detail on what has not been covered in earlier sections. However, inthere is the enough detail given to the recapitulation of events already covered in Chapter 12 that we can see the parallels in the symbolism employed. Remember this is apocalyptic literature and in this genre things are interpreted symbolically - that's the way the stuff works.

Looking in Chapter 12:1-5 we have:

And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery. And another portent appeared in heaven; behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems upon his heads. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven, and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to bear a child, that he might devour her child when she brought it forth; she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,

This is symbolic of Christ's first advent and the woman is symbolic of the people of God who are called her offspring - both the believers in biblical Israel and later in the Church. The first advent is not detailed in Chapter 20.

Now look at the remainder of Chapter 12 and Chapter 20

Chapter 12:

and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which to be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, but they were defeated and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world -- he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. Rejoice then, O heaven and you that dwell therein! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!" And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had borne the male child. But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with the flood. But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river which the dragon had poured from his mouth. Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.


Then in Chapters 20: 1-10

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years were ended. After that he must be loosed for a little while. Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years. And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be loosed from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, that is, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. And they marched up over the broad earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

We now see the effect of Jesus' victory on the cross. Until then, no one could enter the presence of God after death as the price had not been paid. Satan could accuse even the righteous as the blood of the New Covenant had not been shed. The righteous who clinged to this promise were in Sheol in the "bosom of Abraham" - neither thirsting nor with God. The Scriptures speak of Jesus' descent to death prior to His mighty resurrection and how He "preached to the captives". They were now set free to be with the Father. When the scripture speaks of Jesus conquering death they mean "conquer." He descended, preached the Gospel, set the believers free and ascended. His conquest meant both that the dragon no longer could accuse us because of the power of the Gospel. No longer would the word be restricted to a little haven in Judea but would find a "safe place in the wilderness" as Satan had been defeated (was cast down, was placed in the abyss) and has no power over our destiny (cannot accuse, is bound). The captives in prison are now set free and this is symbolized by the "first resurrection." Satan does not have power over our eternal destiny but he can still wage war and use his earthly allies to try to make those who are weak fall into darkness. He is powerless though to stop the spread of the Gospel as God himself shall protect the woman (the Church) so that hell will not prevail against her. The power of the Holy Spirit descending on the Church at Pentecost is symbolized by the wings of the eagle that protects her and allows her to go into the wilderness - symbolizing the Gentiles (Chapter 12) and now the Word of God will spread to the Gentiles as the nations will be deceived no more (Chapter 20). Satan can no longer prevent the spread of the Good News as he has lost his power. People get confused here and think that things are kind of bad for Satan to be bound. Isn't God losing down here? The answer is no!! We all start out on Satan's side - we all share in the sin of Adam. But now God can come and claim whomever is His elect wherever they may be. God can plunder Satan's house for His own elect. The state of the current world means nothing in eternity. This period is synbolized by 1260 days or time, times, and half a time (Chapter 12) and the thousand years (Chapter 20). It will last until the time of the Gentiles in fulfilled. Then Satan will be released and the end times scenarios detailed in earlier sections will begin. Satan will attack the Church but she wil be protected (the earth will swallow her). He will now be able to deceive the nations again (stop the spread of the Gospel to the Gentiles) and at this point the remnant of the Jews will find their Messiah. You can probably now see that the battles would then be the same. The previous section (Chapters 17-19) dealt extensively with the earthly minions of the dragon (the beast and the false prophet) and this section deals with the dragon himself. The connection is, however, made and the dragon shall end up also in the lake of fire.

I have given a barebones look here. There are whole scholarly works analyzing the laguage, the patterns in semitic Apocalyptic literature, etc. This sort of stuff does not lend itself to be read the same way as a narrative. You read it within the rules of its literary genre. The best thing I have seen at the educated layman's level is "Revelation and the end of All Things" which you can see here:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0802846602/qid=1136803555/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/103-1122214-0035037?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

God bless.

Hi albertmc

Well I do not see rev as written in order.

1-5 ////Introduction

6 ////the Whole Course of events from Jesus on Earth to his second Coming.

7-11 //// the Great Tribulation/wrath Heavenly view

12 Recap of Jesus birth to the Destruction of Jerusalem

13 //// Description of Rome and the formation of a false kingdom of God.

14 -16////////Great Tribulation/Wrath Earthly view

17 - 18//////////In depth on the harlot and the kingdoms she rules…… her destruction……………… which happens during the great Tribulation/Wrath or during chapter 7-11 and 14-16.

19-20 //// Defeat of the beast from the pit the capture of the Devil......................the reading of the book of life.......which is the First Resurrection and Saints ruling from Holy Jerusalem for 1,000 years..............on to Gog and Magog and the reading of the book of Works.

21 and Part of 22//////////The description of the city of the Saints that arrives at the first resurrection and is on Earth during the 1,000 years.

Rest of 22//////////////////// Closing.

However I also do not see chapter 12 and 20 as the Same thing............they are clearly different

Chapter 12 is a recap of events from Jesus birth to the destruction of Jerusalem. It has no mention of Gog and magog or of the Devil being bound. there is no resurrection of the saints in chapter 12 either. The chapters are sooooooo dissimilar I can't see how anyone could seem them as the same.

 

[exodus19]

again ,

some posts more acurate than others, but again so what shall it be?

if let's say you don't hear me and 3or 5 or 50 years pass, will you just replace the posts with the same posts ie repeating the same opinion? or will one of you think that " well i just read a word from john doe phd who said and now i think ch 20 is rehashing of the same ch 12 and then a week later 2015. i think john was really high when he had this dream and he might have been sleep walking when the vision came and who is this john anyway but another former alcoholic turned saint that God spoke to???????

you see how all of you get so silly on this subject?

don't you not want, in this life to know and live in the promised land and understand all, as it was written and see it played out according to prophecy?

just the facts, sometimes you are quite close to understanding timeline, but all of you get caught in some literal mess in due time, trying too hard to put so much emphasis on physical things.


When anointed, if you ever are , you will understand how simple life really is, opposed to trying to rack your brains for all the answers.

This is precisely what seperates me from you guys at this time, though you may change when you recognize my words are from the Holy Spirit, is the very fact you, as individuals are so concerned with your own selves figuring things out and being attached to the answers.

If you would only let go of you ego's and just clear your hearts from all preconceived ideas, ____it's the only way at first to hear, some of you have done 'some' reading, and try to correlate but you all, all are in are in suspended state untill messiah, is in your midst to open the seals.
do you miss that simple point? seals are opened and revealled, so are the angels who blow trumpets, go figure that still some christians envision real trumpets and angels floating in the clouds and they may appear over your home town some time __"int the future" -___ uh huh ya right! LOL

trippy stuff this revelation for you guys, but what you are doing here is a little more focused than i 've seen for the months of may through october when i danced around many different sites ultimately getting the shout out and getting my butt kicked.

kind a neet i can just hang out here, and visit,

maybe christian forums ain't so foolish after all and there having fun correlating my stuff.

the heads of these forums chow out together and know who's who, the communicate with each other about the trolls, and such.

the three letter web spies. lol

just coming in the air that's all, a good prophecy fulfillment, and publishing in many nations, in on different religions.

anyways armageddon is concurrent with the " white throne judgement " that doesn't take too much understanding and the expression on me on the cloud in 19:11 is that throne, by the way,

the white throne are those who have been given or recieved the anointing or the "new spirit", as corroborated from 19:14 wherein it says and the bride or virgins or first fruit, or first resuurected are also on "white horses" the white horses are not a physical thing like real horses but they are the garments or spirit made white.

army is always represented by horses and in this case the cloud or army that is with the messiah is the same as the one coming out of the temple, or heaven in 11:19.

in 12:1, that women is the same as 19:14 on white horses..
that is the throne or white throne that is coming .

you see first off is the throne as mentioned in ch 5 which essentially implies many people and the "white" throne refers to those who have been given white garments to wear,

but that exporession of given white garments, is not a literal one but a spiritual one

since the actuall clothing pertains to the spirit or heart being cleansed ,elsewhere written as stones made white, which ie to say spirit-souls.

this too is the same as being circumsised.

this is all verifiable and correct there are no if ands or buts, this is the simple Truth.

hear carefully.

so your homework if you have to.

if you refuse to hear this , i;m sure that if i go away and come back in four months you will all be a little closer and more accurate trying to see it all on your own.

you have choice, but you cannot advance in these latter days without me, since i must be there to confirm whoever comes.

it's just the way the scripture is written, have questions, you should

remember, Gunsmoke? "have gun will travel ", 'have 'new spirit will' be eternally free".

peace over

i'm going to my morning coffee group, it's quite interesting.

one guy played golf with t woods when he was 14 and shot 82, tiger at 4 not quite 5 shot 77. crazy isn't it?

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Albertmc

Well I tell you here and now as soon as you start looking a genre youare in deep trouble. Genre is just another term for Doctrine of men.

The book of Revelation is not hard to understand unless you make it so.

One of the Biggest problem people have with symbolic prophetic writting is they do not understand what is a symbol and what is not a symbol............the Amill doctrine you are espousing with statements like.

Quote
We now see the effect of Jesus' victory on the cross. Until then, no one could enter the presence of God after death as the price had not been paid. Satan could accuse even the righteous as the blood of the New Covenant had not been shed. The righteous who clinged to this promise were in Sheol in the "bosom of Abraham" - neither thirsting nor with God. The Scriptures speak of Jesus' descent to death prior to His mighty resurrection and how He "preached to the captives". They were now set free to be with the Father. When the scripture speaks of Jesus conquering death they mean "conquer." He descended, preached the Gospel, set the believers free and ascended. His conquest meant both that the dragon no longer could accuse us because of the power of the Gospel. No longer would the word be restricted to a little haven in Judea but would find a "safe place in the wilderness" as Satan had been defeated (was cast down, was placed in the abyss)
End Quote

This is the doctrine of men plain and simple the Devil is not in the Abyss. He roams the Earth.peter says so very clearly.

1Pt:5:8: Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

The binding of Satan so he can not deceive the Nations.HAS NOTHING to do with the word of God only being heard in judea.It is absolutly ridiculas to say Gods word was only Heard in judea. it was heard all over persia and greece and Rome. Judaism was an accepted religion in Rome. that is why Jews did not have to worry about being labled Athiests as christians were.

the Deception of the Nation is to draw them to battle revelation is clear.

3: And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

There is Satan being Bound after Armageddon.........................

Here is Stan getting out

7: And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8: And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle:

What does he do WHAT IS HIS DECEPTION..................To draw Nations to Battle.

Amill doctrine is LOST in understanding prophetic scripture because they at their own descretion they take verse and spiritualise it away. revelation has many symbols but each and every symbols is explained as such in the Bible and the Answer to what that symbol means is in the Bible.

It is like a map...................on a map you have many symbols.....................Do you ask Tom Dick or Harry what the symbols mean.............Well you could but I bet you will get lost.............................What you do is you look to the map itself there you will find the legend and it explains all of the symbols...trust the Map to explain itself and you will not get lost.........ask others what it means or let them explain symbols to you and you will get lost.

This is the essence of amill doctrine............accumulated teachers explaining symbols and verses with NO REGARD for what the book itself says these things mean.

Your attempts to show rev 12 and rev 20 as the same thing falls flat on its face in light of the Books own Explanations.

Rev 12 is the Beginning of the events…………………….rev 20 is the End of the Events.

There are so many things that you just fail to see or understand because you look through the eyes of teachers who give their own meanings to these things. Let me give you an example beside the one I have Given you.

The Beast in the pit IS NOT the Devil………………….It is the king of the Pit in Rev 9: The devil and the Beast are TWO different Beings. That is how the Devil can be roaming the Earth as Peter plainly tells us and the Beast is locked in the pit to be released on the great day and go to his perdition. The beast in the pit is the leader of the Fallen Angles that are locked in the pit……………...he is not the Devil.

2Pt:2:4: For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jude:1:6: And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

That is who is in the Pit right now Not the Devil the Devil is here on Earth roaming free looking to devour.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Exodus


Yes Yes I know your spiel comes directly form the Holy Spirits mouth through you to us.

Well God speaks Directly to me too.....................It is called his word...................and when it and you say different things I trust it and say you are just wrong.

Your posts are filled with your opinions AND ABSOLUTELY NO SCRIPTURE TO BACK A SINGLE THING YOU SAY.

So I basically ignore what you say because I am not interested in your opinion I only am interested in scriptural facts. Since you present NO SCRIPTURE......................you have no facts……..just the doctrine of men…………………and not very good doctrine at that.

First you say this

Quote
When anointed, if you ever are , you will understand how simple life really is, opposed to trying to rack your brains for all the answers.

This is precisely what seperates me from you guys at this time,
End Quote

Then you say this

Quote
maybe christian forums ain't so foolish after all and there having fun correlating my stuff.
End Quote

Quote
If you would only let go of you ego's
End Quote

Bahhahhahahahahahahhahahha Man I am on the Floor………………………Please stop I can’t take it…………………….

What separates me from you is I follow THE LAMB…………..THE WORD………………….Wherever it takes me ………………….regardless of what people say……..regardless of their spiel………………..regardless of what they accuse me of …………………even to my death.

You on the other hand follow your own doctrine your own understanding and present no scripture to back any of the for-mentioned diatribe.

In Short put up some scripture to back your contentions or run along and play with the others who believe as you do.

 

[albertmc]

Hi Justthefacts,

We may disagree on much else but we agree on this!!

As for the comments by Exodus, I'm under the impression he is just a troll looking for attention.

Hi Exodus


Yes Yes I know your spiel comes directly form the Holy Spirits mouth through you to us.

Well God speaks Directly to me too.....................It is called his word...................and when it and you say different things I trust it and say you are just wrong.

Your posts are filled with your opinions AND ABSOLUTELY NO SCRIPTURE TO BACK A SINGLE THING YOU SAY.

So I basically ignore what you say because I am not interested in your opinion I only am interested in scriptural facts. Since you present NO SCRIPTURE......................you have no facts……..just the doctrine of men…………………and not very good doctrine at that.

First you say this

Quote
When anointed, if you ever are , you will understand how simple life really is, opposed to trying to rack your brains for all the answers.

This is precisely what seperates me from you guys at this time,
End Quote

Then you say this

Quote
maybe christian forums ain't so foolish after all and there having fun correlating my stuff.
End Quote

Quote
If you would only let go of you ego's
End Quote

Bahhahhahahahahahahhahahha Man I am on the Floor………………………Please stop I can’t take it…………………….

What separates me from you is I follow THE LAMB…………..THE WORD………………….Wherever it takes me ………………….regardless of what people say……..regardless of their spiel………………..regardless of what they accuse me of …………………even to my death.

You on the other hand follow your own doctrine your own understanding and present no scripture to back any of the for-mentioned diatribe.

In Short put up some scripture to back your contentions or run along and play with the others who believe as you do.

 

[albertmc]

Genre is the acknowledgement that God used different writing styles to communicate his purpose and you understand it through the interpretation proper to that style. You do not read the poetry of the Psalms the same way as the historical books. The latter deals with history - the former uses the type of hyperbole and imagery common to the style. It is the ignorant atheists who try to prove the Bible is not inspired by pulling out so-called "contradictions of science" in the poetic imagery of the Psalms. Similarly, the Song of Solomon was not included because God wanted to extoll someone's sex life. It was communicating a message through a poetic form of writing. In the New Testament, the Gospels, Acts, and the Epistles are to be read literally because they are written in such a fashion. Revelation is not. It is written in a form of writing popular at the time in the region and is heavily reliant upon symbolism. Sorry to break the news to you, but it's just the way it is and if it were different John would not have used a style that would have led one to think otherwise. Apocalyptic uses heavy symbolism and imagery - not all of which is easily translated. Some of the imagery is translated by John and some is not.

We will have to agree to disagree. Read the book I suggested if you want to see the details. As for the symbolic interpretation, well books full of literal objects get interpreted literally - books full of symbols get interpreted symbolically. Contrary to what some say, the interpretation is not allegorical. Allegory pertains to a story that communicates a message - usually spiritual or moral - regardless of the actual truth of the events described. Parables are allegories. This is a symbolic interpretation. The symbols are translated into events that actually have and will take place in real history. Revelation is written in a peculiar form and without knowing the form - known much better in John's time - it is difficult to get a clear hold of events.

Oh, and I may not have made it clear but I did not mean to say the Beast was Satan but that he would end up in the same place as Satan.

Hi Albertmc

Well I tell you here and now as soon as you start looking a genre youare in deep trouble. Genre is just another term for Doctrine of men.

The book of Revelation is not hard to understand unless you make it so.

One of the Biggest problem people have with symbolic prophetic writting is they do not understand what is a symbol and what is not a symbol............the Amill doctrine you are espousing with statements like.

Quote
We now see the effect of Jesus' victory on the cross. Until then, no one could enter the presence of God after death as the price had not been paid. Satan could accuse even the righteous as the blood of the New Covenant had not been shed. The righteous who clinged to this promise were in Sheol in the "bosom of Abraham" - neither thirsting nor with God. The Scriptures speak of Jesus' descent to death prior to His mighty resurrection and how He "preached to the captives". They were now set free to be with the Father. When the scripture speaks of Jesus conquering death they mean "conquer." He descended, preached the Gospel, set the believers free and ascended. His conquest meant both that the dragon no longer could accuse us because of the power of the Gospel. No longer would the word be restricted to a little haven in Judea but would find a "safe place in the wilderness" as Satan had been defeated (was cast down, was placed in the abyss)
End Quote

This is the doctrine of men plain and simple the Devil is not in the Abyss. He roams the Earth.peter says so very clearly.

1Pt:5:8: Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

The binding of Satan so he can not deceive the Nations.HAS NOTHING to do with the word of God only being heard in judea.It is absolutly ridiculas to say Gods word was only Heard in judea. it was heard all over persia and greece and Rome. Judaism was an accepted religion in Rome. that is why Jews did not have to worry about being labled Athiests as christians were.

the Deception of the Nation is to draw them to battle revelation is clear.

3: And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

There is Satan being Bound after Armageddon.........................

Here is Stan getting out

7: And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8: And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle:

What does he do WHAT IS HIS DECEPTION..................To draw Nations to Battle.

Amill doctrine is LOST in understanding prophetic scripture because they at their own descretion they take verse and spiritualise it away. revelation has many symbols but each and every symbols is explained as such in the Bible and the Answer to what that symbol means is in the Bible.

It is like a map...................on a map you have many symbols.....................Do you ask Tom Dick or Harry what the symbols mean.............Well you could but I bet you will get lost.............................What you do is you look to the map itself there you will find the legend and it explains all of the symbols...trust the Map to explain itself and you will not get lost.........ask others what it means or let them explain symbols to you and you will get lost.

This is the essence of amill doctrine............accumulated teachers explaining symbols and verses with NO REGARD for what the book itself says these things mean.

Your attempts to show rev 12 and rev 20 as the same thing falls flat on its face in light of the Books own Explanations.

Rev 12 is the Beginning of the events…………………….rev 20 is the End of the Events.

There are so many things that you just fail to see or understand because you look through the eyes of teachers who give their own meanings to these things. Let me give you an example beside the one I have Given you.

The Beast in the pit IS NOT the Devil………………….It is the king of the Pit in Rev 9: The devil and the Beast are TWO different Beings. That is how the Devil can be roaming the Earth as Peter plainly tells us and the Beast is locked in the pit to be released on the great day and go to his perdition. The beast in the pit is the leader of the Fallen Angles that are locked in the pit……………...he is not the Devil.

2Pt:2:4: For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jude:1:6: And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

That is who is in the Pit right now Not the Devil the Devil is here on Earth roaming free looking to devour.

 

[Luke950]

JTF:
What do you think about the 6,000 yrs of human history followed by 1,000 yrs of Satan being locked away compared to the Creation Week in Genesis?
You probably know about 8 being the Biblical number for new beginnings, which the New Heaven and Earth would certainly be.

 

[ikester]

Let's see....Ezekiel says this war is in the latter days and the latter years....
only certain nations are involved...which by the way are Islamic...
the Lord will make himself known to Israel and many nations....
one sixth of the enemy will be spared..........
a great supper feast for the fowl will occur...feeding on the mighty men and princes' of the earth.....
the mountains will be cast down.....
does this sound like Revelation.........hmmmm.....
let's see.....during the millennium haven't the diet of animals changed...where flesh is no longer on the menu......so the great supper would be at the time of Armageddon...

Ezekiel 38 & 39 have to be before the second coming and not after the millennium....

 

[epoheno]

Bless you -

In Rev. 19:20 The beast was taken, and with him the false prophet were both cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Amil: Happens just before the GWT judgment. The Beast is Gog

Question: Israel is depicted in Ez. 38:8 as a land that has already been brought back and has been already gathered out the nations. Ez. 38:11-12 depicts Israel as dwelling safely without walls with no bars or gates. They are shown as having gotten goods of cattle, gold, and silver.

Scripture declares that Jerusalem will be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Deut. 30:1-9 Declares and predicts that Israel will be scattered throughout all the nations (fulfilled) and it also declares that ONLY IF they return to the Lord will all their soul that God will gather them again into the land.

THEN and not before, will the Lord do them good and multiply them and put their curses upon those that hated them and make them plentious in goods and cattle.
Israel has come and gone out of Jerusalem in varying numbers for hundreds of years but they are not being gathered even up to this day in any fullfilment of this prophecy because as of yet they are still in a state of rebellion against Jesus Christ.

Jesus told them "Your house is left unto desolate and I will see you no more until you cry out blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

This seige upon Israel by Gog in Ez. 38-39 assumes that position has already been achieved as described here:

And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

And Ez. 38:14:

In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?

One might say that is a minor distinction not worthy of attention but it places this war outside the perimeters of Armeggedon and places it in exactly the same status that John in Rev. puts it: At the end of the 1000 years.

Any similarities from then on out as to the birds eating their flesh is immaterial to the argument unless one can first establish that Israel is in a saved condition before the seige begins, which is impossible in the Armegeddon status.

They are not saved until the very end of Armegeddon when Jesus Christ appears out of heaven with the saints. Thus the Gog and Magog prophecy does not pertain to Armeggedon but to a state distinctly 1000 years later.

The confusion may arise because the Gog Magog dialog ceases at Ez. 39:16. The next verse and on pertains to the Battle of Armegeddon and describes an entirely different status as to Israel's condition.

Here the dialog places Israel in a state of being converted which brings us to Armegeddon:

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.(they are converted here)
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.(they are not dwelling safely with God's blessing upon them)

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, (gathering begins) and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.(past tense condition)

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, (the status specifically enumerated in Ez. 38-39 concerning Gog and Magog) and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, (they accept Jesus Christ as their King)which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, (they cry out Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord) and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, (fulfilling Zech. 12:10 when God pours out his spirit upn Israel at the time of the mourning and repentance for what they have done in rejecting their Messiah) saith the Lord GOD.

Ezek 39:23-29 (KJV)

These distinctions and many others require one to leave the scripture alone and the 1000 years condition in place as scripture dictates. Gog and Magog is an entirely different war than Armegeddon both in time and situation.