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Argument for God's existence.

Discussion in 'Christian Apologetics' started by createdtoworship, Apr 4, 2019.

  1. Ed1wolf

    Ed1wolf Well-Known Member

    +127
    Presbyterian
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    No, you misunderstand the argument from design. Sand was not "designed" in the sense that you are talking about. Sand comes into existence through natural law, ie orderly processes. Yes, the law was designed, but the outcome is a result of the law acting on matter, the molecules of the universe. But natural law can only reach a very low level of complexity and we have discovered the laws that create sand because of their relatively simplicity. However, life is a quantum leap in complexity beyond sand. You have interacting components and you have purposes built in to them and the structure of the organism. Such as ears are for hearing and eyes are for seeing. The evidence for single designer is the similarity of design. Notice that all mammals have bilateral symmetry and have other basic similarities. There are also odd little quirks such as the panda's thumb. Art experts can look at a painting and by studying the odd little quirks in the painting and the certain similar characteristics that the artist is known to do, can help determine that the painting has been done by one particular painter. So it is with living things. In fact, this overall similarity is also the foundation of the theory of evolution. If there were multiple designers, so that there was no similar blueprints for all living things, the theory of evolution would never have come into existence.
     
  2. BigV

    BigV Junior Member

    449
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    Point is, a sand was ultimately designed by a Creator who was several magnitudes higher than a designer of a watch. But if you are just looking at the two items, watch appears to be designed by a more sophisticated Creator.

    Okay, but how do you determine which requires a SUPERnatural Creator? Can you design a sand from scratch? I know I can't, so why not posit a supernatural creator for sand?

    Similarity of design could also be a product of a group of designers. Also, there are differences too. A lion is different from an antelope. So, perhaps the Lion Creator had a quarrel with an Antelope Creator and Antelope has to be chased by Lion as a result?
     
  3. Ed1wolf

    Ed1wolf Well-Known Member

    +127
    Presbyterian
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    True but the watchmaker also can make a broom to sweep sand out of his house. A broom is much simpler than a watch too. A sophisticated creator can create both simple and complex things depending on the purpose of each.


    If we can discover the natural laws that formed something then a supernatural creator may or may not be needed, but if there is no natural law that can form something then it most likely was formed by a supernatural or natural law transcending Cause or Creator. The natural laws that form sand are well understood, there is no natural law that can produce living things and even if there is we have no idea what it could be or how it works.

    Could be but unlikely. A group of designers generally dont produce little quirks in their designs, they generally try to go with the most efficient design. Even lions and antelopes are both created with cells, have bilateral symmetry, four legs, one brain, two eyes, reproduce sexually, and many other similarities. But they have two different functions and purposes. The antelope recycles plant matter, and the lion keeps the antelopes from overpopulating and recycles the antelopes. It is similar to Ford making a two door Mustang, and large family van. They both have the same designer or designers but they are for two different purposes.
     
  4. BigV

    BigV Junior Member

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    So, your watchmaker argument fails, because you have a very sophisticated creator creating sand, and much less sophisticated creators creating a watch. But you can't tell who is more sophisticated based on the product. In fact, the product (sand vs watch) makes it appear that the watch has been made by a more sophisticated creator.

    How have you determined that there IS NO natural law that can form something? Isn't it best to suspend judgment until there is more evidence? Why is "I don't know" such a terrible thing to say, especially if one doesn't truly know? Remember, we (humans) have a history of jumping to conclusion in regards to cretors. Lighting used to be the realm of the Gods. Now there is a natural explanation. As we know more and more about nature, we keep finding natural explanations. Chances are, the explanation for everything will be a natural one.

    Scientists don't use the language you have been using, in saying... "... there is no natural law that can produce living things...". Instead, scientists say..."there is no known law..." or "there is no evidence at this time of a natural law...".

    On the other hand, what is the evidence of a SUPERnatural? It seems you are using the gaps argument. We don't know any natural, therefore, SUPERnatural. And supernatural works like magic. Nothing is impossible, right?

    One reason scientists don't posit supernatural, is because it doesn't get them anywhere and it stops further inquiry. If medical scientists posited sin and God's causing disease, how many pill would we have on the market for various ailments? Why should you work on a pill if the cause of the disease is supernatural?

    Why have psychiatry if you really only need exorcisms?

    How do you know what a group of supernatural designers produce or don't produce? Seems to me, that if you can have one supernatural designer, you can have 1,000,001.

    Different functions and purpose could just be the unexpected end result of the designers fighting each other. Just look at politics today. US and Russia and China all have varying weapons designed to fight each other and keep a balance of power. Would you posit that the same designer worked on ALL weapons systems?
     
  5. LittleLambofJesus

    LittleLambofJesus Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git! Supporter

    +28,461
    United States
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    US-Libertarian
    Why not just say 100s of trillion years ago?

    Generally when a specific person or event is meant, the article "the" is used.

    The 1st verse of Genesis is w/o the article "the" which would read "in a beginning" not "in the beginning"...is that something of relevancy?

    The Ancient Hebrew Research Center

    Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

    Genesis 1:1 In [a] beginning 'Elohiym created/filled the heavens and the land.
    2 And the land became chaos/vain and void, and darkness over faces of deep. And a spirit of 'Elohim fluttering over faces of the waters

    1 בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים 1אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם 1וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ
    2 וְהָאָרֶץ הָיְתָה 1תֹהוְּ 2וָבֹהוְּ וְחֹשֶׁךְ עַל־פְּנֵי 3תְהֹום וְרוְּחַ אֱלֹהִים מְרַחֶפֶת עַל־פְּנֵי הַמָּיִם

    The Gap Theory | Biblical Science Institute

    From time to time, we receive questions about various aspects of Genesis. One that comes up frequently is the gap theory which asserts that there was an enormous gap of time between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2. The gap theory was one of the earlier attempts to reconcile the secular belief in deep time (millions of years) with the biblical timescale of around 6000 years. The gap theory does not stand up to scrutiny and has been thoroughly refuted. But since it still comes up from time to time, it is helpful to understand the position as well as its shortcomings.

    The Position

    The gap theory asserts that a large gap of time exists between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2, and that a lot of unrecorded events happened during this time. Advocates of this position often argue that verse two should be translated “And the Earth became formless and void…”, as if the Earth in verse 2 was quite different from the Earth that God initially created in verse 1
     
  6. NBB

    NBB Well-Known Member

    +567
    Uruguay
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    Single
    I think an infinite regress would become eternity.
     
  7. NBB

    NBB Well-Known Member

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    Why would you believe in any theory except to GOd.
     
  8. Tinker Grey

    Tinker Grey Wanderer Supporter

    +1,980
    Atheist
    I don't "believe" that theory. I accept it as a possibility.

    The advantage it has over deity is that it is consitent with the math that we have. At present, there is no way to test the multiverse, and, as I understand it, other hypotheses are consitent with the math as well. None of these are testable. So I don't "believe" any of them. They are possibilities.

    Everything about the universe that we've ever solved or understood has its roots in physical reality. Gods do not.
     
  9. Tinker Grey

    Tinker Grey Wanderer Supporter

    +1,980
    Atheist
    So? And that doesn't answer my questions.
     
  10. Dave Ellis

    Dave Ellis Contributor

    +777
    Atheist
    In Relationship
    CA-Conservatives
    There is no theory of god. God is at best a hypothesis.
     
  11. NBB

    NBB Well-Known Member

    +567
    Uruguay
    Christian
    Single
    An eternal always existing God, fits i guess in a infinite regress, since that is eternal
     
  12. NBB

    NBB Well-Known Member

    +567
    Uruguay
    Christian
    Single
    I did not say God has a scientific theory, but that people are willing to believe in the wackiest of 'theories' multiverse, aliens, except believing in God.
     
  13. Hawkins

    Hawkins Member Supporter

    +184
    Canada
    Christian
    Married
    How do you know?
     
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