Arghhhh!!!

[Cris413]

Nadiine has toned down a lot in this thread, but in the beginning of all the threads concerning universalism, she has torn people to shreds, yelled, screamed, attacked and been VERY consistent in arguing.... all in the name of trying to douse the flames of a so-called heresy. And all it accomplished was in getting peoples' backs up. You say she was baited into an unhealthy dialog, but we feel it was the reverse.

We all have our "feelings" and view points. The only point of view that really matters is God's.

He knows the condition of each of our hearts.

I would also like to point out...that when we feel convicted about something...it's quite easy to simply point a finger at someone else and redirect.

"Well, yes I did this...but hey...they did that."

However, I do have to admit that she has changed a great deal, and I give her credit for it. And I find it easier to post with her as well.

It's great you're developing an open mind but I can't help but consider you are still pretty focused on pointing a finger at Nadiine....

Let's just let go of it...give it to God...and move on shall we?

 

[Tavita]

We all have our "feelings" and view points. The only point of view that really matters is God's.

He knows the condition of each of our hearts.

I would also like to point out...that when we feel convicted about something...it's quite easy to simply point a finger at someone else and redirect.

"Well, yes I did this...but hey...they did that."



It's great you're developing an open mind but I can't help but consider you are still pretty focused on pointing a finger at Nadiine....

Let's just let go of it...give it to God...and move on shall we?

Still putting the barb in?

Please just take your own advice and drop it. This is my last word on the WHOLE matter.

 

[Ben12]

Tavita, later on, I'm going to send you a PM telling you a bit about my background and how I came to be the type of poster I am now. I think it will help us work through our differences. I have no ill-feelings towards you or anyone else on this board. You are all brothers and sisters in Christ and I love you all. I may speak harshly at times, and I have in the past and still do, but I am human and can err and for my abruptness and harsh tones, I ask forgiveness as well. But just because I am harsh and abrupt and "in your face" at times, doesn't mean I hate you. A lot of people take it that way and that's just not the case.

Yes I have a bias not against the so called retribution of God if you are trying to force me to believe God is going to force billions in an eternal torture chamber. No you are wrong; I totally understand that God will punish (prune/chastise) the wicked; I also believe punish (prune/chastise) the just; BUT NOT eternally.

I do not believe in an unjust God; I do believe in a just and holy and balance God. Eternal torture is a false doctrine placed in scripture by so called christian interpreters that also wanted to promote pagan beliefs of eternal torture. Hell is not in the original language and words such as eternal, everlasting are misinterpretations; they simply me age or ages. The Lake of Fire is a spiritual fire; not literal.

 

[Ben12]

Still putting the barb in?

Please just take your own advice and drop it. This is my last word on the WHOLE matter.

amen

 

[Tavita]

Yes I have a bias not against the so called retribution of God if you are trying to force me to believe God is going to force billions in an eternal torture chamber. No you are wrong; I totally understand that God will punish (prune/chastise) the wicked; I also believe punish (prune/chastise) the just; BUT NOT eternally.

I do not believe in an unjust God; I do believe in a just and holy and balance God. Eternal torture is a false doctrine placed in scripture by so called christian interpreters that also wanted to promote pagan beliefs of eternal torture. Hell is not in the original language and words such as eternal, everlasting are misinterpretations; they simply me age or ages. The Lake of Fire is a spiritual fire; not literal.

In a nutshell, Ben.

I don't know why people keep on thinking we don't believe in God's justice or His judgments and how severe they are. We all have a sense of justice that God has put within us, but in that justice I would rather a criminal be punished for the crimes committed and then be rehabilitated and restored to society... which is what the intent of the punishments in the Law were for too.

 

[Tavita]

Tavita, later on, I'm going to send you a PM telling you a bit about my background and how I came to be the type of poster I am now. I think it will help us work through our differences. I have no ill-feelings towards you or anyone else on this board. You are all brothers and sisters in Christ and I love you all. I may speak harshly at times, and I have in the past and still do, but I am human and can err and for my abruptness and harsh tones, I ask forgiveness as well. But just because I am harsh and abrupt and "in your face" at times, doesn't mean I hate you. A lot of people take it that way and that's just not the case.

You are forgiven too, and if you write I'll share with you my own background and why I find it hard to handle harshness and abruptness.

I don't hate any of you either, you're my brother's and sister's in the Lord.

 

[Zecryphon]

I disagree...this parable is a warning against becoming so overgrown that that the enemy takes up residense on you.

As yes Ben...in the parable of the sower...those seeds fell by the wayside...

Question is...when we pass by these waysided seeds in our walk...do we crush them under the weight of our vast knowledge? Or do we pick them up, plant them and water them and trust God will provide the increase?

Praise God if one of His children gets to the wayside seed before the birds of the air feast on them.

And while, were discussing birds...yes we are flesh...but we are to walk in the Spirit. We may not be able to keep a bird from flying over our heads...but we can certainly keep them from building a nest there.

"We may not be able to keep a bird from flying over our heads...but we can certainly keep them from building a nest there."

I never thought I'd see the day when someone would quote Luther here.

 

[Cris413]

Still putting the barb in?

Please just take your own advice and drop it. This is my last word on the WHOLE matter.

My thoughts were merely an observation. Certainly not meant as a "barb" and I'm sorry it felt that way...

Peace be with you

Ps...it's good to see a peaceful air filling the room....

 

[Zecryphon]

Yes I have a bias not against the so called retribution of God if you are trying to force me to believe God is going to force billions in an eternal torture chamber. No you are wrong; I totally understand that God will punish (prune/chastise) the wicked; I also believe punish (prune/chastise) the just; BUT NOT eternally.

I do not believe in an unjust God; I do believe in a just and holy and balance God. Eternal torture is a false doctrine placed in scripture by so called christian interpreters that also wanted to promote pagan beliefs of eternal torture. Hell is not in the original language and words such as eternal, everlasting are misinterpretations; they simply me age or ages. The Lake of Fire is a spiritual fire; not literal.

"Yes I have a bias not against the so called retribution of God if you are trying to force me to believe God is going to force billions in an eternal torture chamber."

The scriptures say this, not me. I am reiterating the truth contained there and you are fighting it. So just who are you fighting against? It isn't me.

"No you are wrong;"

Prove it. You haven't yet. Merely saying I'm wrong does not prove that I am.

"I totally understand that God will punish (prune/chastise) the wicked; I also believe punish (prune/chastise) the just; BUT NOT eternally."

Why would God punish the just? Where are the scriptures that support all will be punished whether they are just or not and that all will not be punished for eternity? Until you post some scriptures that state this, in context, you have nothing but your opinion.

"I do not believe in an unjust God; I do believe in a just and holy and balance God. Eternal torture is a false doctrine placed in scripture by so called christian interpreters that also wanted to promote pagan beliefs of eternal torture."

Every word of scripture is God-breathed... do you disagree with these words of 2 Timothy 3:16? You must really believe in a weak god if you believe God can not protect the truth of His word against some interpreters who have an agenda that contradicts His.

"Hell is not in the original language and words such as eternal, everlasting are misinterpretations; they simply me age or ages. The Lake of Fire is a spiritual fire; not literal."

Prove it. You haven't yet. Forget the word Hell, it's only a symbol anyway right? It's just a word that conveys an idea. Since you're so hung up on the word age, instead of eternity, how long is an age?

 

[Ben12]

Darkness comes from men’s mind be it religious or carnal; there is only one light that is Christ. Yes and so are your post full of bias. I do not believe in religion; Jesus rejected the Jews religion; what an awesome pattern for me to reject main stream christianity. There is a true Church (ecclesia); which is Christ with in us (The Spirit of truth/that is the last place main stream religion will place their faith);as well as a false church Baby lon. God uses baby lon for it says that Baby lon is a golden cub in the hands of the Lord; BUT Baby lon is not the narrow way; it is the broadway; Christ is the narrow way; without all these preconceived doctrines of damnations..


God is not concerned with time; time is a mortal issue; it is God’s timing. God could take what ever He wants to accomplish His will; you see His will, will be done on earth as it is in heaven; your earth, my earth, the whole earth.





"(Anti anointing/anti Christ means the same thing. BUT we know the Spirit of truth is the ONLY source of truth. The corn the wine the oil; it is that perfect delicate balance or there is error."
Back to basics; let us look a little deeper. The Greek word for "assembling" is EPISUNAGOGE. The word, literally, is a verb meaning to synagogue. It is a compound of the Greek prefix EPI with the word SUNAGOGE from which we get our transliterated English word Synagogue. EPI means super- imposition - that which is above, higher than, highest, upon. SUNAGOGE means a meeting, assembly, or gathering. Putting these two words together, EPI- SUNAGOGE means THE ABOVE SYNAGOGUE, THE HIGHER MEETING, THE HIGHEST ASSEMBLY, THE HIGHER-THAN-ALL-GATHERINGS! It bespeaks of something far greater than merely collecting so many breathing bodies together in one place. It is a meeting in a higher realm, on a higher plane, in the high places of the Spirit, and in the heights of Truth. It is a gathering together in a dimension above. It indicates an assembling IN THE SPIRIT, as Paul also testified, "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:6). Tens of thousands, yea, tens of millions of believers gather together in "church buildings" every Sunday morning, and because they make the effort to get out of bed, get the family ready, and drive off to a warm pew, they are convinced that they have met the requirements of the divine fiat: "Forsake not the assembling of your selves together." I have plenty of teachers; who God has led me to; the difference is they have an anointing from God and not religion. I believe there is a real spiritual Church; I also believe there are also carnal churches, intercultural churches, and intellectual churches and the list goes on. God is a spirit not a brain. BUT what does the Bible say how God choices his anointed?

David was king; He was God’s anointed King; not like Saul who was also anointed by God; but chosen by the people; like many ministries in the church (little c) realm today. David was one of those special people God called, anointed and was anointed as child. Today’s ministry is chosen by men. I have found men of God that I know anointed by the deepness of their understanding not because they have been voted in or out by some church committee. David walked for many years and knew He had an anointing; but he kept it to himself and understood that Saul was God’s anointed; that is until the appointed time. I think we are better off to wait for God to anoint God’s chosen vessel then to anoint our own. Also let us not forget Solomon who was also anointed of God; but because of his marring and turning his heart to false idols he became corrupt. Reminds me of all the different religions out there that man has married into; there is only one way; Christ with in.

?
Is God not a spirit; God created the world both natural as well as spiritual; is the end of God’s process natural, carnal?


"God’s spirit burns in believer now that is why on the day of Pentecost believer got cloven tongues of fire;"

No the fire was a s natural as you and I are carnal; BUT its message is spirit and truth. Who cares about cloven tongues of fire 2000 years ago; that came to pass. BUT God’s Word is spiritual; full of hidden spiritual deepness; mysteries (Gk) sacred secret)



It is not what I have to say about these symbolism and mysteries; what is the Bible saying; what is God saying? You act as if these words are not even in scripture.


.
This does not mean I do not understand the past 2000 years; all of us CU have come out of Baby lon.



The Scriptural source for the conception of "the lake of fire" lies in Gen_19:24, where already the fire and the brimstone occur together, while the locality of the catastrophe described is the neighborhood of the Dead Sea. The association of the Dead Sea with this fearful judgment of God, together with the desolate appearance of the place, rendered it a striking figure for the scene of eschatological retribution. The two other Old Testament passages which have "fire and brimstone" (Psa_11:6; Eze_38:22) are dependent on the Gen passage, with which they have the figure of "raining" in common.
Where is the Lake of Fire and the second death mention above? Fire is mentioned all thought the bible; brimstone simply means sulfur?

" .
And where did you get the above; the word Revelation means unveiling; where does it say it is about the end of the world? More carnal religious dogma not based on scripture but mans interpretation.

"It was a spiritual book; because John was in Spirit on the Lord’s Day."

What do you mean by this?
I thought you were a Christian, you do not understand spiritual?

"As well as it is a book of spiritual symbolism; and is not literal"



Actually it was Revelations 1:1 not my opinion; where do you get your source? The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; ‘signified” or signs and symbols. The Book Revelations can only be understood not as a book of prophecy, or literally; but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible.


"Yes there are literal Churches or assemblies; but there is a deep spiritual hidden mystery (Gk) sacred secret)"


There can be nothing literal in a spiritual book or a book of symbolism. If you say the entire book is symbolic then it only stands to reason that the assemblies and churches contained therein are symbols as well. You can't pick and choose when it's literal or when it's spiritual whenever you feel like it.
Yes those Churches were real Churches; but like in all things spiritual God uses natural earthy things to show us a much deeper and awesome message.


"Many brother’s in the Lord try to spiritualize one part of Revelations, and then they will literalize another section when it fits their understanding; I see it totally as a spiritual book even when I am unsure of some of its meaning."

Actually I totally disagree; revelation is a awesome deep spiritual Book and is very much a positive Book. Check out Ray Prinzing’s “Revelations’ a Positive Book” on the Web

​

​

If that is that is true then how come God put the verse is the very first verse in the book; or foundation to which the book should be interpreted. Where do you get your source for interpretation; I know some dead church member.

​

"The Book Revelations can only be understood not as a book of prophecy, or literally; but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible."​

More man religion trying to control the deep things of God.

​

"religion and understandings in the Bible. If it were possible I believe if man could put the understandings in full understanding of the Book of Revelations in writing it would fill a library."​

​

 

[Ben12]

Got to go but here is it speaks of punishing the just:

God created all people to include all sinners; we are all under the curse of Adam to sin until God draws/drags us. I will also add even when that happens we are still under the bondage of sin. This can best be demonstrated by all the christians/pastors who are child molesters, wife beaters etc.

How do we reconcile these two opposite forces (love and hate; good and evil). How, on the one hand, can we say that God loves all men, yet on the other hand declare certain “doom” on those who do not repent of their sin? There is no doubt in my mind that God will indeed put an end to every wicked thought, motive, and deed, but this begs the question “Will God also put an end to the poor wretched soul who is guilty of such atrocities?” If God “damns” the sinner forever, how can we really say that He loves all men? Does He love “sinners” now, but hate them after He pronounces His judgment? If our premise is true that “God loves the sinner, but hates the sin,” is it possible for Him to accomplish the destruction of sin without the element of eternal torture? Is the “orthodox” church right when it says that most men will be “damned” forever with absolutely no hope for salvation?

The Church misunderstands the purpose of God’s judgments, and consequently, misrepresents His character to the world. Rather than viewing all of God’s judgments and punishments from the perspective of the “spiritual man,” Christians have instead interpreted them out of the “natural man”—a man desiring retribution against his enemies. Most of us have been taught that the “natural man” spoken of by Paul in 1 Cor. 2:14 applies only to unredeemed man, however, Christians are just as capable of thinking and walking in the natural (carnal) realm. One needs only to look at the current state of the church with all of its division and strife to see that this is true. This is why Paul exhorts us to “renew our minds” and to “walk in the Spirit.” It is for this very reason why I believe the Church has embraced the false doctrine of never-ending punishment. The “natural man” simply cannot understand the things of the Spirit, and so it is this same natural man who has ruled over the “new man” and prevented us from seeing the true purpose for God’s judgments.
There is a very simple and scriptural explanation to what appears to be an irreconcilable dilemma, which “if we have ears to hear,” will explain how God’s love and His judgments perfectly compliment each other. The Bible is filled with metaphors, parables, and symbolism, which if not properly interpreted in the Spirit, can lead us away from the truth instead of toward it.

This is the same mistake people make when trying to reconcile God’s love with the pronouncement of His judgments. Many read the Bible and see two contradictory views of God: first, the fiery God of judgment as described in the Old Testament, and second, the Christ of love as demonstrated in the New Testament. Some, confused by this apparent contradiction, reject the Bible as the inerrant Word of God. However, when we study the subject of God’s judgments, we must not take the “hard” passages by themselves, but instead, must study them in the light of God’s enduring love and mercy. Take them alone, and we have a god whose forgiveness and mercy is limited; but take them in light of God’s everlasting love and compassion and we see that there is no contradiction at all—the glove of God’s judgment fits perfectly over His hand of love.

Let there be no doubt that God will destroy the wicked and all his evil works (Ps. 145:20; Ps. 7:9), but how can God judge the sinner yet not contradict His love for all men? The answer to this question is so very simple, and yet has been grasped by so few: God will destroy all sinners by making them friends! Paul tells us that this is exactly what happened to us.

Rom. 5:10​

For if while being enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life; ​

​

We were once by nature, children of wrath (Eph. 2:3), and the sons of disobedience, (Eph. 2:2), and in fact, in our flesh, we are still yet enemies of the Cross. (Phil. 3:18) But just as God brought us from the depths of our despair and is in the process of changing us from an enemy to a friend, think it not a strange thing for God, who is rich in mercy and partial to none, to do this same work in other men in the ages to come. Col. 1:20 says that Christ will reconcile all things (lit. remove all enmity between two parties) to the Father by the blood of His Cross. God’s purpose for judgment is not to torment eternally, but to destroy all the evil works of the flesh, and when this great work of judgment is completed, all sinners along with their wickedness will have been totally destroyed—forever! This process is not a pleasant one, nor will God spare any torment needed to accomplish His goal. The self-will and stubbornness of man will be completely broken by God’s righteous judgment, and what will come forth will be the “restoration of all things” (Acts 3:21) as every created thing will be brought to a full knowledge of God through the Cross of Jesus Christ. Phil. 2:10-11 says “that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” 1 Cor. 15:28 says that when this happens God will be “all in all.” There will not be a trace of sin or death in the entirety of God’s universe. What a day of rejoicing that will be!!

​

​

​

 

[Ben12]

Last statement; got to go.

I love your little bullets as if it is a discussion; it is not it is just barely touching on each subject. We are all over the place instead of constraining on each subject. By the way I do not believe in a weak God; I believe because of man’s carnality or because of man’s religious bias God has sent strong supernatural working of deception; so you can believe your lie.

2Th 2:11
(ALT) And for this reason God will send to them a supernatural working of deception, for them to believe the lie,
(ASV) And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie:
(CEV) So God will make sure that they are fooled into believing a lie.
(CLV) And therefore God will be sending them an operation of deception, for them to believe the falsehood,
(DRB)(2:10) Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying:
(EMTV) And because of this, God will send them strong delusion, in order for them to believe the lie,
(ESV) Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
(Geneva) And therefore God shall send them strong delusion, that they should beleave lies,
(GNB) And so God sends the power of error to work in them so that they believe what is false.
(GW) That's why God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe a lie.
(ISV) For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.
(JPS)
(KJ2000) And for this cause God shall send them a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(KJVA) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(KJVR) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(LITV) And because of this, God will send to them a working of error, for them to believe the lie,
(LONT) For this cause, God will send them strong delusion, that they may believe a lie;
(MKJV) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie,
(Murdock) Therefore God will send upon them the operation of deception, that they may believe a lie;
(RYLT-NT) and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,
(The Scriptures '98+)And for this reason Elohim sends them a working of delusion, for them to believe the falsehood,1Footnote: 1Eze. 20:25, John 9:39, John 12:40, Acts 7:42, Rom. 1:24-28.
(Webster) And for this cause God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(WNT) And for this reason God sends them a misleading influence that they may believe the lie;

 

[Zecryphon]

"Darkness comes from men’s mind be it religious or carnal;"

Darkness is the absence of light. It's source has nothing
to do with carnal or religious.

"there is only one light that is Christ. Yes and so are your post full of bias."

I never said they weren't. You are the one who claims that all Christians and churches are biased except you.

"I do not believe in religion; Jesus rejected the Jews religion;"

This is absolutely wrong! What Jesus rejected is the pride of the Pharisees and Sadducees. They prided themselves on their words of wisdom and their actions instead of being humbled by God and ruled by Him. Jesus observed the Jewish faith all throughout the Bible. Examples of this are seen everywhere, when you read the Bible lieterally and take God at His word.

"what an awesome pattern for me to reject main stream christianity. There is a true Church (ecclesia); which is Christ with in us (The Spirit of truth/that is the last place main stream religion will place their faith);"

Christians place their faith in Christ, hence the name, they do not place it in a local church body. You're telling people up above that they should place faith in themselves because that's where Christ is. Christians place their faith in Christ, not in themselves. Your advice is dangerous and will lead to peril for many a Christian.

"God is not concerned with time; time is a mortal issue; it is God’s timing."


I'm pleased to see you say that. God deals in eternity and since He does so, when He punishes, it stands to reason that when He does punish, the punishment is for eternity.


"God could take what ever He wants to accomplish His will; you see His will, will be done on earth as it is in heaven; your earth, my earth, the whole earth"

Yeah, as long as He doesn't punish anyone for eternity right?


"(Anti anointing/anti Christ means the same thing."


No it doesn't. Here is yet another example of you not understanding the meaning of words. Christ does not mean anointing. It means messiah. Messiah means anointing or anointed. You can't just interchange words as you see fit.




"I have plenty of teachers; who God has led me to; the difference is they have an anointing from God and not religion."

You're so biased against an assembled body of believers and their practices that I don't believe you could tell the difference.


"David was king; He was God’s anointed King; not like Saul who was also anointed by God; but chosen by the people; like many ministries in the church (little c) realm today. David was one of those special people God called, anointed and was anointed as child. Today’s ministry is chosen by men."


So you're telling us that no one feels a calling from God to join the ministry or church today? Good luck proving that one.


"I have found men of God that I know anointed by the deepness of their understanding not because they have been voted in or out by some church committee."


Ah, so it's the voting on of pastors by the church body that you're against. This is commanded by scripture as well. Man you're really fighting God on a lot of issues. LOL


"David walked for many years and knew He had an anointing; but he kept it to himself and understood that Saul was God’s anointed; that is until the appointed time. I think we are better off to wait for God to anoint God’s chosen vessel then to anoint our own."


You are not the one who decides who is annointed of God and who isn't though. You're relying on your own understanding of who is annointed to be your guide.


"Also let us not forget Solomon who was also anointed of God; but because of his marring and turning his heart to false idols he became corrupt. Reminds me of all the different religions out there that man has married into; there is only one way; Christ with in."


You're coming to the scriptures with a pre-conceived bias and twisting the scriptures to support your admonition of the problems that plague the church today. Read them for what they say, not for what you'd like them to say.


"God’s spirit burns in believer now that is why on the day of Pentecost believer got cloven tongues of fire;"

"No the fire was a s natural as you and I are carnal;"


Then it was a literal fire as we have claimed and you are now admitting we are right. Thank you.


"BUT its message is spirit and truth."


That may be, but you can not take that to mean that the fire was not literal fire but a spiritual fire. To properly convey your idea, you should say something like: It was a literal fire that contained a spiritual truth.


"Who cares about cloven tongues of fire 2000 years ago; that came to pass."


I can't believe I'm reading this from a so-called Christian.


"BUT God’s Word is spiritual; full of hidden spiritual deepness; mysteries (Gk) sacred secret)"


Which you can not properly discern, because all the deeper spiritual meanings you come up with, contradict God's written word, they do not enhance it as a deeper meaning typically would.

"It is not what I have to say about these symbolism and mysteries; what is the Bible saying; what is God saying? You act as if these words are not even in scripture."


Universalism is not in scripture.

"This does not mean I do not understand the past 2000 years; all of us CU have come out of Baby lon."


Why would you understand it or even try to understand it. You've already said that you ignore it, so it has no value to you in your spiritual walk whatsoever. I have news for you Ben, you have exchanged the truth of God for a lie. You have repeatedly demonstrated that you can not properly read and interpret scripture. You think words mean things they do not mean and build your doctrine upon the faulty foundations you alone have laid.

"Where is the Lake of Fire and the second death mention above? Fire is mentioned all thought the bible; brimstone simply means sulfur?"


Get an ISBE (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia) and start reading dude. I've corrected enough of your misconceptions for one day. .

"And where did you get the above; the word Revelation means unveiling; where does it say it is about the end of the world? More carnal religious dogma not based on scripture but mans interpretation."


Read the book Ben, what else could it be talking about? Plauges, judgments from God, all these things will come to pass, the old earth will pass away, a new earth will be formed, the battle of Armageddon will take place, the sinners will be judged, the righteous rewarded. If that's not the end of this world, what is it?

"It was a spiritual book; because John was in Spirit on the Lord’s Day."

What do you mean by this?

"I thought you were a Christian, you do not understand spiritual?"


There's a couple of ways to take that verse based upon your understanding of the word spiritual. Since your understanding of words depends, not upon what they actually mean, but what you think they mean, it's important we establish this.

"As well as it is a book of spiritual symbolism; and is not literal"

"Actually it was Revelations 1:1 not my opinion; where do you get your source?"


Revelations 1:1 does not exist. Revelation 1:1 does. Why do you insist on typing this word the wrong way? Is this one more of those little quirks you have, like with your Baby lon nonsense?


"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; ‘signified” or signs and symbols. The Book Revelations can only be understood not as a book of prophecy, or literally; but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible."


I've already explained what signified means previously I'm not going into it again. It does not mean signs and symbols. You think it means something other than what it means, and that is the source of your misunderstanding.

"Yes there are literal Churches or assemblies; but there is a deep spiritual hidden mystery (Gk) sacred secret)"

There can be nothing literal in a spiritual book or a book of symbolism. If you say the entire book is symbolic then it only stands to reason that the assemblies and churches contained therein are symbols as well. You can't pick and choose when it's literal or when it's spiritual whenever you feel like it.

"Actually I totally disagree; revelation is a awesome deep spiritual Book and is very much a positive Book. Check out Ray Prinzing’s “Revelations’ a Positive Book” on the Web"

On one condition. You in turn read Ray Comfort's book, Hell's Best Kept Secret.​

"If that is that is true then how come God put the verse is the very first verse in the book; or foundation to which the book should be interpreted."


That line has nothing to do with how to read that book. Jesus is not giving a lesson in Hermeneutics here, which you desperately need in the worst way.


"Where do you get your source for interpretation; I know some dead church member."


You have no clue about where I get my information from. You have unfounded speculation and nothing more. Just when we were getting along so nicely you have to go and pull this childish stunt. Grow up and converse like a man and drop the childish antics of putting words in people's mouths. I'm a Christian first and a Lutheran second.


You have zero reading comprehension and it has been proved numerous times in this thread by me and by others. Kick the meat Ben, it's not a source of wisdom for you, but a source of pride and it's killing you, you're just too blind to see it. Go back to the milk and learn to crawl before you walk, and certainly before you try running with scriptural truths. By the way if it wasn't for Luther and other reformers like him, you wouldn't have the freedom you have to read the scriptures for yourself, they'd still be under the lock and key of the Catholic church. So the next time you wanna refer to a great Christian as some dead guy, remember what those dead guys did for you and say thank you. It won't kill you. In fact, it'd show some humility on your part instead of exhibiting humliating behavior.

 

[Zecryphon]

Last statement; got to go.

I love your little bullets as if it is a discussion; it is not it is just barely touching on each subject. We are all over the place instead of constraining on each subject. By the way I do not believe in a weak God; I believe because of man’s carnality or because of man’s religious bias God has sent strong supernatural working of deception; so you can believe your lie.

2Th 2:11
(ALT) And for this reason God will send to them a supernatural working of deception, for them to believe the lie,
(ASV) And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie:
(CEV) So God will make sure that they are fooled into believing a lie.
(CLV) And therefore God will be sending them an operation of deception, for them to believe the falsehood,
(DRB)(2:10) Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying:
(EMTV) And because of this, God will send them strong delusion, in order for them to believe the lie,
(ESV) Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
(Geneva) And therefore God shall send them strong delusion, that they should beleave lies,
(GNB) And so God sends the power of error to work in them so that they believe what is false.
(GW) That's why God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe a lie.
(ISV) For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.
(JPS)
(KJ2000) And for this cause God shall send them a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(KJVA) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(KJVR) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(LITV) And because of this, God will send to them a working of error, for them to believe the lie,
(LONT) For this cause, God will send them strong delusion, that they may believe a lie;
(MKJV) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie,
(Murdock) Therefore God will send upon them the operation of deception, that they may believe a lie;
(RYLT-NT) and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,
(The Scriptures '98+)And for this reason Elohim sends them a working of delusion, for them to believe the falsehood,1Footnote: 1Eze. 20:25, John 9:39, John 12:40, Acts 7:42, Rom. 1:24-28.
(Webster) And for this cause God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(WNT) And for this reason God sends them a misleading influence that they may believe the lie;

"I love your little bullets as if it is a discussion; it is not it is just barely touching on each subject."

They're not bullets they're responses to your misinformation. But call it what you will.

"We are all over the place instead of constraining on each subject."

Not me. I'm very focused on what you write and the errors contained therein.

"By the way I do not believe in a weak God; I believe because of man’s carnality or because of man’s religious bias God has sent strong supernatural working of deception; so you can believe your lie.""

I'll believe the word of God as taught to me by the Holy Spirit and properly appointed teachers. You can continue reading the scriptures, relying upon your own bias and understanding and the revelation of the spirit you talk to whom is of the devil, the father of lies. Cuz that's all I see in your posts, lies of the devil that clearly contradict God's word. I'll pray for you. It's all I have left.

 

[fifi]

I think that if you dont believe in hell are saten then you cannot believe in God are the word of God. saten is real just like God is real and heaven. saten was booted out of heaven so we knoe that he is real.

 

[Carey]

I cannot even begin to describe what a monumental headache I now have reading through this thread.

To be honest…I personally do not fully understand Heaven and Hell and all in between. The only thing I’m absolutely certain of is that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for all believers’ sin and whatever the penalty is…we’re exempt from it.

Those who refuse Jesus Christ will not be exempt. Period.

What I would like to believe…is that the Lake of Fire…the second death is exactly that…complete death of body and soul. I’d like to believe those thrown into the Lake of Fire would be completely obliterated into a complete and total non-existence.

That’s what I would like to believe.

I do not want to consider that ANYONE would be in an eternal torment.

I would also like to believe that eternal torment is merely separation from God. Not some continual burning by a literal fire.

Whether I want to believe it or not…there is a significant amount of Scripture that certainly describes eternal damnation and torment. Which is the destination for those who refuse salvation through Jesus Christ.

In reading through this thread… Zecryphon has remained consistent and clear in his posting which he has also supported with appropriate Scripture.

Ben12 – here we are again…And I will express to you again the same concerns as I’ve had in the past regarding your posts….

Be careful you don’t become so puffed up in your pride that you explode. Please don’t forget…while you’re so focused on your “superior” knowledge and understanding…that it’s not about you. It’s about God and serving Him according to His good will and purpose. It’s not ALL about your personal edification.

Whether you like to consider it or not…”Baby lon” and the unsaved are why we’re here. We are here to be salt and light. We are here to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. IN TERMS THAT ARE UNDERSTANDABLE in truth and love to EVERYONE on every level.

Deeper levels of understanding will never contradict the plain meaning. It will only add to it…NEVER change it nor subtract from it.

And Tavita…I am totally blown away. The behavior and baiting for arguments sake I’ve seen from you in this thread and others….UNEXCUSABLE. There is nothing you could say from this point on that I could take to heart because of your lack of heart in your posts.

I’m amazed that Zecryphon kept his patience with you and Ben for as long as he did.

It would have been great if I could have gleaned some understanding from this thread which I admittedly lack…

But I tell you both Tavita and Ben12…you have not given God any glory in your posts. Exactly the opposite. You’ve glorified yourselves and your own understanding.

There is no way anyone could be edified or receive any benefit from your words.

PS...Bottom line....I TRUST GOD

I have for years believed that the second death menat just that.
I always thought only the devil and fallen angels would be tormented forever because God made them immortal they could not be destroyed.
But if this is the case the false prophet and beast must also be fallen angels ( not human ).
Revelations 20 : 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them,
10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

 

[Zecryphon]

Last statement; got to go.

I love your little bullets as if it is a discussion; it is not it is just barely touching on each subject. We are all over the place instead of constraining on each subject. By the way I do not believe in a weak God; I believe because of man’s carnality or because of man’s religious bias God has sent strong supernatural working of deception; so you can believe your lie.

2Th 2:11
(ALT) And for this reason God will send to them a supernatural working of deception, for them to believe the lie,
(ASV) And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie:
(CEV) So God will make sure that they are fooled into believing a lie.
(CLV) And therefore God will be sending them an operation of deception, for them to believe the falsehood,
(DRB)(2:10) Therefore God shall send them the operation of error, to believe lying:
(EMTV) And because of this, God will send them strong delusion, in order for them to believe the lie,
(ESV) Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
(Geneva) And therefore God shall send them strong delusion, that they should beleave lies,
(GNB) And so God sends the power of error to work in them so that they believe what is false.
(GW) That's why God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe a lie.
(ISV) For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie.
(JPS)
(KJ2000) And for this cause God shall send them a strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(KJVA) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(KJVR) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(LITV) And because of this, God will send to them a working of error, for them to believe the lie,
(LONT) For this cause, God will send them strong delusion, that they may believe a lie;
(MKJV) And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie,
(Murdock) Therefore God will send upon them the operation of deception, that they may believe a lie;
(RYLT-NT) and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,
(The Scriptures '98+)And for this reason Elohim sends them a working of delusion, for them to believe the falsehood,1Footnote: 1Eze. 20:25, John 9:39, John 12:40, Acts 7:42, Rom. 1:24-28.
(Webster) And for this cause God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
(WNT) And for this reason God sends them a misleading influence that they may believe the lie;

I have posted the surrounding verses so that it may be taken in context.

2Th 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 2Th 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 2Th 2:11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 2Th 2:12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Nadiine]

OH DEAR GOD IN HEAVEN, HAS THIS TURNEED INTO YET ANOTHER THREAD THAT UNIVERSALISM IS RUNNING RAMPANT IN?
(i notice the SAME players are here bright & early to dig in with it yet again too).
OH LORD help me.

Can I ask why in theee world people AREN'T PREACHING THE GOSPEL instead of incessantly rehashing Universalism and how God is just SO loving and kind that He just wouldn't harm a fly in the way the bible describes?

Since God DOES allow little children to be molested, battered, cancer-ridden & starved in His divine sovereignty, then God CAN condemn a soul eternally in a place of punishment.

If YOUR love wouldn't allow these things to happen to an innocent little boy or girl, then you cannot know how GOD'S ATTRIBUTE OF LOVE AND MERCY OPERATE IN THEIR DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY.
I for one wouldn't let one animal get hurt or killed on this planet if I were God - let GOD be God and leave JHis judgment to HIM as HE clarifies it in scripture (repeatedly).

universalism defeats the necessity of salvation in this lifetime.
IT IS HERESY. "You MUST be born again".
*fainting*

 

[Nadiine]

"
But there is no balance in your spiritual life as you do not sit under qualified teachers and you have forsaken the assembling of the saints. We are commanded not to forsake the assembly as written in Hebrews 10:25. If you are a member of the body of Christ, as you claim to be, you are commanded to assemble together with other members of the body and receive sound instruction from an appointed teacher, who has been called by God to that role.

If you notice, this is the mark of MOST people that bring false doctrines; they're unchurched and refuse to sit under spiritual authority of others.

THEY are their own teachers and they seek people TO TEACH instead.
God has always kept a system of corporate gathering with a STRUCTURE OF AUTHORITY WITHIN IT. Paul gave us all the offices and how to judge correctly within the church.

Instead, they stay out of the churches and seek to lead others AWAY From the church. If people can't see it for what it is, they need God or discernment.... or both.
Only the TRUE God teaches them PRIVATELY AND INDIVIDUALLY. The "secret truth" kinda stuff... cults use this too.
God teaches ME truth... the others are evil organizations that God left to their error...

I call it rebellion to God's established order for His flock. Again, I don't claim people have to be in church 24/7 - go ahead and skip a week or 2 - my issue is towards the Rebellion against any regular worship that should be a red flag to a Christian's spirit.

Anyways, this hits the nail on the head. And I REFUSE to let these types of people BE MY SPIRITUAL TEACHERS when they shun spiritual authority over themselves!

 

[Nadiine]

Yes I have a bias not against the so called retribution of God if you are trying to force me to believe God is going to force billions in an eternal torture chamber. No you are wrong; I totally understand that God will punish (prune/chastise) the wicked; I also believe punish (prune/chastise) the just; BUT NOT eternally.

I do not believe in an unjust God; I do believe in a just and holy and balance God. Eternal torture is a false doctrine placed in scripture by so called christian interpreters that also wanted to promote pagan beliefs of eternal torture. Hell is not in the original language and words such as eternal, everlasting are misinterpretations; they simply me age or ages. The Lake of Fire is a spiritual fire; not literal.

BEN .. it's not about "what you believe"; YOUR PROBLEM IS THAT YOU ARE JUDGING WHAT IS JUST AND UNJUST IN YOUR HUMAN 'WISDOM'.

You are putting your HUMAN FEELINGS of justice and fairness and forcing them on a Holy, Just GOD! How can you say it's UNJUST for God to punish them eternally?

As I asked in a prev. post, would YOU stand by and let a little girl be molested?
(please say NO!). Would I? no!
Would you sit by and watch innocent kids starving next door to you without intervening? listen to them being brutally beaten?

Would God?
​

You cannot possibly know how God would JUDGE sin and sinners if you answered NO to any of my above questions to you. My point is, WE cannot sit by and ignore evil when we can step in to stop it - God COULD stop it, yet lets people suffer by it every single day for thousands of years.

HOW CAN YOU ASSUME WHAT IS JUST AND UNJUST when God lets what we see continue daily? You said He's loving & merciful & gracious - so how does THAT MESH with the evil we see going on? SOVEREIGNTY AND A PLAN.
God's WILL is that none sin too --- but He permits it to continue and permits many people to be tortured and murdered in the process.
Could God stop the Darfur genocide? Sure, He could. HAS HE? not yet. Girls are raped there all the time - they're starved and homeless!
How are YOU judging what Love & mercy are in your human capacity - yet claiming God CAN'T condemn eternally???

He has a plan and allows evil in His permissive will - yet you want to tell us that God CANNOT punish Evil eternally bcuz He's love?
MY idea of love and His aren't quite the same - BUT I'M NOT GOD. Who am I to say God's version of love isn't as loving as mine?

& Do you realize that sin doesn't get "removed" unless Jesus' blood covers it to remove it? SIN CONTINUES TO EXIST, it's not "taken away" from the lost. They "die in their sin", it's never remitted or removed bcuz Jesus' blood wasn't accepted as their sacrifice for it.

IT IS JUST FOR GOD TO ETERNALLY CONTAIN THE SINNERS WHO DIE IN THER SIN WHICH NEVER GETS REMOVED. GOD CONTAINS THEIR SOULS AND THEIR SIN IN GEHENNA WHERE DEATH AND HELL ARE THROWN WITH SATAN TO STAY FOREVER.
Sin remains locked up there never to get back out.

THE SINS OF THE SAINTS ARE REMOVED BY JESUS bcuz they accepted His payment for their sins in this life.

Sadly, you're deciding what's just and unjust and what love is by YOUR human emotion and intellect - NOT GOD'S. You are judging GOD by your flawed standards & perceptions.
YOU have the unjust problem; not God. It's actually UNJUST for you to claim that God is unjust in eternal condemnation.
Bcuz until you view sin for what it truly is, and what it does when it's let out to do it's work, you will not grasp how JUST it is for God to put people and their sins in Gehenna so as never to be let out again to corrupt what is remade PURE for the Saints who eternally reside with God.

Hebrews 10:28
27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

28Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

(rejected the blood of Christ - rejected His sacrifice for them).

You need to get in line with how GOD views sin & rejection of Christ's death.