Argument for God's existence.

[Tinker Grey]

God did not have a beginning, in order to have a beginning you must be subject to time. God is outside of time (time is only the fourth dimension).

Ah. Had a lot of experience of beings "who exist outside of time," have you?
Do you have any evidence that such creatures are possible?

And as noted, a being without time can't do anything.

 

[InterestedAtheist]

And as noted, a being without time can't do anything.

Just one of the many contradictions that making the head of your religion an combined being creates.

 

[durangodawood]

The being that supercedes time, never had a beginning. Because He is outside of time. The universe which operates in time had a beginning.

Time operates "in the universe" We dont know if the universe as a whole operates in some realm where its subject to time. The universe itself might be eternal, while the comings and going "within it" are caught up in time.

 

[gaara4158]

It does not apply to God because God is outside of time and does not have a beginning. That is a requirement of God by definition to be everywhere at once (omnipresent), means that God would be in all dimensions, all 20 something of them. Even the theoretical dimensions. He would have to be God over all of that. The only four dimensions that had a beginning are the first four. The universe contains mass and therefore that mass is subject to time according to Einsteins theory of relativity, which means it had a beginning, and can be destroyed. But my question to you is, where in the known universe has something created itself? Do you have a source for this?

So, you didn’t answer my question. What does it mean to “create itself?” I have posited that the very idea is incoherent. Why do you keep asking me for an example of something that creates itself when I’ve already told you that’s not possible?

Time exists inside the universe. That does not mean that time applies *to* the universe. If you can picture God outside of time, space, and matter, then you can also picture the universe, closed within a bubble, floating in this hypothetical, timeless ether. Whatever exceptions to the rules that exist inside the universe you want to grant to God, can also be applied to the universe as a whole. Failure to acknowledge this is to commit the fallacy of composition, which is the mistaken belief that whatever characteristics the parts that make up the whole have, the whole must also have. For example, a single molecule of water is not “wet.” But it would be a mistake to assume that because no single water molecule is wet, that a glass filled with water molecules wouldn’t be wet.

 

[createdtoworship]

Ah. Had a lot of experience of beings "who exist outside of time," have you?
Do you have any evidence that such creatures are possible?

According to the definition of God, He must be outside or supersede the thing created. Time is a product of our universe, therefore God supersedes time

 

[createdtoworship]

Nope. Scientists agree that the universe as we know it began to be the way it is about 13.8 billion years ago. A multiverse generating universes solves the 'what-happened-before' problem.

how did the multiverse get there? Same problem, different chapter.

 

[createdtoworship]

And as noted, a being without time can't do anything.

that is a very limited viewpoint. Any being the inhibits dimensions higher than time are more superior than the dimensions before it.

 

[createdtoworship]

So, you didn’t answer my question. What does it mean to “create itself?” I have posited that the very idea is incoherent. Why do you keep asking me for an example of something that creates itself when I’ve already told you that’s not possible?

Time exists inside the universe. That does not mean that time applies *to* the universe. If you can picture God outside of time, space, and matter, then you can also picture the universe, closed within a bubble, floating in this hypothetical, timeless ether. Whatever exceptions to the rules that exist inside the universe you want to grant to God, can also be applied to the universe as a whole. Failure to acknowledge this is to commit the fallacy of composition, which is the mistaken belief that whatever characteristics the parts that make up the whole have, the whole must also have. For example, a single molecule of water is not “wet.” But it would be a mistake to assume that because no single water molecule is wet, that a glass filled with water molecules wouldn’t be wet.

where did the hypothetical, timeless ether come from?

 

[gaara4158]

where did the hypothetical, timeless ether come from?

You’re the one who proposed it exists as soon as you placed God in it. You tell me.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Any being the inhibits dimensions higher

There are no dimensions outside the universe/multiverse

 

[createdtoworship]

You’re the one who proposed it exists as soon as you placed God in it. You tell me.

please quote where I say this.

 

[createdtoworship]

There are no dimensions outside the universe/multiverse

please cite sources for this.

 

[gaara4158]

please quote where I say this.

It does not apply to God because God is outside of time and does not have a beginning. That is a requirement of God by definition to be everywhere at once (omnipresent), means that God would be in all dimensions, all 20 something of them. Even the theoretical dimensions.

 

[cloudyday2]

Here is a thought: maybe everything that can exist does exist. The universe consists of a set of physical laws and states at various times that conform to those laws. So every set of physical laws coupled with states at various times that conform to those laws must exist.

There is no cause and effect. There is only solutions to constraints where one variable is time. I hope that makes sense, and I'm sure it is not a new proposal. There are other universes with the same physical laws but different states, and there are other universes with different physical laws and of different states. ... blah blah blah ... it's not a fully-formed idea.

 

[gaara4158]

please cite sources for this.

It’s the definition of universe. The universe is all of space and time, and dimensions refer to space.

 

[createdtoworship]

quotation: It does not apply to God because God is outside of time and does not have a beginning. That is a requirement of God by definition to be everywhere at once (omnipresent), means that God would be in all dimensions, all 20 something of them. Even the theoretical dimensions.

oh your talking about that? You said "ether" which through me off, as I never used that word. Yes God would exist in all dimensions, by the very definition of God's omnipresence. So those dimensions would be created by God, just like everything else in the universe. Ultimately God does not need to have a dimension to exist within. He may choose to exist in some dimension, but it is not required, it is very possible to create other realms that are not dimensions at all for that matter. And even in those realms, God could choose or choose not to abide there. In the Bible God himself actually lived on the earth for a period of time, which was created by Himself. Sort of like how you can create a house and live in it. But it is not to say that God was only subject to our four earthly dimensions, God could simply interject Himself into our dimension from higher dimensions, as the video suggests, that I posted earlier. the fact that God is God, by definition means, He is everywhere at once. So He would exist in other dimensions, or other realms that are not even dimensions. IF they in fact exist. All I am saying is there is nothing that suggests God must exist in any one, or combination of dimensions. Especially if by definition He is everywhere at once.

 

[createdtoworship]

It’s the definition of universe. The universe is all of space and time, and dimensions refer to space.

so you can prove to me, science included, empirically that there is no dimension outside of the universe? I have got to see this.

 

[createdtoworship]

Here is a thought: maybe everything that can exist does exist. The universe consists of a set of physical laws and states at various times that conform to those laws. So every set of physical laws coupled with states at various times that conform to those laws must exist.

There is no cause and effect. There is only solutions to constraints where one variable is time. I hope that makes sense, and I'm sure it is not a new proposal. There are other universes with the same physical laws but different states, and there are other universes with different physical laws and of different states. ... blah blah blah ... it's not a fully-formed idea.

so where did all those "other" universes come from? They either were made by someone or something, or they made them self. This is not a false dichotomy, there really are only two options here. So which is it?

 

[createdtoworship]

Ah. Had a lot of experience of beings "who exist outside of time," have you?
Do you have any evidence that such creatures are possible?

I make a complete argument for the supernatural in another thread, feel free to comment there:

The Moral Argument (revamped)

 

[gaara4158]

so you can prove to me, science included, empirically that there is no dimension outside of the universe? I have got to see this.

This is done logically, by definition, not scientifically. You’re thinking of “realm,” which is not the same thing as the four dimensions you refer to existing in the universe. And you would have to prove scientifically that other realms exist.