Armageddon and gog and Magog are Different Battles over 1,000 years apart

[MbiaJc]

Hi

You are very good at avoiding the reality of what I have said...................I did not say all the prophets had their heads cut off I said all that were murdered did.

The Beheading of John the Baptist followed a long held Jewish tradition of killing who they believed were false prophets. The Torah lays out that such false prophets must be killed. Stoning was the traditional way to kill them. However through out Christian history and Jewish History cutting off the head of those seen not worthy of resurrection has always been the way. That is why the Jews cut off the heads of the Saints and Martyrs .......................James is just one example of this but it is recorded that almost every single Saint killed before the fall of Jerusalem had their heads cut off. This was not a new thing for the jews it was part and parcel of the Tradition of killing a false prophet. The Saints where this is not recorded does not mean it did not happen just that it was not recorded. This tradition carried over in to Christianity. Where suicide meant your head was cut off. those burned at the stake also after being taken down to be buried had their heads cut off. It also made its way into the Muslim faith in which infidels that are killed have their heads cut off. it all has grown out of the Jewish belief that cutting off the head of a false prophet is a way to insure that their body is not raised.

You need to do more research on this subject.

You are kidding right! About John the Baptist, the Jews had nothing to do with that.
This gets more hilarious every day. Thanks for the daily exercise. The doctors say one will live longer if they have a good laugh every day.

And you did say all prophets were beheaded! Which is far from the truth. How about this one. Luk 11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation. Zacharias was not beheaded he was run through with a sword.

You are trying to use tradition which is shaky at best to prove something about God's Prophets.

Show me in His Word, where it says all Prophets were beheaded and I will believe it.

God is the one that decodes who is given that honor and privilege, not the Elders\people of Israel.

Don't you see how ridiculous your claim, for Israel\Judah to make that decision? But how ridiculous of me to even suggest such?

And no I do not need to do more or any study of the matter. It is a oxymoron to me.

Now besides that I still do not see this text as ONLY speaking of those who have their heads cut off.. As I have stated the Greek does not imply that at all. The Greek implies different groups as I have stated the beheading only applies to the first group and perhaps the second group but does not have to apply to the third group.

Here is a word for word transulation of REV. 20:4
I saw thrones and they sat on them and judgment was given to them and souls of the ones having been beheaded because of the witness of Jesus and because of the word of God an who did not worship the beast nor the image of it and did not recieve the mark on the forehead and on the hand of them and they lived atain and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Do you not know what the words "because of" mean?

Don't you even know that these are the qualifications of the beheaded ones. Because one could have the witness of Jesus, could quote Gods word, but sitll have the mark of the beast. Because I see this a lot.

You still have not addresses the main point in this verse what is the mark of the Beast. You keep avoiding this point and I understand why. The reality is what we find when we understand the mark is that it can apply to every single person throughout History.

So what is the mark of the Beast?

There you go again not reading my post. Go back and read and you will find out I explained it fully. Which I am not going to do again.

1

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi

No it is not a literal translation word for word for a couple of reasons

I have been going about this all wrong. While it is known tradition that false prophets had their heads cut off. I should have been going at this from the Greek.

Not only is this not to be read as one group with qualifying actions……………..the word beheaded is not even there in the Greek.

Here is the Word for beheaded.

Ajpokefalivzw

It comes from the two root words root

Separate =ajpov

Head = kefalhv

Now in Rev unlike EVERYWHERE ELSE IN THE NT the word used is kpelekivzw

Well not really the letter for letter translation is

Pepelkivzenon that is the past tense of the word

the root is rJapivzw and plhvssw and patavssw to smite or strike and kill with a sword or axe.

The reality is it s the translators perception the beheaded is what is meant even though it is not the word for beheaded.

The word simply means to be killed. Beheaded became the accepted translation because of the Latin translation carried over into the KJV It is not what the word says. It comes from the Fact that the amills that translated this knew the Saints were all beheaded and seen this verse as referring to them.

SO not only should we read this as three groups the text does not say they were beheaded it says they were killed.

Sorry about the Mark of the beast ………you answering inside the quote is throwing me off.

So would you agree that the mark of the Beast is just plain old sin.

 

[jeffweeder]

what ever 666 is , we know that people who take it dont get in to gods kingdom. The same can be said of people who reject the gospel , or those who dont have their name in the book of life. So if we remain true to the gospel, we should stay away from this mark,without even knowing what it is. In the following paragraph after themark of the beast, gods people are marked with his name . New testament allegories to this is being sealed with the spirit of jesus, the holy spirit. Anyway let god be true and every man a liar.

 

[MbiaJc]

Hi

No it is not a literal translation word for word for a couple of reasons

I have been going about this all wrong. While it is known tradition that false prophets had their heads cut off. I should have been going at this from the Greek.

Not only is this not to be read as one group with qualifying actions……………..the word beheaded is not even there in the Greek.

Here is the Word for beheaded.

Ajpokefalivzw

It comes from the two root words root

Separate =ajpov

Head = kefalhv

Now in Rev unlike EVERYWHERE ELSE IN THE NT the word used iskpelekivzw

Well not really the letter for letter translation is

Pepelkivzenon that is the past tense of the word

the root is rJapivzw and plhvssw and patavssw to smite or strike and kill with a sword or axe.

The reality is it s the translators perception the beheaded is what is meant even though it is not the word for beheaded.

The word simply means to be killed. Beheaded became the accepted translation because of the Latin translation carried over into the KJV It is not what the word says. It comes from the Fact that the amills that translated this knew the Saints were all beheaded and seen this verse as referring to them.

SO not only should we read this as three groups the text does not say they were beheaded it says they were killed

.

Sorry about the Mark of the beast ………you answering inside the quote is throwing me off.

So would you agree that the mark of the Beast is just plain old sin.

Yes I gave you a word for word translation! To say its not is absolutely ridicules. If you so caught up in your man made doctrine that you can't see the truth when put in front of you, then I have done all I can. I have not spoken to many people that would not admit the truth when put in front of them, except the far left liberals.
And would you say sin is the opsit of good, like sin=bad?

PS I already told you I have no need of your Greek lessons so you are wasting your time and mine.

Here is the proper transulation, without spining it in the no spin zone. To fit your man made doctrine, if you can accept it, if not, Oh well LOL.
G3990

πελεκίζω

pelekizō

pel-ek-id'-zo

From a derivative of G4141 (meaning an axe.. two edge hatchet); to chop off (the head), that is, truncate: - behead. To cut of with an axe to behead.

So you are wrong again!


PS How can the answers be throwing you off when they are not inside the quote?

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi

Quote
G3990

[font=&quot]πελεκίζω

pelekizō

[/font]pel-ek-id'-zo

pel-ek-id'-zo

From a derivative of G4141 (meaning an axe.. two edge hatchet); to chop off (the head), that is, truncate: - behead. To cut of with an axe to behead.
End Quote
First off G4141 means to smite ............................it does not mean an axe.

Strong's Number: 4141 Browse Lexicon Original WordWord Origin plhvsswapparently another form of (4111) (through the idea of flattening out) Transliterated WordTDNT Entry PlessoNone Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech place'-so Verb Definition

1. to strike, smite

I listed 4141 as one of the roots of the word used. You are doing just what the translator did applying your man made doctrine to the translation .

The only people I have every seen sooo stubborn as to not change their mind when the obvious truth is presented are fundamentalist religious Neocons following man made Doctrine usually fundies. Although the we do have other example in History like when people denied the Earth went around the sun.

Second ..........................Nice try but That is not the word used. Here is the Word.

pepelekismenwn

You may find this interesting if you paste the actual greek from say the parralle NT the forum itself will give you a letter for letter translation

Although the s is actually a Z and the second last Letter could also be seen as an o in Ancient Greek


I listed the three root words for this word

the root is rJapivzw and plhvssw and patavssw


4141 is the centre one ALL OF THESE WORDS HAVE TO DO WITH TO SMITE OR STRIKE.

Here is Cut off
Found 3 entries matching: cut off

English Translation

Original Word

Transliterated Word

1581 cut off ejkkovptw ekkopto

609 cut off ajpokovptw apokopto

851 cut off ajfairevw aphaireo

You will Notice that in the previous post I showed the word for beheaded

Ajpokefalivzw

As anyone can see (other then one trying to cling to their manmade doctrine) it is of the same root. The root means to separate.

The Translator TOTALLY IGNORED THE GREEK WORD FOR HIS OWN DOCTRINE.

There are some translations that got this right.

Bible in Basic English
20:4 And I saw high seats, and they were seated on them, and the right of judging was given to them: and I saw the souls of those who were put to death for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and those who did not give worship to the beast, or to his image, and had not his mark on their brows or on their hands; and they were living and ruling with Christ a thousand years.

You are just plain wrong ...........................I realize you will cling to this doctrine of men ..................So tell me is the earth flat does the sun go around the earth?

 

[MbiaJc]

Hi

Quote
G3990

[font=&quot]πελεκίζω

pelekizō

[/font]pel-ek-id'-zo

pel-ek-id'-zo

From a derivative of G4141 (meaning an axe.. two edge hatchet); to chop off (the head), that is, truncate: - behead. To cut of with an axe to behead.
End Quote
First off G4141 means to smite ............................it does not mean an axe.

Strong's Number: 4141 Browse Lexicon Original WordWord Origin plhvsswapparently another form of (4111) (through the idea of flattening out) Transliterated WordTDNT Entry PlessoNone Phonetic SpellingParts of Speech place'-so Verb Definition

1. to strike, smite

I listed 4141 as one of the roots of the word used. You are doing just what the translator did applying your man made doctrine to the translation .

The only people I have every seen sooo stubborn as to not change their mind when the obvious truth is presented are fundamentalist religious Neocons following man made Doctrine usually fundies. Although the we do have other example in History like when people denied the Earth went around the sun.

Second ..........................Nice try but That is not the word used. Here is the Word.

pepelekismenwn

You may find this interesting if you paste the actual greek from say the parralle NT the forum itself will give you a letter for letter translation

Although the s is actually a Z and the second last Letter could also be seen as an o in Ancient Greek


I listed the three root words for this word

the root is rJapivzw and plhvssw and patavssw


4141 is the centre one ALL OF THESE WORDS HAVE TO DO WITH TO SMITE OR STRIKE.

Here is Cut off
Found 3 entries matching: cut off

English Translation

Original Word

Transliterated Word

1581 cut off ejkkovptw ekkopto

609 cut off ajpokovptw apokopto

851 cut off ajfairevw aphaireo

You will Notice that in the previous post I showed the word for beheaded

Ajpokefalivzw

As anyone can see (other then one trying to cling to their manmade doctrine) it is of the same root. The root means to separate.

The Translator TOTALLY IGNORED THE GREEK WORD FOR HIS OWN DOCTRINE.

There are some translations that got this right.

Bible in Basic English
20:4 And I saw high seats, and they were seated on them, and the right of judging was given to them: and I saw the souls of those who were put to death for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and those who did not give worship to the beast, or to his image, and had not his mark on their brows or on their hands; and they were living and ruling with Christ a thousand years.

You are just plain wrong ...........................I realize you will cling to this doctrine of men ..................So tell me is the earth flat does the sun go around the earth?

If you are trying to convince me of the plain word of God, spent by your liberal man made doctrine, you are wasting your time and mine? Of course, if you are trying to convince yourself, that another story?



What we have here is you will go to any length to change the plain word of God, to fit your liberal man made doctrine.



I would stick my neck out and say you are one that would support women preachers\posters, am I wrong? Remember you need to be against every thing I am for (to be true to your position), regardless of how much spin you need to put on the plain word of God, too make it fit your doctrine. Also remember this is the no spin zone.

Ps You are plain wrong. You are using the wrong word. The word for beheaded is 3990. Answer two questions if you can? What does one use a axe for. What does one use a sword for? I know you going to come up with some off the wall use of each. However sensible people following this will know the plain truth of the matter. Well oh, another good laugh of the day. Thanks

If one can substitute any word they won't, for the actual word, one can prove anything they spin off. Except the ones that know better in the first place. However there will be a crowd that you can deceive. Probably in this day and time, a bigger crowd than they that knows better.

Also is your position on the sun, that it sets in a pool of water at night?

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi

No the plain word of God is HOW JOHN SAID AND WROTE IT ........not how some translator desided it should read in English.

So do you hate women you seem to have a hate on for them. To bring that up here. I guess you feel they should not even be allowed to post. So should we tell Women prophets to sit doewn and shut up.

Quote
What does one use a axe for.
End Quote

Well I use one to chop wood every day.

As far as a weapon it was the weapon of Choice of a few different peoples. The Celtics the Saxons......the North American Indians.


Quote
If one can substitute any word they won't, for the actual word, one can prove anything they spin off.
End Quote


It is the Translator and you who are doing the substituting not me I have given the same translation as given in the concordance you on the other hand have done NO SUCH THING,

The word used in Rev 20 :4 does not mean beheaded it is not used anywhere else in the NT as beheaded it is not used in [font=&quot]Greek literature [/font]as beheaded it is used as Slain.

Now I realize you have to convince yourself on this point that is fine...................... believe what you will............................ but it does not change the plain truth of this word.

here is the word for head

[font=Arial, Helvetica]Strong's Number: 2776[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica] Browse Lexicon[/font] [font=Arial, Helvetica]Original Word[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]Word Origin[/font] kefalhv[font=Arial, Helvetica]from the primary kapto (in the sense of seizing)[/font] [font=Arial, Helvetica]Transliterated Word[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]TDNT Entry[/font] [font=Arial, Helvetica]Kephale[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]3:673,429[/font] [font=Arial, Helvetica]Phonetic Spelling[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]Parts of Speech[/font] [font=Arial, Helvetica]kef-al-ay' [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]Noun Feminine [/font] [font=Arial, Helvetica] Definition[/font] [font=Arial, Helvetica][/font]

1. [font=Arial, Helvetica] the head, both of men and often of animals. Since the loss of the head destroys life, this word is used in the phrases relating to capital and extreme punishment.[/font]
2. [font=Arial, Helvetica] metaph. anything supreme, chief, prominent[/font]
   1. [font=Arial, Helvetica] of persons, master lord: of a husband in relation to his wife[/font]
   2. [font=Arial, Helvetica] of Christ: the Lord of the husband and of the Church[/font]
   3. [font=Arial, Helvetica] of things: the corner stone[/font]

Once again not found in the word in Question.....................here we see this word IS USED FOR CAPITAL PUNISHMENT as in Beheading.

I mean if was EVEN CLOSE one could say MAYBE .....but it is NOT EVEN CLOSE.

You are just plain WRONG..................................but hey it is your choice to follow the doctrine of men. because that what saying this word means beheaded is The Doctrine of the Translator of this into Latin and then from latin to English

 

[MbiaJc]

Hi

No the plain word of God is HOW JOHN SAID AND WROTE IT ........not how some translator desided it should read in English.

So do you hate women you seem to have a hate on for them. To bring that up here. I guess you feel they should not even be allowed to post. So should we tell Women prophets to sit doewn and shut up.

Quote
What does one use a axe for.
End Quote

Well I use one to chop wood every day.

As far as a weapon it was the weapon of Choice of a few different peoples. The Celtics the Saxons......the North American Indians.


Quote
If one can substitute any word they won't, for the actual word, one can prove anything they spin off.
End Quote


It is the Translator and you who are doing the substituting not me I have given the same translation as given in the concordance you on the other hand have done NO SUCH THING,

The word used in Rev 20 :4 does not mean beheaded it is not used anywhere else in the NT as beheaded it is not used in [font=&quot]Greek literature [/font]as beheaded it is used as Slain.

Now I realize you have to convince yourself on this point that is fine...................... believe what you will............................ but it does not change the plain truth of this word.

here is the word for head

[font=Arial, Helvetica]Strong's Number: 2776[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica] Browse Lexicon[/font] [font=Arial, Helvetica]Original Word[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]Word Origin[/font] kefalhv[font=Arial, Helvetica]from the primary kapto (in the sense of seizing)[/font] [font=Arial, Helvetica]Transliterated Word[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]TDNT Entry[/font] [font=Arial, Helvetica]Kephale[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]3:673,429[/font] [font=Arial, Helvetica]Phonetic Spelling[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]Parts of Speech[/font] [font=Arial, Helvetica]kef-al-ay' [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]Noun Feminine [/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]Definition[/font]

1. [font=Arial, Helvetica]the head, both of men and often of animals. Since the loss of the head destroys life, this word is used in the phrases relating to capital and extreme punishment.[/font]
2. [font=Arial, Helvetica]metaph. anything supreme, chief, prominent[/font]
   1. [font=Arial, Helvetica]of persons, master lord: of a husband in relation to his wife[/font]
   2. [font=Arial, Helvetica]of Christ: the Lord of the husband and of the Church[/font]
   3. [font=Arial, Helvetica]of things: the corner stone[/font]

Once again not found in the word in Question.....................here we see this word IS USED FOR CAPITAL PUNISHMENT as in Beheading.



I mean if was EVEN CLOSE one could say MAYBE .....but it is NOT EVEN CLOSE.

You are just plain WRONG..................................but hey it is your choice to follow the doctrine of men. because that what saying this word means beheaded is The Doctrine of the Translator of this into Latin and then from latin to English

Another laugh roller thanks: You are transulating every word, but the one that is in question. Why don't you try the word in question for a change?

You don't seem to get it. You trying to run your con on the wrong one, try the ones that don't know better. And you will have a better resuption.

As for women, I just believe what the plain word of God says. They are not to take the authority over man when the church is come together. I went at this wrong. I should have said you probably think Genesis is not true and that Paul's writing are not authorative.

 

[Just The Facts]

[font=&quot]Hi

No I get it fine. ........................................You are missing the point..................you CANNOT have the word beheaded WITHOUT the word HEAD in there CAN YOU.

Let me ask you a question ..................is a Definition in Strong what the word actually meant to the people who wrote it or is it how the translator used that word when translating.

Now lets say I am writing in English and I write two sentences.

The King of France [/font][font=&quot]was beheaded [/font][font=&quot]by the Government for his actions.

There were many who followed him and they to were executed by the government also.

Now if someone was translating these two sentences could they take the word executed and say it means beheaded..................because they understand that is how the government killed people.


That is what has gone on in Rev 20 4: the word in the Greek does not mean Beheaded.....................True the Translator of the Vulgate translated this word into beheaded and the KJV translators using the vulgate followed this translation but that is only because that is what they beleived it meant not because the word actually means beheaded.

I think Genesis is true just like I think Rev is true and Daniel and I believe Paul spoke in the Spirit..................I do not believe we should use Pauls word to trump Jesus' words or actions. We Should see Paul in light of Jesus' words.

Let me ask you a Question.

Josh:10:13: And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies.

So Does the Earth go around the Sun or is it the Sun that moves?

I mean come on you do not have to be a genius to see the Text says that the Sun stayed still so obviously it is the sun that moves.
[/font]

 

[MbiaJc]

[font=&quot]Hi

No I get it fine. ........................................You are missing the point..................you CANNOT have the word beheaded WITHOUT the word HEAD in there CAN YOU.

Let me ask you a question ..................is a Definition in Strong what the word actually meant to the people who wrote it or is it how the translator used that word when translating.

Now lets say I am writing in English and I write two sentences.

The King of France [/font][font=&quot]was beheaded [/font][font=&quot]by the Government for his actions.

There were many who followed him and they to were executed by the government also.

Now if someone was translating these two sentences could they take the word executed and say it means beheaded..................because they understand that is how the government killed people.


That is what has gone on in Rev 20 4: the word in the Greek does not mean Beheaded.....................True the Translator of the Vulgate translated this word into beheaded and the KJV translators using the vulgate followed this translation but that is only because that is what they beleived it meant not because the word actually means beheaded.

I think Genesis is true just like I think Rev is true and Daniel and I believe Paul spoke in the Spirit..................I do not believe we should use Pauls word to trump Jesus' words or actions. We Should see Paul in light of Jesus' words.

Let me ask you a Question.

Josh:10:13: And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies.

So Does the Earth go around the Sun or is it the Sun that moves?

I mean come on you do not have to be a genius to see the Text says that the Sun stayed still so obviously it is the sun that moves.
[/font]

Now what we have if morory serves me right.

First: you said it was in the way youput comas in the Greek of Rev.20:4



Second: it was the fault of the translators, because they were translating the right word; however you translated every thing but the word in question.



Third: It is tradition that counts, forget the proper translation of the proper word.



Forth: You are a better, more experienced translator, than the translators, that were not paid for their work; their aim was as near accurate translation from the Greek as possible.

Fifth: You are trying to translate Josh 10:13. Makes me ask what is coming next to avoid the plain word of God?


As I have said before, if one is allowed to substitute the word in question, to any word that seems to conform to his doctrine, one can prove anything seemingly. However one cannot fool the knowledgeable ones, only the unconcerned ones.

You don't know whether the beheaded word in the Greek is right or not, because you haven even got to it, you been off running different rabbits, not even concerned with the one you ought to have been running. That like going squirrel hunting, to have your dog start running a deer, instead of squirrel.

However it all makes of good conversation. Thanks

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi

You are making straw mwn and then riping them appart. Go ahead play such games it is obvious you do not want to address the real issue here.


Quote
You don't know whether the beheaded word in the Greek is right or not, because you haven even got to it,
end Quote

I have shown what this word means over and over I have given the root words for it and the definnitions from Strong of those root words.

I am not sustituting anything.....................The Words is

pepelekismenwn

This is the word in Question. This word DOES NOT MEAN BEHEADED.

It DOES NOT have the word head in it.

here is the word for beheaded

Ajpokefalivzw

It does have the word for Head in It.

Head = kefalhv

And it is prefixed with the word Separate.

Separate =ajpov

Here is where it is used in the NT

Mt:14:10: And he sent, and beheaded (Ajpokefalivzw)John in the prison.

Mk:6:16: But when Herod heard thereof, he said, It is John, whom I beheaded:(Ajpokefalivzw) he is risen from the dead.

Mk:6:27: And immediately the king sent an executioner, and commanded his head to be brought: and he went and beheaded (Ajpokefalivzw)him in the prison,

Lk:9:9: And Herod said, John have I beheaded:(Ajpokefalivzw) but who is this, of whom I hear such things? And he desired to see him.

As we can see it is used not only in one book but three books by three different authors.

Now Beheaded only shows up twice in the OT........Now as we know the Hebrew was translated into Greek by Jewish Scholars who were raised and spoke Greek.

2Sam:4:[7] When they came into the house, as he lay on his bed in his bedchamber, they smote him, and slew him, and beheaded him. They took his head, and went by the way of the Arabah all night,

kai eishlqon eis ton oikon kai memfibosqe ekaqeuden epi ths klinhs autou en tw koitwni autou kai tuptousin auton kai qanatousin kai afairousin thn kefalhn autou kai elabon thn kefalhn autou kai aphlqon odon thn kata dusmas olhn thn nukta

here they have "separated his head" the Greek word for head is there twice.

Deut:21:6: And all the elders of that city, that are next unto the slain man, shall wash their hands over the heifer that is beheaded in the valley:

kai pasa h gerousia ths polews ekeinhs oi eggizontes tw traumatia niyontai tas ceiras epi thn kefalhn ths damalews ths neneurokophmenhs en th faraggi

Once Again the word beheaded is not really there but it does say Head then uses the word for slaughter of Animals in a religous cerimony neneurokophmenhs

The Point is.................. EVERYWHERE IN THE BIBLE where beheaded is used it has the word HEAD in the Text......................but not in REV 20......................If you do not wish to accept this obvious fact ...................refer to what I said before and I will assume you are fundy neocon who can not accept even the simplest of realities when placed in front of you. Instead preferring to live in a total illusion to fit your man made doctrine.

the reality is it was the translators opinon that the manor in which they were killed was beheading. the word itself does not mean beheaded . It means slain or killed with a weapon ie an axe or sword..

 

[exodus19]

Hi

You are making straw mwn and then riping them appart. Go ahead play such games it is obvious you do not want to address the real issue here.


Quote
You don't know whether the beheaded word in the Greek is right or not, because you haven even got to it,
end Quote

I have shown what this word means over and over I have given the root words for it and the definnitions from Strong of those root words.

I am not sustituting anything.....................The Words is

pepelekismenwn

This is the word in Question. This word DOES NOT MEAN BEHEADED.

It DOES NOT have the word head in it.

here is the word for beheaded

Ajpokefalivzw

It does have the word for Head in It.

Head = kefalhv

And it is prefixed with the word Seperate.

Separate =ajpov

Here is where it is used in the NT

Mt:14:10: And he sent, and beheaded (Ajpokefalivzw)John in the prison.

Mk:6:16: But when Herod heard thereof, he said, It is John, whom I beheaded:(Ajpokefalivzw) he is risen from the dead.

Mk:6:27: And immediately the king sent an executioner, and commanded his head to be brought: and he went and beheaded (Ajpokefalivzw)him in the prison,

Lk:9:9: And Herod said, John have I beheaded:(Ajpokefalivzw) but who is this, of whom I hear such things? And he desired to see him.

As we can see it is used not only in one book but three books by three different authors.

Now Beheaded only shows up twice in the OT........Now as we know the Hebrew was translated into Greek by Jewish Scholars who were raised and spoke Greek.

2Sam:4:[7] When they came into the house, as he lay on his bed in his bedchamber, they smote him, and slew him, and beheaded him. They took his head, and went by the way of the Arabah all night,

kai eishlqon eis ton oikon kai memfibosqe ekaqeuden epi ths klinhs autou en tw koitwni autou kai tuptousin auton kai qanatousin kai afairousin thn kefalhn autou kai elabon thn kefalhn autou kai aphlqon odon thn kata dusmas olhn thn nukta

here they have "seperated his head" the greek word for head is there twice.

Deut:21:6: And all the elders of that city, that are next unto the slain man, shall wash their hands over the heifer that is beheaded in the valley:

kai pasa h gerousia ths polews ekeinhs oi eggizontes tw traumatia niyontai tas ceiras epi thn kefalhn ths damalews ths neneurokophmenhs en th faraggi

Once Again the word beheaded is not really there but it does say Head then uses the word for slaughter of Animals in a religous cerimony neneurokophmenhs

The Point is.................. EVERYWHERE IN THE BIBLE where beheaded is used it has the word HEAD in the Text......................but not in REV 20......................If you do not wish to accept this obvious fact ...................refer to what I said before and I will assume you are fundy neocon who can not accept even the simplest of realities when placed in front of you. Instead preferring to live in a total illusion to fit your man made doctrine.

the reality is it was the translators opinon that the manor in which they were killed was beheading. the word itself does not mean beheaded . It means slain or killed with a weapon ie an axe or sword..

in this case JTF you are correct, the word beheaded does mean those who are slain by the sword of God or that is the Word of God by the mouth of the Holy Spirit delivered by the messiah son.
though i do not always agree with Strong in this case i do.

so you scored well here but perhaps you didn't know it was the twoedged sword that beheads.

peace over/

 

[MbiaJc]

Hi

You are making straw mwn and then riping them appart. Go ahead play such games it is obvious you do not want to address the real issue here.


Quote
You don't know whether the beheaded word in the Greek is right or not, because you haven even got to it,
end Quote

I have shown what this word means over and over I have given the root words for it and the definnitions from Strong of those root words.

I am not sustituting anything.....................The Words is

pepelekismenwn

This is the word in Question. This word DOES NOT MEAN BEHEADED.

It DOES NOT have the word head in it.

here is the word for beheaded

Ajpokefalivzw

It does have the word for Head in It.

Head = kefalhv

And it is prefixed with the word Seperate.

Separate =ajpov

Here is where it is used in the NT

Mt:14:10: And he sent, and beheaded (Ajpokefalivzw)John in the prison.

Mk:6:16: But when Herod heard thereof, he said, It is John, whom I beheaded:(Ajpokefalivzw) he is risen from the dead.

Mk:6:27: And immediately the king sent an executioner, and commanded his head to be brought: and he went and beheaded (Ajpokefalivzw)him in the prison,

Lk:9:9: And Herod said, John have I beheaded:(Ajpokefalivzw) but who is this, of whom I hear such things? And he desired to see him.

As we can see it is used not only in one book but three books by three different authors.

Now Beheaded only shows up twice in the OT........Now as we know the Hebrew was translated into Greek by Jewish Scholars who were raised and spoke Greek.

2Sam:4:[7] When they came into the house, as he lay on his bed in his bedchamber, they smote him, and slew him, and beheaded him. They took his head, and went by the way of the Arabah all night,

kai eishlqon eis ton oikon kai memfibosqe ekaqeuden epi ths klinhs autou en tw koitwni autou kai tuptousin auton kai qanatousin kai afairousin thn kefalhn autou kai elabon thn kefalhn autou kai aphlqon odon thn kata dusmas olhn thn nukta

here they have "seperated his head" the greek word for head is there twice.

Deut:21:6: And all the elders of that city, that are next unto the slain man, shall wash their hands over the heifer that is beheaded in the valley:

kai pasa h gerousia ths polews ekeinhs oi eggizontes tw traumatia niyontai tas ceiras epi thn kefalhn ths damalews ths neneurokophmenhs en th faraggi

Once Again the word beheaded is not really there but it does say Head then uses the word for slaughter of Animals in a religous cerimony neneurokophmenhs

The Point is.................. EVERYWHERE IN THE BIBLE where beheaded is used it has the word HEAD in the Text......................but not in REV 20......................If you do not wish to accept this obvious fact ...................refer to what I said before and I will assume you are fundy neocon who can not accept even the simplest of realities when placed in front of you. Instead preferring to live in a total illusion to fit your man made doctrine.

the reality is it was the translators opinon that the manor in which they were killed was beheading. the word itself does not mean beheaded . It means slain or killed with a weapon ie an axe or sword..

I already told you if you are trying to convince me you are wasting your time and mine, however if you are trying to convince yourself, then right on. So you must be trying to convince yourself, of what fits your doctrine of men humus.

Besides you are completely overlooking the word "because of".

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi

I am just responding to your baseless accusations.

I am not overlooking anything. I have maintained from the start that the people mentioned here is all who are saved.

Since the word beheaded is not there .............in fact the word head is not even there.............................you contention that this something other then all who are saved is wrong.

Rev 20:4

All who have been killed for Jesus

All who have been killed for the Word of God.

And All who have not received the Mark of the Beast which is sin.

Since all who are saved are forgiven then they do not have the mark.

So this group is all who are saved...........

Now I know you do not see it this way but that is ok I understand you wish to stick to your doctrine of men.

Oh by the way I have enjoyed this debate it is nice to discuss with someone who does not get all offended when you say they have a doctrine of men. Someone who sees this for what it is.

Peace to you my brother in Christ.

 

[MbiaJc]

Hi

I am just responding to your baseless accusations.



I am not overlooking anything. I have maintained from the start that the people mentioned here is all who are saved.



Since the word beheaded is not there .............in fact the word head is not even there.............................you contention that this something other then all who are saved is wrong.



Rev 20:4



All who have been killed for Jesus



All who have been killed for the Word of God.



And All who have not received the Mark of the Beast which is sin.



Since all who are saved are forgiven then they do not have the mark.



So this group is all who are saved...........



Now I know you do not see it this way but that is ok I understand you wish to stick to your doctrine of men.



Oh by the way I have enjoyed this debate it is nice to discuss with someone who does not get all offended when you say they have a doctrine of men. Someone who sees this for what it is.

Peace to you my brother in Christ.

I was just going back over the post, here is something I think you should know.

Bible in Basic English
20:4 And I saw high seats, and they were seated on them, and the right of judging was given to them: and I saw the souls of those who were put to death for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and those who did not give worship to the beast, or to his image, and had not his mark on their brows or on their hands; and they were living and ruling with Christ a thousand years.

The part you highlited in red and what I have highlited in red, are not in the original text.

Weymouth New Testament, makes the same mistake
4 And I saw thrones, and some who were seated on them, to whom judgment was entrusted. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded on account of the testimony that they had borne to Jesus and on account of God’s Message, and also the souls of those who had not worshipped the Wild Beast or his statue, nor received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands; and they came to Life and were kings with Christ for a thousand years.

These two translations are adding to the words of this book. Read Rev. 22 as to adding to this book?


Here is the way it wuld be translated using your theory.

I saw thrones and they sat on them and judgment was given to them and souls of the ones having been cut off with an axe because of the witness of Jesus and because of the word of God and who did not worship the beast nor the image of it and did not receive the mark on the forehead and on the hand of them and they lived again and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi

Well I would not call that adding unless you are willing to say that using beheaded is adding also.

This is something people have a very hard time putting in perspective. What we have in the KJV and in every translation is an OPINION as to what is said. It is an opinion because it is a Translation.

You are close I would say it is more like this

I saw thrones and they sat on them and judgment was given to the souls of the ones having been slain because of the witness of Jesus and because of the word of God and who did not worship the beast nor the image of it and did not receive the mark on the forehead and on the hand of them and they lived again and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The part about being slain with a two edged sword or axe …while it could be what was meant IT DOES NOT have to be what was meant. It can also mean just plain innocents slain or killed in war.

If I was to write this.

And seats where placed and the right to vote was given to them having been found worth, because of the Founding Fathers, Because of those who signed, and who did not follow the King and receive his seal they received the right to vote for 1,000 years.

Now one could assume that I meant the same group………………….But I did not the ones who signed are not the founding Fathers they are the ones who signed the bill of rights it is a different group.

[font=&quot]Your point that it says "because of" does not change what is being said. You need to look into this further especially the use of qualifying statements in Greek.

While we cannot say with 100% certainty that this is three different groups we also cannot say with 100% certainty that it is not three different groups.

So what we need to do is look to other verses to make sure we keep this in line with what is said else where about this resurrection and reward of people we know who did indeed die for the testimony of Jesus and the Word of God and who where spotless.

It is folly to take a single verse and build a doctrine around it.[/font]

 

[MbiaJc]

Hi



I saw thrones and they sat on them and judgment was given to the souls of the ones having been slain because of the witness of Jesus and because of the word of God and who did not worship the beast nor the image of it and did not receive the mark on the forehead and on the hand of them and they lived again and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

QUOTE]

Nope! you are doing what your theory (remember we are using your theory) does not allow. You are persuming "slain", which you might as well asume beheaded, which by the way would be acurate.

According to your theory this is a word for word translation, any thing added by asumption is adding to scripture. When beheaded is added that is not a asumpton, it is what was intended by the writer.
I saw thrones and they sat on them and judgment was given to them and souls of the ones having been cut off with an axe because of the witness of Jesus and because of the word of God and who did not worship the beast nor the image of it and did not receive the mark on the forehead and on the hand of them and they lived again and reigned with Christ a thousand years.