Arghhhh!!!

[Tavita]

You claim repeatedly that you were like us previously, but I've never seen anyone who believed as I do and as the people who oppose universalism do, fall into the heresy and the lie of the devil that is universalism.

Well, you haven't been around long have you? There are thousands upon thousands out there the same as me.. go look for yourself.. oh yeah, I forgot.. Zecro doesn't like looking. Well, knowing you, you won't take my word for it. So keep on assuming.

Your big problem is that you don't know what you're actually saying when you say that we must all have our sins burned off. By saying that you're saying that Jesus' shed blood, death on the cross and resurrection were not sufficient to pay the penalty of sin.

You forget, Jesus has already paid for their sins. If He has already paid for their sin then what is it that gets judged? Doesn't it say it's their 'works' that are judged... just like ours. The 'works' of Christians are judged too, or are you another that doesn't believe that?

Let's say it again... Jesus has already paid for the sin of mankind.

How offensive you may view sin to be, is irrelevant at this point.

That's exactly what you brought up in the post I quoted from, Zecro.

You contend that the only way we can be saved is by going to Hell for an indeterminate amount of time to have our sins burned off until we are pure enough to enter Heaven, making Jesus' finished work on the cross unnecessary. The problem is not us, or how we understand your view of sin, the problem is your low view of scripture and how little stock you place in Jesus' finished work on the cross to pay the penalty for sin.

See above.

 

[Tavita]

You can drop the condescending tone anytime now. You're just embarassing yourself with such childish behavior.

Just posting in like manner.

 

[Zecryphon]

[/color]

Well, you haven't been around long have you? There are thousands upon thousands out there the same as me.. go look for yourself.. oh yeah, I forgot.. Zecro doesn't like looking. Well, knowing you, you won't take my word for it. So keep on assuming.




You forget, Jesus has already paid for their sins. If He has already paid for their sin then what is it that gets judged? Doesn't it say it's their 'works' that are judged... just like ours. The 'works' of Christians are judged too, or are you another that doesn't believe that?

Let's say it again... Jesus has already paid for the sin of mankind.

[/color]

That's exactly what you brought up in the post I quoted from, Zecro.




See above.

"Well, you haven't been around long have you?"

What does this have to do with anything? Nothing! Just another strawman to take away from the issue at hand.

"There are thousands upon thousands out there the same as me.."

Oh yeah, there's heretics everywhere, no argument from me on that one.

"go look for yourself.. oh yeah, I forgot.. Zecro doesn't like looking. Well, knowing you, you won't take my word for it. So keep on assuming."

Do you have anything of value to say or do you just want to engage in a flame war? I've never met a more haughty, arrogant and condesceding person in my life, and that's really saying something since I've talked to atheists who actually hate God. Even they were more respectful than you are.



Quote:
Your big problem is that you don't know what you're actually saying when you say that we must all have our sins burned off. By saying that you're saying that Jesus' shed blood, death on the cross and resurrection were not sufficient to pay the penalty of sin.


"You forget, Jesus has already paid for their sins."

Then why do they and everybody else have to go to Hell to have their sins burned off? Both Ben and James believe this, do you disagree with their belief?

"If He has already paid for their sin then what is it that gets judged?

Their works are what will be tested by fire, to see if they're pure or not. It does not say the people will be tested by fire or have any contact with fire whatsoever, if they are saved.

"Doesn't it say it's their 'works' that are judged... just like ours. The 'works' of Christians are judged too, or are you another that doesn't believe that?"

I'm a Lutheran, if you're so desperate to find out what we believe go to www.lcms.org and have a looksee.

"Let's say it again... Jesus has already paid for the sin of mankind."

Only if they repent, which He Himself said they must do or else they would perish. See Luke 13:1-5. Not all of mankind has repented, therefore not all are saved. And if Jesus' work on the cross paid the price for the sin of everyone, why did He then command His followers to go into all the world to spread the gospel message? Would be kinda pointless don't you think?



Quote:
How offensive you may view sin to be, is irrelevant at this point.
"That's exactly what you brought up in the post I quoted from, Zecro."

No, I didn't. How YOU personally view sin is irrelevant to whether or not Christ paid the price of sin on the cross.



Quote:
You contend that the only way we can be saved is by going to Hell for an indeterminate amount of time to have our sins burned off until we are pure enough to enter Heaven, making Jesus' finished work on the cross unnecessary. The problem is not us, or how we understand your view of sin, the problem is your low view of scripture and how little stock you place in Jesus' finished work on the cross to pay the penalty for sin.
See above.

The only thing that is up above is more false assumptions and strawman arguments by you. There's not too much of anything that has any real value to this discussion there.

 

[Zecryphon]

Just posting in like manner.

"Just posting in like manner."

Oh please, this is how you post to everybody who disagrees with you.

 

[Tavita]

"Well, you haven't been around long have you?"

What does this have to do with anything? Nothing! Just another strawman to take away from the issue at hand.

"There are thousands upon thousands out there the same as me.."

Oh yeah, there's heretics everywhere, no argument from me on that one.

"go look for yourself.. oh yeah, I forgot.. Zecro doesn't like looking. Well, knowing you, you won't take my word for it. So keep on assuming."

Do you have anything of value to say or do you just want to engage in a flame war? I've never met a more haughty, arrogant and condesceding person in my life, and that's really saying something since I've talked to atheists who actually hate God. Even they were more respectful than you are.



Quote:
Your big problem is that you don't know what you're actually saying when you say that we must all have our sins burned off. By saying that you're saying that Jesus' shed blood, death on the cross and resurrection were not sufficient to pay the penalty of sin.


"You forget, Jesus has already paid for their sins."

Then why do they and everybody else have to go to Hell to have their sins burned off? Both Ben and James believe this, do you disagree with their belief?

"If He has already paid for their sin then what is it that gets judged?

Their works are what will be tested by fire, to see if they're pure or not. It does not say the people will be tested by fire or have any contact with fire whatsoever, if they are saved.

"Doesn't it say it's their 'works' that are judged... just like ours. The 'works' of Christians are judged too, or are you another that doesn't believe that?"

I'm a Lutheran, if you're so desperate to find out what we believe go to www.lcms.org and have a looksee.

"Let's say it again... Jesus has already paid for the sin of mankind."

Only if they repent, which He Himself said they must do or else they would perish. See Luke 13:1-5. Not all of mankind has repented, therefore not all are saved. And if Jesus' work on the cross paid the price for the sin of everyone, why did He then command His followers to go into all the world to spread the gospel message? Would be kinda pointless don't you think?



Quote:
How offensive you may view sin to be, is irrelevant at this point.
"That's exactly what you brought up in the post I quoted from, Zecro."

No, I didn't. How YOU personally view sin is irrelevant to whether or not Christ paid the price of sin on the cross.



Quote:
You contend that the only way we can be saved is by going to Hell for an indeterminate amount of time to have our sins burned off until we are pure enough to enter Heaven, making Jesus' finished work on the cross unnecessary. The problem is not us, or how we understand your view of sin, the problem is your low view of scripture and how little stock you place in Jesus' finished work on the cross to pay the penalty for sin.
See above.

The only thing that is up above is more false assumptions and strawman arguments by you. There's not too much of anything that has any real value to this discussion there.

Look I see no point in talking with you either. You say I'm arrogant, haughty and condescending, but that's how I see you too. It may be that we just clash with personality. I get along fine with everyone else and you seem to as well... please don't go telling me I'm crying a river again.
It's enough.

 

[Ben12]

Great post, Ben! And isn't that the truth. If we're called to be priests and kings then WHO are we called to be priests and kings for?

I would like to see someone show otherwise too. All I have seen is people scoff every post instead of actually addressing 'the points' made in them.

They cannot address the kings and priest issue; their god has no mercy.

 

[Ben12]

Eternalhellist know little about the Priesthood of God; oh sure they can tell you about the Priesthood in the Catholic or Mormon religion. But to address the priesthood of scripture is something very foreign to their understanding; and it should be.

Ex. 19:5-6: "And ye shall be unto Me A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS." The full text reads, "Now, therefore, if ye will obey My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto Me above all people: for all the earth is Mine: and ye shall be unto Me A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS, and an holy nation."

We could not think of a disobedient people being for God - "a peculiar treasure, a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation." The apostle Peter speaks of the saints as "children of obedience"; they are begotten of that nature, and characterized by it. He speaks of "being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the living and abiding Word of God" (I Pet. 1:14, 23). Man after the flesh is born of corruptible seed, but there is another generation born of incorruptible seed, who desire earnestly the pure milk of the Word, and then the strong meat of the Word, and who grow up into the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ by it. They become "a chosen race, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a people for a purpose" (I Pet. 2:9). Just what the Lord proposed in Exodus chapter 19.

 

[Zecryphon]

They cannot address the kings and priest issue; their god has no mercy.

What exactly is the king and priest issue that you want us to address? It would help if you explained what a Melchidezek priest is too, of course. I have Ryrie's take on it, what is yours?

 

[Zecryphon]

Eternalhellist know little about the Priesthood of God; oh sure they can tell you about the Priesthood in the Catholic or Mormon religion. But to address the priesthood of scripture is something very foreign to their understanding; and it should be.

Ex. 19:5-6: "And ye shall be unto Me A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS." The full text reads, "Now, therefore, if ye will obey My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto Me above all people: for all the earth is Mine: and ye shall be unto Me A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS, and an holy nation."

We could not think of a disobedient people being for God - "a peculiar treasure, a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation." The apostle Peter speaks of the saints as "children of obedience"; they are begotten of that nature, and characterized by it. He speaks of "being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the living and abiding Word of God" (I Pet. 1:14, 23). Man after the flesh is born of corruptible seed, but there is another generation born of incorruptible seed, who desire earnestly the pure milk of the Word, and then the strong meat of the Word, and who grow up into the measure of the stature of the fullness of the Christ by it. They become "a chosen race, a kingly priesthood, a holy nation, a people for a purpose" (I Pet. 2:9). Just what the Lord proposed in Exodus chapter 19.

"Eternalhellist know little about the Priesthood of God; oh sure they can tell you about the Priesthood in the Catholic or Mormon religion"

Actually, we can't tell you too much about what the Mormon church teaches as they are not Christians and worship a different god.

" But to address the priesthood of scripture is something very foreign to their understanding; and it should be."

Don't you mean the priesthood in scripture? A priest is defined as a person who talks to God for the people. Christ's sacrifice enables all believers to go directly to God and not need a priest to fulfill this function anymore. The Catholics I've talked to still do rely upon the priest to be their connection to God and feel uncomfortable with the idea of going to Jesus directly.

Ex. 19:5-6: "And ye shall be unto Me A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS." The full text reads, "Now, therefore, if ye will obey My voice indeed, and keep My covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto Me above all people: for all the earth is Mine: and ye shall be unto Me A KINGDOM OF PRIESTS, and an holy nation."

Which translation are you using? The Holman? In the ESV these verses are rendered thus:

Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine; Exo 19:6 and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel."

It seems to me that God was giving a message to His chosen priests to take to the nation of Israel and nobody else. I don't think you can extrapolate this to apply to Gentiles who at the time these words were spoken were not in a covenant relationship with God through Christ. This was a message for Israel and Israel alone.

 

[Ben12]

You are saying this not for the Gentiles; well let us examine God’s Word. The Priesthood was established in the OT to point to the reality of the Priesthood in the NT; Jesus is our true High Priest; but there is more. You need to some how put you bias understanding aside and at least hears what I got to say.

1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. This is speaking of OT examples; the OT conceals Christ, the NT reveals Christ.

I can think of at least of three times when this is address in NT; first of all pretty much the whole Book of Hebrews especially starting about the 3rd Chapter. Then you have King David and the Tabernacle of David in Acts 15:15-16

I mentioned already Revelations 6:1 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Notice the verse above and then read Hebrews 7-8. I believe God is calling a priesthood of Kings and Priest. Our mission as a firstfruit is for the remainder of mankind.


Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

Acts 15:14 Simeon [a] has reported how God first intervened to take from the Gentiles a people for His name. (A) 15 And the words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written:
16 After these things I will return and will rebuild David's tent, which has fallen down. I will rebuild its ruins and will set it up again, 17 so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord— even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does these things,

If we are the heretic then why are we bring this to your attention and not your local body?

 

[Carey]

Why is everyone talking about universalism again? This thread is not about hell, it's about Christian Zionism.

And , I should add... about the Muslim takeover in our world.

You are right.

Why are they not getting it??

 

[Carey]

You are saying this not for the Gentiles; well let us examine God’s Word. The Priesthood was established in the OT to point to the reality of the Priesthood in the NT; Jesus is our true High Priest; but there is more. You need to some how put you bias understanding aside and at least hears what I got to say.

1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. This is speaking of OT examples; the OT conceals Christ, the NT reveals Christ.

I can think of at least of three times when this is address in NT; first of all pretty much the whole Book of Hebrews especially starting about the 3rd Chapter. Then you have King David and the Tabernacle of David in Acts 15:15-16

I mentioned already Revelations 6:1 And hath made us kings and priests unto Godand his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Notice the verse above and then read Hebrews 7-8. I believe God is calling a priesthood of Kings and Priest. Our mission as a firstfruit is for the remainder of mankind.


Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

Acts 15:14 Simeon [a] has reported how God first intervened to take from the Gentiles a people for His name. (A) 15 And the words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written:
16 After these things I will return and will rebuild David's tent, which has fallen down. I will rebuild its ruins and will set it up again, 17 so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord— even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does these things,

If we are the heretic then why are we bring this to your attention and not your local body?

Here I go derailing my own thread but I could not resist...LOL

Ok what do you think this means??

Acts 19 :
19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."
28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.
Romans 7 : 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Matthew 22 :
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Mark 12 : 28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, " Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29" The most important one," answered Jesus, " is this: 'Hear, O Israel , the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."

Romans 2 makes it plain everyone does not have that nature. God chooses to write Torah on some people hearts who know nothing of the law.

Romasn 2 : 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Now if we look at the whole Chapter it seems to be warning us not to judge others as much as explain that some can keep Torah by nature .

 

[Ben12]

Here I go derailing my own thread but I could not resist...LOL

Ok what do you think this means??

Acts 19 :
19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."
28It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.
Romans 7 : 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

Matthew 22 :
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Mark 12 : 28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, " Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"
29" The most important one," answered Jesus, " is this: 'Hear, O Israel , the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."

Romans 2 makes it plain everyone does not have that nature. God chooses to write Torah on some people hearts who know nothing of the law.

Romasn 2 : 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Now if we look at the whole Chapter it seems to be warning us not to judge others as much as explain that some can keep Torah by nature .

Go ahead and please make your point; I am not sure where you are coming from. Sorry about derailing the thread.

 

[Spiritofprophecy]

greetings in the name Jesus:

the only power satan had in heaven, was to accuse man of sin, in the ear of God. I call this Mans sin God cannot hear or see: Now Jesus defeated satans power and cast him to earth; and Jesus also died on the Cross to cover our sins, we call it defeating satan. Which sins are all " common unto man". 1 cor 10;13.

These two verse show that Satan is mans evil, and disobedience unto God; As Jesus calling Peter satan when disobedient to Gods will for Jesus proves.

Man is the Only disobedience there is, unto Gods will; And In man in mans disobedience is where satan is found. Romans 5

I pray my words do not offend, God bless Christians in forum, and all who use it.
</IMG></IMG>

 

[Zecryphon]

"You are saying this not for the Gentiles; well let us examine God&#8217;s Word."


I said the passages in Exodus were directed at the nation of Israel, which they were. Now if you are stating that those passages were a foreshadowing of the priesthood that would be found in the NT, then I could agree with you.


"The Priesthood was established in the OT to point to the reality of the Priesthood in the NT; Jesus is our true High Priest; but there is more. You need to some how put you bias understanding aside and at least hears what I got to say."


You've really gotta knock it off with these claims of religious bias on my part, because whether you'll admit it or not your posts are riddled with bias as well. You're looking like a hypocrite Ben and that's not a good thing.

"1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. This is speaking of OT examples; the OT conceals Christ, the NT reveals Christ."


I agree.

"I can think of at least of three times when this is address in NT; first of all pretty much the whole Book of Hebrews especially starting about the 3rd Chapter. Then you have King David and the Tabernacle of David in Acts 15:15-16."


I'll have to reread those passages to see what you're trying to say.


"I mentioned already Revelations 6:1 And hath made us kings and priests unto Godand his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."


That's not what Revelation 6:1 says though. I've previously posted what it says. Here it is again:

Rev 6:1 Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, "Come!"


How does this support your idea of a priesthood in the NT?


"Notice the verse above and then read Hebrews 7-8. I believe God is calling a priesthood of Kings and Priest. Our mission as a firstfruit is for the remainder of mankind."


Okay, what is this mission? Evangelism or something different?


Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

Acts 15:14 Simeon [a] has reported how God first intervened to take from the Gentiles a people for His name. (A) 15 And the words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written:
16 After these things I will return and will rebuild David's tent, which has fallen down. I will rebuild its ruins and will set it up again, 17 so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord&#8212; even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does these things,"


Here is Matthew Henry's exposition of these verses which is always much better than my own:


2. He refers to what Peter had said concerning the conversion of the Gentiles (Act_15:14): "Simeon" (that is, Simon Peter) "hath declared, and opened the matter to you - how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, in Cornelius and his friends, who were the first-fruits of the Gentiles-how, when the gospel began first to spread, presently the Gentiles were invited to come and take the benefit of it;" and James observes here,

(1.) That the grace of God was the origin of it; it was God that visited the Gentiles; and it was a kind visit. Had they been left to themselves, they would never have visited him, but the acquaintance began on his part; he not only visited and redeemed his people, but visited and redeemed those that were lo ammi - not a people.

(2.) that the glory of God was the end of it: it was to take out of them a people for his name, who should glorify him, and in whom he would be glorified. As of old he took the Jews, so now the Gentiles, to be to him for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, Jer_13:11. Let all the people of God remember that therefore they are thus dignified in God, that God may be glorified in them.


3. He confirms this with a quotation out of the Old Testament: he could not prove the calling of the Gentiles by a vision, as Peter could, nor by miracles wrought by his hand, as Paul and Barnabas could, but he would prove that it was foretold in the Old Testament, and therefore it must be fulfilled, Act_15:15. To this agree the words of the prophets; most of the Old Testament prophets spoke more or less of the calling in of the Gentiles, even Moses himself, Rom_10:19. It was the general expectation of the pious Jews that the Messiah should be a light to enlighten the Gentiles (Luk_2:32): but James waives the more illustrious prophecies of this, and pitches upon one that seemed more obscure: It is written, Amo_9:11, Amo_9:12, where is foretold, (1.) The setting up of the kingdom of the Messiah (Act_15:16): I will raise up the tabernacle of David, that is fallen. The covenant was made with David and his seed; but the house and family of David are here called his tabernacle, because David in his beginning was a shepherd, and dwelt in tents, and his house, that had been as a stately palace, had become a mean and despicable tabernacle, reduced in a manner to its small beginning. This tabernacle was ruined and fallen down; there had not been for many ages a king of the house of David; the sceptre had departed from Judah, the royal family was sunk and buried in obscurity, and, as it should seem, not enquired after. But God will return, and will build it again, raise it out of its ruins, a phoenix out of its ashes; and this was now lately fulfilled, when our Lord Jesus was raised out of that family, had the throne of his father David given him, with a promise that he should reign over the house of Jacob for ever, Luk_1:32, Luk_1:33. And, when the tabernacle of David was thus rebuilt in Christ, all the rest of it was, not many years after, wholly extirpated and cut off, as was also the nation of the Jews itself, and all their genealogies were lost. The church of Christ may be called the tabernacle of David. This may sometimes be brought very low, and may seem to be in ruins, but it shall be built again, its withering interests shall revive; it is cast down, but not destroyed: even dry bones are made to live.

(2.) The bringing in of the Gentiles as the effect and consequence of this (Act_15:17): That the residue of men might seek after the Lord; not the Jews only, who thought they had the monopoly of the tabernacle of David, but the residue of men, such as had hitherto been left out of the pale of the visible church; they must now, upon this re-edifying of the tabernacle of David, be brought to seek after the Lord, and to enquire how they may obtain his favour. When David's tabernacle is set up, they shall seek the Lord their God, and David their king, Hos_3:5; Jer_30:9. Then Israel shall possess the remnant of Edom (so it is in the Hebrew); but the Jews called all the Gentiles Edomites, and therefore the Septuagint leave out the particular mention of Edom, and read it just as it is here, that the residue of men might seek (James here adds, after the Lord), and all the Gentiles, or heathen, upon whom my name is called. The Jews were for many ages so peculiarly favoured that the residue of men seemed neglected; but now God will have an eye to them, and his name shall be called upon by the Gentiles; his name shall be declared and published among them, and they shall be brought both to know his name and to call upon it: they shall call themselves the people of God, and he shall call them so; and thus, by consent of both parties, his name is called upon them. This promise we may depend upon the fulfilling of in its season; and now it begins to be fulfilled, for it is added, saith the Lord, who doeth this; who doeth all these things (so the Seventy); and the apostle here: he saith it who doeth it, who therefore said it because he was determined to do it; and who therefore does it because he hath said it; for though with us saying and doing are two things they are not so with God. The uniting of Jews and Gentiles in one body, and all those things that were done in order to it, which were here foretold, were,

[1.] What God did: This was the Lord's doing, whatever instruments were employed in it: and,

[2.] It was what God delighted in, and was well pleased with; for he is the God of the Gentiles, as well as the Jews, and it is his honour to be rich in mercy to all that call upon him.


4. He resolves it into the purpose and counsel of God (Act_15:18): Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. He not only foretold the calling of the Gentiles many ages ago by the prophets (and therefore it ought not to be a surprise or stumbling-block to us), but he foresaw and foreordained it in his eternal counsels, which are unquestionably wise and unalterably firm.

It is an excellent maxim here laid down concerning all God's works, both of providence and grace, in the natural and spiritual kingdom, that they were all known unto him from the beginning of the world, from the time he first began to work, which supposes his knowing them (as other scriptures speak) from before the foundation of the world, and therefore from all eternity. Note, Whatever God does, he did before design and determine to do; for he works all, not only according to his will, but according to the counsel of his will: he not only does whatever he determined (Psa_135:6), which is more than we can do (our purposes are frequently broken off, and our measures broken), but he determined whatever he does. Whatever he may say, to prove us, he himself knows what he will do. We know not our works beforehand, but must do as occasion shall serve, 1Sa_10:7.

What we shall do in such or such a case we cannot tell till it comes to the setting to; but known unto God are all his works; in the volume of his book (called the scriptures of truth, Dan_10:21) they are all written in order, without any erasure or interlining (Psa_40:7); and all God's works will, in the day of review, be found to agree exactly with his counsels, without the least error or variation. We are poor short-sighted creatures; the wisest men can see but a little way before them, and not at all with any certainty; but this is our comfort, that, whatever uncertainty we are at, there is an infallible certainty in the divine prescience: known unto God are all his works.

"If we are the heretic then why are we bring this to your attention and not your local body?"


My local body regards universalism as heresy as well, and would never try and teach it as fact or the word of God as you try to do. Why are you trying to give the local body credibility now? You have made it clear that the local bodies are made up of nothing but carnal Christians who love religion over the truth of God, according to you. You think we're all biased and have an agenda. You have also removed yourself from any local body, because you believe none of them possess the truth.


Furthermore, my local body of LCMS Lutherans would have the same reaction to this teaching as I and others in here who disagree with you, have had. But if you feel up to it go to the Lutheran forums and tell them you have started a debate thread in the appropriate section of this forum to debate this topic and you'd reallly love to hear the Lutheran viewpoint on this.

 

[Ben12]

Sorry my error

Revelation 1:6
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

[Ben12]

"You are saying this not for the Gentiles; well let us examine God’s Word."


I said the passages in Exodus were directed at the nation of Israel, which they were. Now if you are stating that those passages were a foreshadowing of the priesthood that would be found in the NT, then I could agree with you.


"The Priesthood was established in the OT to point to the reality of the Priesthood in the NT; Jesus is our true High Priest; but there is more. You need to some how put you bias understanding aside and at least hears what I got to say."


You've really gotta knock it off with these claims of religious bias on my part, because whether you'll admit it or not your posts are riddled with bias as well. You're looking like hypocrite Ben and that's not a good thing.

"1 Corin 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. This is speaking of OT examples; the OT conceals Christ, the NT reveals Christ."


I agree.

"I can think of at least of three times when this is address in NT; first of all pretty much the whole Book of Hebrews especially starting about the 3rd Chapter. Then you have King David and the Tabernacle of David in Acts 15:15-16."


I'll have to reread those passages to see what you're trying to say.


"I mentioned already Revelations 6:1 And hath made us kings and priests unto Godand his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."


That's not what Revelation 6:1 says though. I've previously posted what it says. Here it is again:

Rev 6:1 Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, "Come!"


How does this support your idea of a priesthood in the NT?


"Notice the verse above and then read Hebrews 7-8. I believe God is calling a priesthood of Kings and Priest. Our mission as a firstfruit is for the remainder of mankind."


Okay, what is this mission? Evangelism or something different?


Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)

Acts 15:14 Simeon [a] has reported how God first intervened to take from the Gentiles a people for His name. (A) 15 And the words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written:
16 After these things I will return and will rebuild David's tent, which has fallen down. I will rebuild its ruins and will set it up again, 17 so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord— even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does these things,"


Here is Matthew Henry's exposition of these verses which is always much better than my own:


2. He refers to what Peter had said concerning the conversion of the Gentiles (Act_15:14): "Simeon" (that is, Simon Peter) "hath declared, and opened the matter to you - how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, in Cornelius and his friends, who were the first-fruits of the Gentiles-how, when the gospel began first to spread, presently the Gentiles were invited to come and take the benefit of it;" and James observes here,

(1.) That the grace of God was the origin of it; it was God that visited the Gentiles; and it was a kind visit. Had they been left to themselves, they would never have visited him, but the acquaintance began on his part; he not only visited and redeemed his people, but visited and redeemed those that were lo ammi - not a people.

(2.) that the glory of God was the end of it: it was to take out of them a people for his name, who should glorify him, and in whom he would be glorified. As of old he took the Jews, so now the Gentiles, to be to him for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory, Jer_13:11. Let all the people of God remember that therefore they are thus dignified in God, that God may be glorified in them.


3. He confirms this with a quotation out of the Old Testament: he could not prove the calling of the Gentiles by a vision, as Peter could, nor by miracles wrought by his hand, as Paul and Barnabas could, but he would prove that it was foretold in the Old Testament, and therefore it must be fulfilled, Act_15:15. To this agree the words of the prophets; most of the Old Testament prophets spoke more or less of the calling in of the Gentiles, even Moses himself, Rom_10:19. It was the general expectation of the pious Jews that the Messiah should be a light to enlighten the Gentiles (Luk_2:32): but James waives the more illustrious prophecies of this, and pitches upon one that seemed more obscure: It is written, Amo_9:11, Amo_9:12, where is foretold, (1.) The setting up of the kingdom of the Messiah (Act_15:16): I will raise up the tabernacle of David, that is fallen. The covenant was made with David and his seed; but the house and family of David are here called his tabernacle, because David in his beginning was a shepherd, and dwelt in tents, and his house, that had been as a stately palace, had become a mean and despicable tabernacle, reduced in a manner to its small beginning. This tabernacle was ruined and fallen down; there had not been for many ages a king of the house of David; the sceptre had departed from Judah, the royal family was sunk and buried in obscurity, and, as it should seem, not enquired after. But God will return, and will build it again, raise it out of its ruins, a phoenix out of its ashes; and this was now lately fulfilled, when our Lord Jesus was raised out of that family, had the throne of his father David given him, with a promise that he should reign over the house of Jacob for ever, Luk_1:32, Luk_1:33. And, when the tabernacle of David was thus rebuilt in Christ, all the rest of it was, not many years after, wholly extirpated and cut off, as was also the nation of the Jews itself, and all their genealogies were lost. The church of Christ may be called the tabernacle of David. This may sometimes be brought very low, and may seem to be in ruins, but it shall be built again, its withering interests shall revive; it is cast down, but not destroyed: even dry bones are made to live.

(2.) The bringing in of the Gentiles as the effect and consequence of this (Act_15:17): That the residue of men might seek after the Lord; not the Jews only, who thought they had the monopoly of the tabernacle of David, but the residue of men, such as had hitherto been left out of the pale of the visible church; they must now, upon this re-edifying of the tabernacle of David, be brought to seek after the Lord, and to enquire how they may obtain his favour. When David's tabernacle is set up, they shall seek the Lord their God, and David their king, Hos_3:5; Jer_30:9. Then Israel shall possess the remnant of Edom (so it is in the Hebrew); but the Jews called all the Gentiles Edomites, and therefore the Septuagint leave out the particular mention of Edom, and read it just as it is here, that the residue of men might seek (James here adds, after the Lord), and all the Gentiles, or heathen, upon whom my name is called. The Jews were for many ages so peculiarly favoured that the residue of men seemed neglected; but now God will have an eye to them, and his name shall be called upon by the Gentiles; his name shall be declared and published among them, and they shall be brought both to know his name and to call upon it: they shall call themselves the people of God, and he shall call them so; and thus, by consent of both parties, his name is called upon them. This promise we may depend upon the fulfilling of in its season; and now it begins to be fulfilled, for it is added, saith the Lord, who doeth this; who doeth all these things (so the Seventy); and the apostle here: he saith it who doeth it, who therefore said it because he was determined to do it; and who therefore does it because he hath said it; for though with us saying and doing are two things they are not so with God. The uniting of Jews and Gentiles in one body, and all those things that were done in order to it, which were here foretold, were,

[1.] What God did: This was the Lord's doing, whatever instruments were employed in it: and,

[2.] It was what God delighted in, and was well pleased with; for he is the God of the Gentiles, as well as the Jews, and it is his honour to be rich in mercy to all that call upon him.


4. He resolves it into the purpose and counsel of God (Act_15:18): Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. He not only foretold the calling of the Gentiles many ages ago by the prophets (and therefore it ought not to be a surprise or stumbling-block to us), but he foresaw and foreordained it in his eternal counsels, which are unquestionably wise and unalterably firm.

It is an excellent maxim here laid down concerning all God's works, both of providence and grace, in the natural and spiritual kingdom, that they were all known unto him from the beginning of the world, from the time he first began to work, which supposes his knowing them (as other scriptures speak) from before the foundation of the world, and therefore from all eternity. Note, Whatever God does, he did before design and determine to do; for he works all, not only according to his will, but according to the counsel of his will: he not only does whatever he determined (Psa_135:6), which is more than we can do (our purposes are frequently broken off, and our measures broken), but he determined whatever he does. Whatever he may say, to prove us, he himself knows what he will do. We know not our works beforehand, but must do as occasion shall serve, 1Sa_10:7.

What we shall do in such or such a case we cannot tell till it comes to the setting to; but known unto God are all his works; in the volume of his book (called the scriptures of truth, Dan_10:21) they are all written in order, without any erasure or interlining (Psa_40:7); and all God's works will, in the day of review, be found to agree exactly with his counsels, without the least error or variation. We are poor short-sighted creatures; the wisest men can see but a little way before them, and not at all with any certainty; but this is our comfort, that, whatever uncertainty we are at, there is an infallible certainty in the divine prescience: known unto God are all his works.

"If we are the heretic then why are we bring this to your attention and not your local body?"


My local body regards universalism as heresy as well, and would never try and teach it as fact or the word of God as you try to do. Why are you trying to give the local body credibility now? You have made it clear that the local bodies are made up of nothing but carnal Christians who love religion over the truth of God, according to you. You think we're all biased and have an agenda. You have also removed yourself from any local body, because you believe none of them possess the truth.


Furthermore, my local body of LCMS Lutherans would have the same reaction to this teaching as I and others in here who disagree with you, have had. But if you feel up to it go to the Lutheran forums and tell them you have started a debate thread in the appropriate section of this forum to debate this topic and you'd reallly love to hear the Lutheran viewpoint on this.

I love to but I belive it is against FORUM rules to cross over to denomational forums with the teaching of Jesus blood being greater then the sin of Adam.

 

[Ben12]

Acts 15:14 Declares that he will return again and restore the Tabernacle of David and then he will save the remainder of mankind

The Tabernacle of David is for it is mention hundreds of times in the Old Testament and especially in the Book of Revelations. Zion was the natural home of King David who is a type of Christ in Natural Jerusalem. Mt Zion was the head of natural Kingdom; just as Spiritual Mt Zion is the Spiritual high place of Christ in the book of Revelation. David did not need to go to a priest; let alone a high priest to visit the Ark (or the glory of God) it was in a tent or tabernacle on his back porch at Mt Zion. This is a beautiful type which tells us myriads of what God is tying to tell us in the Spirit of the Word.

God is speaking in a very symbolic language here; and the only true answer is not by some dead church leader; but by God’s Spirit with in you. What may I ask is spiritual to you? Going to church, singing, praying? What is spiritual to me is hearing what God is saying within.

The Holy Spirit is the only way scripture declares to us how to find truth; it says nothing about Lutheranism. The Holy Spirit is Devine part of God with in each one of us capable of speaking, loving, reproving, teaching, convicting and transforming; one that will lead and guide us into all truth. Have you ever heard God’s Spirit and if you have you ever followed its leading.

1 Corin 2:9 However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"[2] -- 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. 11The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[3] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:



Acts 15:17 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB) so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord— even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does these things,

Acts 15: 17 Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE) Then all the other people will find God, even those who are not Jews but who belong to me. So says the Lord, who is doing all these things."


Acts 15:17 (The Message) After this, I'm coming back; I'll rebuild David's ruined house;
I'll put all the pieces together again; I'll make it look like new
So outsiders who seek will find, so they'll have a place to come to,
All the pagan peoples included in what I'm doing.
"God said it and now he's doing it. It's no afterthought; he's always known he would do this.

 

[Zecryphon]

I love to but I belive it is against FORUM rules to cross over to denomational forums with the teaching of Jesus blood being greater then the sin of Adam.

It would be against forum rules to go into the Lutheran forum and do that. That's why I suggested going to the appropriate area of the forum, like perhaps the Theology section where inter-denominational debate is allowed.

 

[Cris413]

I cannot even begin to describe what a monumental headache I now have reading through this thread.

To be honest&#8230;I personally do not fully understand Heaven and Hell and all in between. The only thing I&#8217;m absolutely certain of is that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for all believers&#8217; sin and whatever the penalty is&#8230;we&#8217;re exempt from it.

Those who refuse Jesus Christ will not be exempt. Period.

What I would like to believe&#8230;is that the Lake of Fire&#8230;the second death is exactly that&#8230;complete death of body and soul. I&#8217;d like to believe those thrown into the Lake of Fire would be completely obliterated into a complete and total non-existence.

That&#8217;s what I would like to believe.

I do not want to consider that ANYONE would be in an eternal torment.

I would also like to believe that eternal torment is merely separation from God. Not some continual burning by a literal fire.

Whether I want to believe it or not&#8230;there is a significant amount of Scripture that certainly describes eternal damnation and torment. Which is the destination for those who refuse salvation through Jesus Christ.

In reading through this thread&#8230; Zecryphon has remained consistent and clear in his posting which he has also supported with appropriate Scripture.

Ben12 &#8211; here we are again&#8230;And I will express to you again the same concerns as I&#8217;ve had in the past regarding your posts&#8230;.

Be careful you don&#8217;t become so puffed up in your pride that you explode. Please don&#8217;t forget&#8230;while you&#8217;re so focused on your &#8220;superior&#8221; knowledge and understanding&#8230;that it&#8217;s not about you. It&#8217;s about God and serving Him according to His good will and purpose. It&#8217;s not ALL about your personal edification.

Whether you like to consider it or not&#8230;&#8221;Baby lon&#8221; and the unsaved are why we&#8217;re here. We are here to be salt and light. We are here to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. IN TERMS THAT ARE UNDERSTANDABLE in truth and love to EVERYONE on every level.

Deeper levels of understanding will never contradict the plain meaning. It will only add to it&#8230;NEVER change it nor subtract from it.

And Tavita&#8230;I am totally blown away. The behavior and baiting for arguments sake I&#8217;ve seen from you in this thread and others&#8230;.UNEXCUSABLE. There is nothing you could say from this point on that I could take to heart because of your lack of heart in your posts.

I&#8217;m amazed that Zecryphon kept his patience with you and Ben for as long as he did.

It would have been great if I could have gleaned some understanding from this thread which I admittedly lack&#8230;

But I tell you both Tavita and Ben12&#8230;you have not given God any glory in your posts. Exactly the opposite. You&#8217;ve glorified yourselves and your own understanding.

There is no way anyone could be edified or receive any benefit from your words.

PS...Bottom line....I TRUST GOD