Argument for God's existence.

[gaara4158]

thank you for the comments and supporting this thread, I appreciate it. But we are dealing with this:

When it comes to the origin of life there are only two possibilities: creation or spontaneous generation. There is no third way. Spontaneous generation was disproved one hundred years ago, but that leads us to only one other conclusion, that of supernatural creation.

Not yet. Right now the dilemma is infinite regress vs. absolute beginning, and better philosophers than any of us have failed to settle that issue. But if you choose an absolute beginning, it is absurd to apply the laws that apply inside the universe, including causality, to the universe itself. This is one way in which it can be proposed that the universe is causeless, and it’s precisely the kind of move you’re trying to use on your god. And that’s what many of us have been trying to tell you.

 

[cloudyday2]

so where did all those "other" universes come from? They either were made by someone or something, or they made them self. This is not a false dichotomy, there really are only two options here. So which is it?

If everything possible exists then the seed of creation is existence. In other words God didn't need to create the specific universe He only needed to declare "let everything that can exist come into existence" (every universe, every possible outcome in each universe, etc.)

So I think that is a step in the right direction. We only need to consider the "creation of existence" rather than the creation of our specific universe.

Imagine that "cause and effect" and the "arrow of time" are illusions. Imagine that information is not lost or gained as time progresses. The past and present and future all exist. Time is like turning pages in a book. The information in the book doesn't change.

So with "cause and effect" and the "arrow of time" eliminated then the whole question of what "caused" the universe in "the beginning" disappears. (This is just a random thought though. I am not sure what I think.)

 

[ToddNotTodd]

Oooh! How exciting! Being scientists, no doubt they supplied the evidence which led them to conclude that God exists? Yes?
Actually, no. Yes, atheists do sometimes become Christians. It's for the same reason every time. It's because they felt an emotional need to.

And, conversely, I’ve seen plenty of Christians throughout the years deconvert. The Clergy Project, a non profit that offers support to religious leaders that have deconverted, is pretty sizable.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

at least you admit, it's not an intellectual problem people had with God but an emotional one. I agree.

Not at all. You've missed the point completely, I'm afraid.
What I said was there seems to be a complete absence of reasons to believe in God, except for emotional satisfaction.
To put it in simpler terms, there is no evidence for a rational being to believe in God; people do simply because it makes them feel good. Which is nice for them, but difficult for people who imagine that there is such a thing as "evidence for God's existence".

 

[InterestedAtheist]

thank you for the comments and supporting this thread, I appreciate it. But we are dealing with this:

When it comes to the origin of life there are only two possibilities: creation or spontaneous generation. There is no third way. Spontaneous generation was disproved one hundred years ago, but that leads us to only one other conclusion, that of supernatural creation.

You seem to have switched from the Kalaam Cosmological Argument to The Argument from Biogenesis. You also seem to be equally unaware of the reasons which this argument is nonsense as well.
They do, however, suffer from the same fault: you can't just say "Because I don't know how it happened, God did it." It doesn't work that way. Provide the evidence that leads you to the conclusion that God was responsible for the creation of life.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

And, conversely, I’ve seen plenty of Christians throughout the years deconvert. The Clergy Project, a non profit that offers support to religious leaders that have deconverted, is pretty sizable.

Excellent point! Yes, I was just looking at their website the other day and thinking of posting it.
And if you think about it, clergy tend to be (a) better educated than the average Christian and (b) to have an incentive to keep any doubts they feel secret, as it endangers their social standing, friendships, respect and livelihoods. Who knows how many clergy are secretly doubters or unbelievers, but don't feel comfortable sharing this?

 

[cloudyday2]

Not at all. You've missed the point completely, I'm afraid.
What I said was there seems to be a complete absence of reasons to believe in God, except for emotional satisfaction.
To put it in simpler terms, there is no evidence for a rational being to believe in God; people do simply because it makes them feel good. Which is nice for them, but difficult for people who imagine that there is such a thing as "evidence for God's existence".

Sorry to jump into your conversation, but your post touches on an issue that I have been pondering. I have piles and piles of Christian documentaries and Christian bible study on DVD that I enjoy watching in the evenings before sleep. I feel I have lost something by losing my faith in Christianity, but I cannot resurrect that faith no matter how many DVDs I watch.

So I wonder if it as simple as believing because it makes you feel good. I can't put my finger on why I do NOT have faith anymore. Maybe I just want to be the captain of my own ship (the "S.S. Sinner" LOL), but I don't think that is the explanation either.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

Sorry to jump into your conversation, but your post touches on an issue that I have been pondering. I have piles and piles of Christian documentaries and Christian bible study on DVD that I enjoy watching in the evenings before sleep. I feel I have lost something by losing my faith in Christianity, but I cannot resurrect that faith no matter how many DVDs I watch.

So I wonder if it as simple as believing because it makes you feel good. I can't put my finger on why I do NOT have faith anymore. Maybe I just want to be the captain of my own ship (the "S.S. Sinner" LOL), but I don't think that is the explanation either.

Hello Cloudyday. I'm sorry to say that you probably have lost something. By no longer being a Christian, you may indeed - and this is just a guess, since I don't know you personally - have lost things like meaning in life, fellowship, a sense of purpose, even actual friends. Please don;t be disheartened - Christianity does not by any means have a monopoly on these.
Can I recommend Dan Barker's book, Godless. It has some very interesting chapters in it, which may be of use or comfort to you, about why he gradually lost faith in faith, and how his life became much richer and more meanginful after he became an atheist.
You might also find Essays - Daylight Atheism to be of use, especially Rats in a Maze - Daylight Atheism, Unapologetic - Daylight Atheism and Who Needs God? - Daylight Atheism

 

[createdtoworship]

And the other options I provided.

yes, spontaneous generation from a multi verse. Same problem different chapter. Where did the multiverse come from?

 

[createdtoworship]

By omitting the word multiverse from some of my replies? I’ll admit that happened, but that was to keep my sentences less clunky. I even added the fact that the proof still stands if a multiverse exists. Strike 2.

yes you added the multiverse after I called you on it a second time.

 

[Moral Orel]

Where did the multiverse come from?

The multiverse is eternal. It didn't "come from" anywhere.

 

[gaara4158]

yes you added the multiverse after I called you on it a second time.

Multiverse was already baked into the question you asked Tinker, so as far as I’m concerned this matter is settled. I’ll try to spell things out better for you in the future. Please stop trying to club me on technicalities, it takes away from the discussion.

 

[createdtoworship]

Multiverse was already baked into the question you asked Tinker, so as far as I’m concerned this matter is settled. I’ll try to spell things out better for you in the future. Please stop trying to club me on technicalities, it takes away from the discussion.

When you change your replies because of questioning, that is technically changing the bars. I am sorry you disagree.

 

[createdtoworship]

Yes we all know the multiverse created the universe. But what I am asking is what caused the multiverse? I was correct in saying that it's eother caused by a creator or by spontaneous generation. And that has been disproven for 100 years.

 

[Moral Orel]

Yes we all know the multiverse created the universe. But what I am asking is what caused the multiverse?

And I keep telling you the multiverse is eternal so it doesn't have a cause. Am I on "Ignore" or what?

 

[gaara4158]

Yes we all know the multiverse created the universe. But what I am asking is what caused the multiverse? I was correct in saying that it's eother caused by a creator or by spontaneous generation. And that has been disproven for 100 years.

You’re ignoring those of us saying how it could be causeless.

 

[gaara4158]

When you change your replies because of questioning, that is technically changing the bars. I am sorry you disagree.

No, that’s called directly answering a question. You should try it some time.

I could always take it back and again say that there are no dimensions outside the universe. Seeing as the universe is all of space and time, the “multiverse” and all its “universes” with all their “dimensions” would actually already be included in the word “universe.” By definition, if it’s a dimension of space, it’s in the universe.

 

[createdtoworship]

You’re ignoring those of us saying how it could be causeless.

like I said spontaneous generation was disproven a hundred years ago. It's what is called bad science.
Spontaneous generation - Wikipedia

besides it is logically incoherent to believe that everything came from nothing.

 

[createdtoworship]

No, that’s called directly answering a question. You should try it some time.

I could always take it back and again say that there are no dimensions outside the universe. Seeing as the universe is all of space and time, the “multiverse” and all its “universes” with all their “dimensions” would actually already be included in the word “universe.” By definition, if it’s a dimension of space, it’s in the universe.

so parallel universes would not be considered part of our universe? That would be changing the bars yet again.

 

[gaara4158]

like I said spontaneous generation was disproven a hundred years ago. It's what is called bad science.
Spontaneous generation - Wikipedia

besides it is logically incoherent to believe that everything came from nothing.

We’re not saying anything about spontaneous generation or anything coming from nothing. That is a straw man fallacy. We’re saying that whatever exceptions you want to plead for God to exist without a cause, we can also say about the universe.