Arghhhh!!!

[jive4005]

FYI... just posted a teaching on heaven/hell/judgement on my blog. Hope it enlightens and blesses.

His,
Rev J

 

[Ben12]

The reason I repeat my self is because you do not get it. No one addresses many of the things I have said; because it does not fit their wine skin; I will also add that alot of you carnal religous types would choke on anything deep.

Revelations 6:1 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Just like Melchisedec or David’s Tabernacle which points to Jesus and later the Benjamin Company.

Who are you going to be a king and priest if they are all in some endless torture chamber?

You eternalhellist do not even perceived the concept of a Melchisedec Priesthood because all you are concerned of watching your friends, neighbor, children; parents or who ever does not fit your limit concept of salvation burn in some unending torture chamber for eternity right across that great gulf as you play harps; and you call that paradise; bunk.

Notice the verse above and then read Hebrews 7-8. I believe God is calling a priesthood of Kings and Priest. Our mission as a firstfruit is for the remainder of mankind.

What is the Tabernacle or tent of David?


Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
View commentary related to this passage
Acts 15:14 Simeon [a] has reported how God first intervened to take from the Gentiles a people for His name. (A) 15 And the words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written:
16 After these things I will return
and will rebuild David's tent, which has fallen down.
I will rebuild its ruins and will set it up again,
17 so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord—
even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
says the Lord who does these things,

You never see this literal; it is a deep spiritual word; much deeper then what you will ever hear in your social gathering. You must be like Moses and climb the spiritual mountain of God alone. You must come to a place where all that matters is what the Spirit of truth is revealing to you; not the generations upon generations of man’s wisdom.

 

[Ben12]

What bugs me about eternal hell and torture is the failure of God; what a complete utter failure a god so great and powerful; who has the power and will to send billions to eternal hell and torture. But does not have the will or power to draw them back to him self. The blood of Jesus is so weak and helpless compared to the great works of the devil and sin. Is this not what you eternalhellist are trying to tell me?

 

[Zecryphon]

What bugs me about eternal hell and torture is the failure of God; what a complete utter failure a god so great and powerful; who has the power and will to send billions to eternal hell and torture. But does not have the will or power to draw them back to him self. The blood of Jesus is so weak and helpless compared to the great works of the devil and sin. Is this not what you eternalhellist are trying to tell me?

No, what we are trying to tell you is that God is both merciful and just. All things work together for God's glory. Here's a website that explains it pretty well, I think. God is only a failure in your eyes because you don't understand how a loving God can send anyone to Hell. The failure is not Him, but you. People like yourselves who claim to love all, actually hate God, because in your own discourses you call God weak and a failure. You won't see any true Christian do that. And you're supposed to be the wise and enlightened ones?

http://www.carm.org/uni/allmensaved.htm

Here is what the scriptures say about those who pride themselves on being wise.
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;
Mat 11:26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. Mat 11:27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Seems to me like the ones who understand God and His message are the ones you refer to as babies, or Baby lon as you're so fond of saying. It also seems that God chooses to reveal Himself only to some people, not to all people. So if God does not, by His own choice apparently, reveal Himself to all people, how can all people be saved? The universalists are the ones that proclaim the failure of God as you agree with the notion that all people must go to Hell and burn for their sins. James put this forth and you seem to agree with it. So if we all have to go to Hell to burn for our sins, exactly what did Jesus accomplish on the cross, according to your view?

 

[Cris413]

No, what we are trying to tell you is that God is both merciful and just. All things work together for God's glory. Here's a website that explains it pretty well, I think. God is only a failure in your eyes because you don't understand how a loving God can send anyone to Hell. The failure is not Him, but you. People like yourselves who claim to love all, actually hate God, because in your own discourses you call God weak and a failure. You won't see any true Christian do that. And you're supposed to be the wise and enlightened ones?

http://www.carm.org/uni/allmensaved.htm

Here is what the scriptures say about those who pride themselves on being wise.
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;
Mat 11:26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. Mat 11:27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Seems to me like the ones who understand God and His message are the ones you refer to as babies, or Baby lon as you're so fond of saying. It also seems that God chooses to reveal Himself only to some people, not to all people. So if God does not, by His own choice apparently, reveal Himself to all people, how can all people be saved? The universalists are the ones that proclaim the failure of God as you agree with the notion that all people must go to Hell and burn for their sins. James put this forth and you seem to agree with it. So if we all have to go to Hell to burn for our sins, exactly what did Jesus accomplish on the cross, according to your view?

good post and a good question...

I would like to add...let us not forget that God is HOLY. I'm not sure, in our humaness as the creation, that we can fully understand the holiness of our Creator.

To me, it's all about trust. We trust that God is exactly who He says He is...full of grace and mercy....holy and righteous in ALL His ways...

Let us also not forget God is sovereign. I think it would be a bit presumptuous of us to question God's holy authority and His righteous judgment.

 

[IisJustMe]

It is sarcasm for you to pretend to be able to comment on Christian things when, despite your self-proclaimed knowledge, you've never bothered to get any.

Yeah, human freedoms are so pointless nowadays. Wouldn't it be easier if the government watched our every move? Perhaps they should number us to help keep track. They could tatoo the numbers on our foreheads.

Nothing in the Patriot Act or other protections against terrorism are aimed at anyone doing anything against law-abiding residents of the US, whether citizens or not. The listening posts set up by NSA to eavesdrop on terrorists around the world have already thwarted at least a half dozen plots to commit terrorist acts against US allies, if not against the US itself. The Patriot Act holds no fear for people not plotting to blow up anything or hijack planes or pollute water supplies or whatever else terrorists may deem as a strike at the heart of the US and its people.

When are you and others going to realize that there is no negotiating or accommodating the extremists? You want peace with a rabid dog, a wild boar. There is no reasoning, there is no compromise. Their sole aim is to annihilate the nation and the people of this country. As they stand over you with sword in hand, do you honestly think your plea "I agree with you, this is a horrible nation" is going to stay your execution?

And trust me, the extremists would delight in that scenario as they slice off your unthinking head.

 

[RefrusRevlis]

What bugs me about eternal hell and torture is the failure of God; what a complete utter failure a god so great and powerful; who has the power and will to send billions to eternal hell and torture. But does not have the will or power to draw them back to him self. The blood of Jesus is so weak and helpless compared to the great works of the devil and sin. Is this not what you eternalhellist are trying to tell me?

God is not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). Yet not all will be saved (John 3:18, John 5:29 etc). What stops people from being saved? Free will. That is, they choose another path (Matthew 7:13). God could have created people who could not do anything but serve him. Such would be automatons. He has both the will and power to save, but will not force salvation on anyone. Eternal punishment is clearly taught in scriptures. It is appointed once for man to die and after that the judgment (Heb 9:27) - the judgment is based on things done in the body (2 Cor 5:10). There are no second chances.
Refrus

 

[Tavita]

That's the way it usually works isn't it? Someone brings up a topic and others post about the topic or ask questions.

Oh really?

As I'm not the one who brought it up, yet again, I have no reason to talk about it. This heresy has been put to bed in other threads.

*looks over the rest of the thread..

 

[SoundCard]

No, what we are trying to tell you is that God is both merciful and just. All things work together for God's glory. Here's a website that explains it pretty well, I think. God is only a failure in your eyes because you don't understand how a loving God can send anyone to Hell. The failure is not Him, but you. People like yourselves who claim to love all, actually hate God, because in your own discourses you call God weak and a failure. You won't see any true Christian do that. And you're supposed to be the wise and enlightened ones?

http://www.carm.org/uni/allmensaved.htm

Here is what the scriptures say about those who pride themselves on being wise.
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;
Mat 11:26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will. Mat 11:27 All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

Seems to me like the ones who understand God and His message are the ones you refer to as babies, or Baby lon as you're so fond of saying. It also seems that God chooses to reveal Himself only to some people, not to all people. So if God does not, by His own choice apparently, reveal Himself to all people, how can all people be saved? The universalists are the ones that proclaim the failure of God as you agree with the notion that all people must go to Hell and burn for their sins. James put this forth and you seem to agree with it. So if we all have to go to Hell to burn for our sins, exactly what did Jesus accomplish on the cross, according to your view?

I'd like to add, it seems people who advocate that all will be saved claim those who think that there will be some who won't be delight at the fact. I haven't seen anyone say this. I haven't read anyone claim "Yeah, some won't be saved. Good riddance!" That's no Christ-like attitude in the least. Rather, it seems blatantly obvious that it isn't the case that all will be saved. Some won't choose God. Some will consciously reject Him. Some will stand against Him. And if they are not forgiven, what do they have to look forward to? In the eyes of God they are wicked and must be destroyed. From our point of view, that doesn't seem fair. But how we feel about it really has no place in it. If you don't like it, well tough. Instead of justifying this warped view of scripture instead try and realize just how awful sin really is. How black that stain must be that eternal fire is the answer to it. Yes, Christ and Christ alone has the power to wipe it all away. It stands as nothing compared to Him. HOWEVER! Some will reject that atonement. They will favor their worldly delights and their false idols. They will bow to anything and everything but the one they should be. So who's fault is it that? It's not God's. He's given them a chance. They didn't repent. They will face judgment for it. Those who had faith have escaped that fate. Their sins are washed clean by the blood of Christ, and in THIS life, we are honed and fine tuned by the Holy Spirit. Our works are then tested by fire at judgment, and our works alone.Not the believer, we were spared that the moment we let Christ into our hearts. And again, people have to choose HERE and NOW whether to let Christ in or not. God will not force his salvation onto anyone. It is not Grace anymore then, is it?

 

[Tavita]

The reason I repeat my self is because you do not get it. No one addresses many of the things I have said; because it does not fit their wine skin; I will also add that alot of you carnal religous types would choke on anything deep.

Revelations 6:1 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Just like Melchisedec or David’s Tabernacle which points to Jesus and later the Benjamin Company.

Who are you going to be a king and priest if they are all in some endless torture chamber?

You eternalhellist do not even perceived the concept of a Melchisedec Priesthood because all you are concerned of watching your friends, neighbor, children; parents or who ever does not fit your limit concept of salvation burn in some unending torture chamber for eternity right across that great gulf as you play harps; and you call that paradise; bunk.

Notice the verse above and then read Hebrews 7-8. I believe God is calling a priesthood of Kings and Priest. Our mission as a firstfruit is for the remainder of mankind.

What is the Tabernacle or tent of David?


Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
View commentary related to this passage
Acts 15:14 Simeon [a] has reported how God first intervened to take from the Gentiles a people for His name. (A) 15 And the words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written:
16 After these things I will return
and will rebuild David's tent, which has fallen down.
I will rebuild its ruins and will set it up again,
17 so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord—
even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
says the Lord who does these things,

You never see this literal; it is a deep spiritual word; much deeper then what you will ever hear in your social gathering. You must be like Moses and climb the spiritual mountain of God alone. You must come to a place where all that matters is what the Spirit of truth is revealing to you; not the generations upon generations of man’s wisdom.

Great post, Ben! And isn't that the truth. If we're called to be priests and kings then WHO are we called to be priests and kings for?

I would like to see someone show otherwise too. All I have seen is people scoff every post instead of actually addressing 'the points' made in them.

 

[Zecryphon]

good post and a good question...

I would like to add...let us not forget that God is HOLY. I'm not sure, in our humaness as the creation, that we can fully understand the holiness of our Creator.

To me, it's all about trust. We trust that God is exactly who He says He is...full of grace and mercy....holy and righteous in ALL His ways...

Let us also not forget God is sovereign. I think it would be a bit presumptuous of us to question God's holy authority and His righteous judgment.

"good post and a good question..."

Thank you.

"I would like to add...let us not forget that God is HOLY. I'm not sure, in our humaness as the creation, that we can fully understand the holiness of our Creator."

I know for a fact, that we as human beings are incapable of understanding God's holiness. I think one reason is that since we're life-long career crimminals by the time we are rescued from sin by God through Jesus Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit, we are desensitized to sin. We have committed thousands upon thousands of sins and therefore think nothing of it anymore.

Because we are this way, we think it's unreasonable for God to send anyone to Hell for just one sin, which is what He does. Do we ever stop and think just how foul and repugnant and utterly evil just one sin, must be to a holy and righteous God?

"To me, it's all about trust. We trust that God is exactly who He says He is...full of grace and mercy....holy and righteous in ALL His ways..."

Yes!

"Let us also not forget God is sovereign. I think it would be a bit presumptuous of us to question God's holy authority and His righteous judgment."

If we did this in His presence I fully expect Him to give the same answer He gave Job; "were you there...?" as found in Job 38:4-41.

 

[Zecryphon]

Oh really?



*looks over the rest of the thread..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
That's the way it usually works isn't it? Someone brings up a topic and others post about the topic or ask questions.

"Oh really?"

Yeah, really. That's how internet forums work. Welcome to internet forum basics 101.

 

[Tavita]

God is not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). Yet not all will be saved (John 3:18, John 5:29 etc). What stops people from being saved? Free will. That is, they choose another path (Matthew 7:13). God could have created people who could not do anything but serve him. Such would be automatons. He has both the will and power to save, but will not force salvation on anyone. Eternal punishment is clearly taught in scriptures. It is appointed once for man to die and after that the judgment (Heb 9:27) - the judgment is based on things done in the body (2 Cor 5:10). There are no second chances.
Refrus

You quoted:
God is not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9)
It says 'God is not willing'.. does that mean God's will is NOT done in the earth because of the all powerful 'will of man'? You don't get a choice in being saved, you get a choice in how you work out that salvation. The only faith you have to receive Christ into your life is the faith of Jesus, and if it wasn't for His faith then you would still be dead in your sins. You don't think it was God who turned your heart to believe? Or did you do it yourself?

Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

This verse says nothing about mankind not being saved, it says they are already judged. And the verse does not say what the judgment entails.

Joh 5:29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

This is another one that Ben has already covered but no-one was listening.
The resurrection of judgment does not automatically assume eternal torment.

Eternal torment is clearly taught in scriptures because of not only the bad translations but because of the wickedness and pre-conceived ideas in the mind and heart of man. I thought eternal torment was clearly seen too until I did some digging and some study and asked Holy Spirit for the truth in this matter (because HE was convicting). We often read into scripture what we want it to read. I did not start off 'wanting' to read that all men will be saved. I had been indoctrinated into the eternalhellist mindset for over twenty five years too.

 

[Tavita]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zecryphon
That's the way it usually works isn't it? Someone brings up a topic and others post about the topic or ask questions.

"Oh really?"

Yeah, really. That's how internet forums work. Welcome to internet forum basics 101.

You're so smart, Zecryphon..

 

[Tavita]

I know for a fact, that we as human beings are incapable of understanding God's holiness. I think one reason is that since we're life-long career crimminals by the time we are rescued from sin by God through Jesus Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit, we are desensitized to sin. We have committed thousands upon thousands of sins and therefore think nothing of it anymore.

Because we are this way, we think it's unreasonable for God to send anyone to Hell for just one sin, which is what He does. Do we ever stop and think just how foul and repugnant and utterly evil just one sin, must be to a holy and righteous God?

You think because we believe all men will be saved we think nothing of sin? And we could not possibly think others will be eternally roasted because we think nothing of sin? Man, have you got it all wrong! That is YOUR false assumption. You don't know how I see sin at all, you just think you do.

 

[Zecryphon]

Great post, Ben! And isn't that the truth. If we're called to be priests and kings then WHO are we called to be priests and kings for?

I would like to see someone show otherwise too. All I have seen is people scoff every post instead of actually addressing 'the points' made in them.

"Revelations 6:1 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen."


Ben, it's Revelation, not Revelations. For someone who claims to be so well versed in the scriptures it amazes me that you do not know this. And you call the people who dare to disagree with you the babes with very little spiritual understanding! HA! Also, what you've posted is not what Revelattion 6:1 says. Here is what it says:


Now I watched when the Lamb opened one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures say with a voice like thunder, "Come!"

I have no idea where you got that quote above from.


"Who are you going to be a king and priest if they are all in some endless torture chamber?"

First give me the proper scripture for us being priests and kings and I will tell you. It is universalists who have put everyone into Hell, not us. You say ALL must go there and have their sins burned off before they are released into the kingdom of Heaven. Btw, I've never seen any scripture that supports this idea.

"You eternalhellist do not even perceived the concept of a Melchisedec Priesthood because all you are concerned of watching your friends, neighbor, children; parents or who ever does not fit your limit concept of salvation burn in some unending torture chamber for eternity right across that great gulf as you play harps; and you call that paradise; bunk."

It is bunk because that is not what we believe, that's a preconceived notion you have about what we believe. I have never heard any Christian say "I can't wait to get to Heaven so I can watch all those sinners burn while I play my harp." We believe that Hell is where people who do not know about the law of God and the gospel of Christ and why they need a savior and what they need to be saved from will go if we do not tell them about these things. We also believe that if they reject what is revealed to them by the Holy Spirit and us, that they will go to Hell as they have rejected, for whatever reason, salvation.

We as Christians love everyone and wish for no one to go to Hell. That is one of the things that drives us to spread the gospel message. But according to what you believe this is a huge waste of time, because whether we're saved or not, we're all going to Hell to have our sins burned off before entering Heaven. It seems apparent from what you write that you do not believe Christ's blood is sufficient to pay the penalty of sin. We do not have that problem.

 

[Zecryphon]

You think because we believe all men will be saved we think nothing of sin? And we could not possibly think others will be eternally roasted because we think nothing of sin? Man, have you got it all wrong! That is YOUR false assumption. You don't know how I see sin at all, you just think you do.

[/color]

"You think because we believe all men will be saved we think nothing of sin?"

I did not say that. Man, you jump to a lot of faulty conclusions. You think all people will go to Hell and have their sins burned away and then enter Heaven. Scripture does not support this idea. You obviously see sin as foul and an offense to God, the problem people like me have with people like you, is that you openly declare that the blood of Jesus is not sufficient to pay the penalty of sin, because we must go to Hell and burn for our sins. That's the problem!

"And we could not possibly think others will be eternally roasted because we think nothing of sin?"

No, you don't think anyone will be roasted for eternity, you believe that ALL people regardless of whether they're Christian or not will be roasted but not eternally. It has nothing to do with your view of sin or what I think about your view of sin, that's a strawman you've constructed.

"Man, have you got it all wrong!"

If what you've posted up above were really what I believed then yes, I would have it all wrong, but that's not what I said. That's just your misinterpretation of what I've said and believe.

"That is YOUR false assumption."

You've misinterpreted, once again, what I've posted. The problem here is you, not me.

"You don't know how I see sin at all, you just think you do."

Oh cry me a river Tavi! You're just SO misunderstood. Please. You take no time in understanding anyone else's point of view. You claim repeatedly that you were like us previously, but I've never seen anyone who believed as I do and as the people who oppose universalism do, fall into the heresy and the lie of the devil that is universalism. Your big problem is that you don't know what you're actually saying when you say that we must all have our sins burned off. By saying that you're saying that Jesus' shed blood, His death on the cross and His resurrection were not sufficient to pay the penalty of sin. You're actually saying that the power of sin is greater than the power of Christ.

How offensive you may view sin to be, is irrelevant at this point. You contend that the only way we can be saved is by going to Hell for an indeterminate amount of time, but certainly not eternity, to have our sins burned off until we are pure enough to enter Heaven, making Jesus' finished work on the cross unnecessary. The problem is not us, or how we understand your view of sin, the problem is your low view of scripture and how little stock you place in Jesus' finished work on the cross to pay the penalty for sin.

 

[Tavita]

We as Christians love everyone and wish for no one to go to Hell. That is one of the things that drives us to spread the gospel message. But according to what you believe this is a huge waste of time, because whether we're saved or not, we're all going to Hell to have our sins burned off before entering Heaven. It seems apparent from what you write that you do not believe Christ's blood is sufficient to pay the penalty of sin. We do not have that problem.

There you go with more assumptions. I would DESPERATELY want not only my family and friends to be saved NOW but all mankind. Going through the judgment of the Great White Throne is not going to be a picnic, it will be agonisingly painful. I would rather my loved ones to not only be saved from THAT, but that they would KNOW Jesus. I want them to know the love of Jesus NOW, in this lifetime. And that is why I still evangelize, and speak to them of a Savior who died for their sins because He loves them so much.

 

[Zecryphon]

You're so smart, Zecryphon..

You can drop the condescending tone anytime now. You're just embarassing yourself with such childish behavior.

 

[Zecryphon]

There you go with more assumptions. I would DESPERATELY want not only my family and friends to be saved NOW but all mankind. Going through the judgment of the Great White Throne is not going to be a picnic, it will be agonisingly painful. I would rather my loved ones to not only be saved from THAT, but that they would KNOW Jesus. I want them to know the love of Jesus NOW, in this lifetime. And that is why I still evangelize, and speak to them of a Savior who died for their sins because He loves them so much.

"There you go with more assumptions."

Wrong, there I go with conclusions based upon what you've written and with what you agree with.

"I would DESPERATELY want not only my family and friends to be saved NOW but all mankind. Going through the judgment of the Great White Throne is not going to be a picnic,"

Who said it was going to be a picnic?

"it will be agonisingly painful. I would rather my loved ones to not only be saved from THAT, but that they would KNOW Jesus. I want them to know the love of Jesus NOW, in this lifetime. And that is why I still evangelize, and speak to them of a Savior who died for their sins because He loves them so much."

Okay, but what are they being saved from, if according to what you apparently believe, we must all go to Hell and have our sins burned away, regardless of whether we are a Christian or not? What are these people you're evangelizing to being saved from, since eternal torture in Hell is not a reality, according to you? What are they being saved from? We all have to burn for our sins. If that's true, then Jesus' sacrifice was a waste of time, because that didn't pay the penalty of sin, only burning in Hell for an indeterminate amount of time does that. That's the major flaw with universalism, you want to have it both ways, but you can't. Either Jesus paid the penalty of sin with His finished work on the cross or He didn't. If He didn't and we have to go to Hell and pay for our sins ourselves by being burned, then our salvation rests upon our works, which is in direct violation of Ephesians 2:8-9.