Arghhhh!!!

[Zecryphon]

Acts 15:14 Declares that he will return again and restore the Tabernacle of David and then he will save the remainder of mankind

The Tabernacle of David is for it is mention hundreds of times in the Old Testament and especially in the Book of Revelations. Zion was the natural home of King David who is a type of Christ in Natural Jerusalem. Mt Zion was the head of natural Kingdom; just as Spiritual Mt Zion is the Spiritual high place of Christ in the book of Revelation. David did not need to go to a priest; let alone a high priest to visit the Ark (or the glory of God) it was in a tent or tabernacle on his back porch at Mt Zion. This is a beautiful type which tells us myriads of what God is tying to tell us in the Spirit of the Word.

God is speaking in a very symbolic language here; and the only true answer is not by some dead church leader; but by God’s Spirit with in you. What may I ask is spiritual to you? Going to church, singing, praying? What is spiritual to me is hearing what God is saying within.

The Holy Spirit is the only way scripture declares to us how to find truth; it says nothing about Lutheranism. The Holy Spirit is Devine part of God with in each one of us capable of speaking, loving, reproving, teaching, convicting and transforming; one that will lead and guide us into all truth. Have you ever heard God’s Spirit and if you have you ever followed its leading.

1 Corin 2:9 However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"[2] -- 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. 11The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[3] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:



Acts 15:17 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB) so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord— even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does these things,

Acts 15: 17 Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE) Then all the other people will find God, even those who are not Jews but who belong to me. So says the Lord, who is doing all these things."


Acts 15:17 (The Message) After this, I'm coming back; I'll rebuild David's ruined house;
I'll put all the pieces together again; I'll make it look like new
So outsiders who seek will find, so they'll have a place to come to,
All the pagan peoples included in what I'm doing.
"God said it and now he's doing it. It's no afterthought; he's always known he would do this.

"The Holy Spirit is the only way scripture declares to us how to find truth; it says nothing about Lutheranism."

Luther once said about the Reformation, that God's word did everything and he did nothing. You seem to be trying to say that my post was about Lutheranism, when in fact it was mostly giving you commentary from Matthew Henry on the tabernacle of David. You also haven't explained what the Melchizedek priesthood is and why people who disagree with you need to understand it.

"The Holy Spirit is Devine part of God"

All parts of God are divine, but I digress.

"with in each one of us capable of speaking, loving, reproving, teaching, convicting and transforming; one that will lead and guide us into all truth. Have you ever heard God’s Spirit and if you have you ever followed its leading."

What does that have to do with the topic at hand? You've brought up the priesthood and the tabernacle of David and now you want to discuss these side matters? Can you please stick to a topic?

"1 Corin 2:9 However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"[2] -- 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. 11The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[3] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:"

Agreed.



Acts 15:17 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB) so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord— even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does these things,

Acts 15: 17 Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE) Then all the other people will find God, even those who are not Jews but who belong to me. So says the Lord, who is doing all these things."


Acts 15:17 (The Message) After this, I'm coming back; I'll rebuild David's ruined house;
I'll put all the pieces together again; I'll make it look like new
So outsiders who seek will find, so they'll have a place to come to,
All the pagan peoples included in what I'm doing.
"God said it and now he's doing it. It's no afterthought; he's always known he would do this."

Okay, but how do those scriptures support your basic position of universalism? I just don't see it. If the redemptive work has already been done by Christ, why do we have to burn for our sins after we die before we enter Heaven?

 

[Zecryphon]

Yeah, human freedoms are so pointless nowadays. Wouldn't it be easier if the government watched our every move? Perhaps they should number us to help keep track. They could tatoo the numbers on our foreheads.

And I know this guy who wants to be 667, the neighbor of the beast.

/sarcasm off

"And I know this guy who wants to be 667, the neighbor of the beast."

You know 'Arry aka Steve Harris? I'm jealous. LOL

 

[Ben12]

I cannot even begin to describe what a monumental headache I now have reading through this thread.

To be honest…I personally do not fully understand Heaven and Hell and all in between. The only thing I’m absolutely certain of is that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for all believers’ sin and whatever the penalty is…we’re exempt from it.

Those who refuse Jesus Christ will not be exempt. Period.

What I would like to believe…is that the Lake of Fire…the second death is exactly that…complete death of body and soul. I’d like to believe those thrown into the Lake of Fire would be completely obliterated into a complete and total non-existence.

That’s what I would like to believe.

I do not want to consider that ANYONE would be in an eternal torment.

I would also like to believe that eternal torment is merely separation from God. Not some continual burning by a literal fire.

Whether I want to believe it or not…there is a significant amount of Scripture that certainly describes eternal damnation and torment. Which is the destination for those who refuse salvation through Jesus Christ.

In reading through this thread… Zecryphon has remained consistent and clear in his posting which he has also supported with appropriate Scripture.

Ben12 – here we are again…And I will express to you again the same concerns as I’ve had in the past regarding your posts….

Be careful you don’t become so puffed up in your pride that you explode. Please don’t forget…while you’re so focused on your “superior” knowledge and understanding…that it’s not about you. It’s about God and serving Him according to His good will and purpose. It’s not ALL about your personal edification.

Whether you like to consider it or not…”Baby lon” and the unsaved are why we’re here. We are here to be salt and light. We are here to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. IN TERMS THAT ARE UNDERSTANDABLE in truth and love to EVERYONE on every level.

Deeper levels of understanding will never contradict the plain meaning. It will only add to it…NEVER change it nor subtract from it.

And Tavita…I am totally blown away. The behavior and baiting for arguments sake I’ve seen from you in this thread and others….UNEXCUSABLE. There is nothing you could say from this point on that I could take to heart because of your lack of heart in your posts.

I’m amazed that Zecryphon kept his patience with you and Ben for as long as he did.

It would have been great if I could have gleaned some understanding from this thread which I admittedly lack…

But I tell you both Tavita and Ben12…you have not given God any glory in your posts. Exactly the opposite. You’ve glorified yourselves and your own understanding.

There is no way anyone could be edified or receive any benefit from your words.

PS...Bottom line....I TRUST GOD

You go on trusting God where you are; do me a favor do not read my comments.

 

[Tavita]

I cannot even begin to describe what a monumental headache I now have reading through this thread.

To be honest…I personally do not fully understand Heaven and Hell and all in between. The only thing I’m absolutely certain of is that Jesus Christ paid the penalty for all believers’ sin and whatever the penalty is…we’re exempt from it.

Those who refuse Jesus Christ will not be exempt. Period.

What I would like to believe…is that the Lake of Fire…the second death is exactly that…complete death of body and soul. I’d like to believe those thrown into the Lake of Fire would be completely obliterated into a complete and total non-existence.

That’s what I would like to believe.

I do not want to consider that ANYONE would be in an eternal torment.

I would also like to believe that eternal torment is merely separation from God. Not some continual burning by a literal fire.

Whether I want to believe it or not…there is a significant amount of Scripture that certainly describes eternal damnation and torment. Which is the destination for those who refuse salvation through Jesus Christ.

In reading through this thread… Zecryphon has remained consistent and clear in his posting which he has also supported with appropriate Scripture.

Ben12 – here we are again…And I will express to you again the same concerns as I’ve had in the past regarding your posts….

Be careful you don’t become so puffed up in your pride that you explode. Please don’t forget…while you’re so focused on your “superior” knowledge and understanding…that it’s not about you. It’s about God and serving Him according to His good will and purpose. It’s not ALL about your personal edification.

Whether you like to consider it or not…”Baby lon” and the unsaved are why we’re here. We are here to be salt and light. We are here to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. IN TERMS THAT ARE UNDERSTANDABLE in truth and love to EVERYONE on every level.

Deeper levels of understanding will never contradict the plain meaning. It will only add to it…NEVER change it nor subtract from it.

And Tavita…I am totally blown away. The behavior and baiting for arguments sake I’ve seen from you in this thread and others….UNEXCUSABLE. There is nothing you could say from this point on that I could take to heart because of your lack of heart in your posts.

I’m amazed that Zecryphon kept his patience with you and Ben for as long as he did.

It would have been great if I could have gleaned some understanding from this thread which I admittedly lack…

But I tell you both Tavita and Ben12…you have not given God any glory in your posts. Exactly the opposite. You’ve glorified yourselves and your own understanding.

There is no way anyone could be edified or receive any benefit from your words.

PS...Bottom line....I TRUST GOD

Thanks Cris413.

I've been in these forums for three years and have never had a run in like I have had with Zecrython. For some reason he rubbed me the wrong way. And I'm sorry I let it get to me. You're right, my witness in this thread was not Christlike.

PS.. I'm sorry Zecryphon for being rude and sarcastic to you and not being the normally quiet and peaceful person I usually am. In other words I'm sorry I didn't display Christian love to you.

 

[Ben12]

"The Holy Spirit is the only way scripture declares to us how to find truth; it says nothing about Lutheranism."

Luther once said about the Reformation, that God's word did everything and he did nothing. You seem to be trying to say that my post was about Lutheranism, when in fact it was mostly giving you commentary from Matthew Henry on the tabernacle of David. You also haven't explained what the Melchizedek priesthood is and why people who disagree with you need to understand it.

"The Holy Spirit is Devine part of God"

All parts of God are divine, but I digress.

"with in each one of us capable of speaking, loving, reproving, teaching, convicting and transforming; one that will lead and guide us into all truth. Have you ever heard God’s Spirit and if you have you ever followed its leading."

What does that have to do with the topic at hand? You've brought up the priesthood and the tabernacle of David and now you want to discuss these side matters? Can you please stick to a topic?

"1 Corin 2:9 However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him"[2] -- 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. 11The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[3] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:"

Agreed.



Acts 15:17 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB) so that those who are left of mankind may seek the Lord— even all the Gentiles who are called by My name, says the Lord who does these things,

Acts 15: 17 Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE) Then all the other people will find God, even those who are not Jews but who belong to me. So says the Lord, who is doing all these things."


Acts 15:17 (The Message) After this, I'm coming back; I'll rebuild David's ruined house;
I'll put all the pieces together again; I'll make it look like new
So outsiders who seek will find, so they'll have a place to come to,
All the pagan peoples included in what I'm doing.
"God said it and now he's doing it. It's no afterthought; he's always known he would do this."

Okay, but how do those scriptures support your basic position of universalism? I just don't see it. If the redemptive work has already been done by Christ, why do we have to burn for our sins after we die before we enter Heaven?

To understand Christian Universalism (CU); we reject the two thousand years of religious darkness; we understand why God has taken these many years to bring forth a people that hear His voice or The Holy Spirits anointing; not religion. (Anti anointing/anti Christ means the same thing. BUT we know the Spirit of truth is the ONLY source of truth. The corn the wine the oil; it is that perfect delicate balance or there is error.

You speak of God being holy; I agree; BUT God’s fire is spiritual not literal. God’s spirit burns in believer now that is why on the day of Pentecost believer got cloven tongues of fire; because we are not perfect; on the other hand Jesus got a dove because He is perfect; both dove and the fire are spiritual symbolic language. We are speaking of spiritual principles established not by some long dead church leader; but from the Bible.

The Lake of Fire as well as the Second Death are only in the Book of Revelations; and cannot be found any where else in scripture. Well Revelations means the Unveiling of Jesus Christ; BUT there are two spiritual principles that are its foundations. It was a spiritual book; because John was in Spirit on the Lord’s Day. As well as it is a book of spiritual symbolism; and is not literal

Yes there are literal Churches or assemblies; but there is a deep spiritual hidden mystery (Gk) sacred secret) The word mystery was used 27 times in NT) message under the surface. Look closely at that first chapter and there are all kinds of foundations that establish revelations in this context.

Many brother’s in the Lord try to spiritualize one part of Revelations, and then they will literalize another section when it fits their understanding; I see it totally as a spiritual book even when I am unsure of some of its meaning. Book of Revelations is the Revelation’s of Jesus Christ with in us; not without.

Revelations 1:1​

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:​

This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; ‘signified” or signs and symbols. The Book Revelations can only be understood not as a book of prophecy, or literally; but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible.

I truly believe God’s Word is hidden (mystery) for many reasons; that is why there are so many creed, religion and understandings in the Bible. If it were possible I believe if man could put the understandings in full understanding of the Book of Revelations in writing it would fill a library. When I see a symbol and apply to Revelations it needs to be used over and over again thought out the Bible; the lampstand is one small example: What an important symbol and I believe it has much to do with Isaiah 11:2 and the seven spirits of God that God has ordained to give us understanding.

The lamp stand was a piece of furniture that was in the Tabernacle in the wilderness as well as both temples. Like all the furniture in the temple there was always a much deeper and awesome meaning. I am just going to touch on a few thought I thought were interesting. So often God hides his glory from carnal man by types, shadows, parables, mysteries and hidden manna.

Lamp stand was made by beaten gold; that is the craftsman would literally beat the gold to desired shape. It takes heat and fire to purify many different precious metals; gold (Devine life); silver (redemption); brass (judgment); iron (will) and many other precious stones that are found in our earth; One Biblical exception is a pearl; the only jewel that comes from life.

1 Corinthians 3:15 ​

If any man's work shall be burned, he shall ​

suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. ​

The lamp had seven staffs attached to one staff; symbolic of seven spirits of God in Isaiah 11:2; but one God. Isaiah 11:2. Fire comes from the Greek word “pur” which we get our English word pure, purify, purge and purgatory and is symbolic of the purging power of Holy Spirit.

Everyday the priest would have to immerse the lamp in olive oil (symbolic of God’s anointing) and light the lamp with fire.

Then the light was placed in the Holy Place for light. The first court or the outer court had no lamp but was lit by the sun by day; but at night there was no lamp. The Holy of Holies also had no lamp either; for God’s Glory would be all the light it needed on the day of atonement.

 

[DeanM]

It is sarcasm for you to pretend to be able to comment on Christian things when, despite your self-proclaimed knowledge, you've never bothered to get any.

This from the guy who believes that the contents of 'The Message' are scripture. And why exactly can't I comment on Christian things again? Did I give up my freedom of speech already? Or does that happen tomorrow in your 'perfect' world? And what makes you think I don't believe in Jesus? Your assumptions still fascinate me. You do remember who you're talking to, don't you? You never did answer my question about why exactly you think it would be a good idea to mold Christian bands into the devil's musical styles. I'm still waiting on my answer.

Nothing in the Patriot Act or other protections against terrorism are aimed at anyone doing anything against law-abiding residents of the US, whether citizens or not. The listening posts set up by NSA to eavesdrop on terrorists around the world have already thwarted at least a half dozen plots to commit terrorist acts against US allies, if not against the US itself. The Patriot Act holds no fear for people not plotting to blow up anything or hijack planes or pollute water supplies or whatever else terrorists may deem as a strike at the heart of the US and its people.

America is based upon the idea of 'freedom of the people'. Lose the freedom, and what do we have left? Your world of Orwellian splendor? Given the choice, I'll take my chances with terrorists. All the terrorists want is to ruin America. If we followed your plan, the terrorists would have already won.

When are you and others going to realize that there is no negotiating or accommodating the extremists?

Again, you lump me in with everyone else. Hello! Independant free-thinker here!

You want peace with a rabid dog, a wild boar. There is no reasoning, there is no compromise.

You call them animals. Yet they pray every day. Animals pray now?

Their sole aim is to annihilate the nation and the people of this country. As they stand over you with sword in hand, do you honestly think your plea "I agree with you, this is a horrible nation" is going to stay your execution?

I would be thankful that I lived a short life of freedom, rather than a long life of fear and oppression.

And trust me, the extremists would delight in that scenario as they slice off your unthinking head.

Luckily, I'll never have to deal with that scenario because I'm not cowering to their threats. If you think freedom is what makes America so bad, you should move to China.



And my unthinking head is still attached...

 

[Ben12]

Here is a few things thrown together about fire. I do not believe in the Catholic terminology of purgatory but there are some reasons for the doctrine which most Protestants have not considered. But I do believe the Bible has types and patterns that reveal spiritual principles and you should do a study on fire in scripture and see what God is saying spiritually instead of a literal fire; remember God is a spirit not a brain. There is so much more to God’s fire but here are some interesting examples.

The word fire comes from the Greek word “pur’ which we get our English word pure, purify, purge and the good old catholic purgatory.

Fire was first used with the sacrifice of Able. Our flesh must be sacrificed to be in the presence of God. The sweat of Cain was not sufficient and was not an acceptable offering unto God for sin. All flesh (self) must be burnt by the fire of God.

Don't forget Daniels friend’s thrown in the Fiery Furnace in Babylon. Only their bondages were burn. Does not Baby lon speak of the religious/political systems of man? They were in Baby lon.
Dan 3:23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace. 24Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king. 25He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.


Gehenna: Referring to the Valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna which is the city dump outside the walls of Jerusalem; a place of constant burning of refuge. Those who go to Gehenna are not sinners of the world; but are sinners of God’s people. (how precious is this a type of purification outside of God’s holy city. All things that are not of God will be purified in God’s holy judgment. The point is simple in the 12 or 13 times that the Bible is referring to the word Gehenna it is directed towards God’s people and how important is to overcome sin.

Matthew 5:22 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, `Rica' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, `You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell (Ge-hen-na).

Matthew 5:29 It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell (Ge-hen-na).


Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Ge-hen-na)



Charles Pridgeon wrote: I would like to quote from his scholarly work on the subject of BRIMSTONE. He says: "The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it" -end quote.


Ps. 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits: and his ministers a flaming fire.

Baptized you with Holy Spirit and Fire

Isa. 48: 10
Isa 48:10
10 Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction. (KJV)

Fire melts spiritual principals until they are pure.


Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. (KJV)

Jesus eyes were like a flaming fire; Word of God is a two edged sword/ Flaming sword guarded: Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. (KJV)


Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 3. And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. (KJV)


Isa 9:18. For wickedness burneth as the fire: it shall devour the briers and thorns, and shall kindle in the thickets of the forest, and they shall mount up like the lifting up of smoke. 19. Through the wrath of the LORD of hosts is the land darkened, and the people shall be as the fuel of the fire: no man shall spare his brother. (KJV)

Consuming Fire:
Deut 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God. (KJV)

God will never abandon anyone. He will temporarily remove us from positive manifestations of His presence, but He will never abandon us. During the ages to come, His love will keep on being manifested until everyone is responding to it in a positive loving way. God will change the negative past into a glorious positive for everyone.
Fire makes glass malleable, and God's fire will make us malleable so that we will release ourselves into His hands. Iron ore is useless until it is put into the fire to remove the slag. The result is pig-iron which is still useless. But through a second firing with molten salt, the very finest of steel is made. Molten salt rearranges the molecules so they are all going in the same direction. The finest of steel is used in automobile springs. They absorb the road-shock so you can ride in comfort. When all the "molecules" of our spirit cooperate with each other and cease their internal struggle, there will be a reconciliation to God's will and the resulting enjoyment of His positive blessings. God's fire will get rid of everything in everyone that causes them to be useless.
In England, they manufacture a certain kind of chinaware that is put through the fire eighteen times. The resulting product will not shatter, but will bounce when dropped, When God has finished with everyone, He will have purged out all of the dross so that
when they receive a blow, it will only propel them higher into the positive realms, "For everyone shall be salted with fire." Mark 9:49.

 

[Tavita]

And Tavita…I am totally blown away. The behavior and baiting for arguments sake I’ve seen from you in this thread and others….UNEXCUSABLE. There is nothing you could say from this point on that I could take to heart because of your lack of heart in your posts.

Even though I take full responsibility for my words, intents and actions in these threads, and have apologized, I feel something is wrong here.

Cris413, you have done well to point out my foolishness to me, but I'd like to ask you why you have only picked on Ben and myself? There are others in these threads who have been many times worse in attitude and who have not portrayed the love of Christ, who yell and scream back at us (in large font) and tell us what heretics we are, who twist our words, and tell us we are liars, that we don't believe in the power of Christ's sacrifice, that we are deluded and live on another planet... and yet that is alright to you? Can you please explain?

 

[Cris413]

You go on trusting God where you are; do me a favor do not read my comments.

Absolutely...I will continue to trust God with all my heart.

Thing is, I stopped reading your posts a long time ago. I felt compelled to read through this thread though...something else I don't normally do...read through an entire thread.

It didn't take long to figure out your posts are not only unscriptural but incoherent and full of pride and disdain for those you consider less knowledgeable..."baby lon".

Reminds me of the mustard seed parable...

Matthew 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

v32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

You're all about deeper meaning...does a mustard seed naturally grow into a tree? Mustard plants only grow to be thick bushes about 3 ft tall. Wouldn't a mustard tree...be an abomination?

What are the birds of the air? Who is the prince of the air? Could these be the same birds who stole away the seeds in the parable of the sower?

The deeper meaning of this parable is a warning not to grow into an abomination where the ministers of the enemy come and take up residence.

I'll do myself a favor...unless the Lord leads me otherwise...

 

[Cris413]

Even though I take full responsibility for my words, intents and actions in these threads, and have apologized, I feel something is wrong here.

Cris413, you have done well to point out my foolishness to me, but I'd like to ask you why you have only picked on Ben and myself? There are others in these threads who have been many times worse in attitude and who have not portrayed the love of Christ, who yell and scream back at us (in large font) and tell us what heretics we are, who twist our words, and tell us we are liars, that we don't believe in the power of Christ's sacrifice, that we are deluded and live on another planet... and yet that is alright to you? Can you please explain?

As I mentioned to Ben, I normally don’t read his posts anymore and I normally don’t read through entire threads.

But last night, I felt compelled to read through this thread…not that I am worthy for God to use me in anyway…but obviously God spoke to your heart at exactly the right time. And that is awesome!

It’s not my job to be the forum decorum police (please pardon the poetry) and I try not to get involved when things start running amuck. God has spoken to my heart that I too have a tendency to get carried away sometimes… and I have to continually pray that God put a guard on my lips (and my keyboard).

I’ve lost it several times posting in this forum. Praise God there is forgiveness for a repentant heart.

There is however, IMHO, a huge difference between being bold for the Word and simply being argumentative for arguments sake.

If by “others” you mean Nadiine (pardon my assumption) All I have to say about that is…

Nadiine’s post have always been consistent; coherent and backed up with sound Scripture. If God ever leads me to admonish Nadiine…I wouldn’t hesitate.

Normally what I see…is Nadiine will boldly post Scripture that supports her understanding and people rip her to shreds and bait her into an unhealthy dialog.

It’s not good when anyone falls into that type of trap. I’ve been caught in that snare many times as well.

And that is exactly what it is…a snare of the enemy…to ALL of us.

You’re absolutely right. Name-calling and personal attacks do not give glory to God and please don’t assume that it’s “alright with me”.

And when our hearts are open to conviction and taking responsibility for our words and intent....how awesome…that to me is evidence of the Holy Spirit at work.

 

[Ben12]

Absolutely...I will continue to trust God with all my heart.

Thing is, I stopped reading your posts a long time ago. I felt compelled to read through this thread though...something else I don't normally do...read through an entire thread.

It didn't take long to figure out your posts are not only unscriptural but incoherent and full of pride and disdain for those you consider less knowledgeable..."baby lon".

Reminds me of the mustard seed parable...

Matthew 13:31 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field:

v32 Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof.

You're all about deeper meaning...does a mustard seed naturally grow into a tree? Mustard plants only grow to be thick bushes about 3 ft tall. Wouldn't a mustard tree...be an abomination?

What are the birds of the air? Who is the prince of the air? Could these be the same birds who stole away the seeds in the parable of the sower?

The deeper meaning of this parable is a warning not to grow into an abomination where the ministers of the enemy come and take up residence.

I'll do myself a favor...unless the Lord leads me otherwise...

I confused; should I ignore your post or answer them? A mustard seed has only one type of faith; "the faith to grow" that is all a mustard seed can do. Air speaks of the spiritual and yes birds and the prince of the air stole away the seed; but the seed that was not planted deep.

The deeper meaning of this parable speaks of a faith to grow/mature beyond baby principles. So you can handle the meat of God’s Word that takes mature developed spiritual teeth so you can chew on it; and will not choke spiritually. God’s Word is deep; but there is also a birthing into the kingdom; you all speak of born again; which the vast majority are but justified by faith. It takes nine long months to bring forth a man child once the seed is planted. Some never grow beyond the conception stage, there is a lot of darkness in the womb.

What I speak of is rejected by all of you; there is no glory; do you know my name? That is one of the reasons I love this Forum; we can openly discuss God’s Word. The very word Universalist (which is but a label) was not even tolerated on this Forum a few months ago; and most Forums it is still rejected. The personal attacks; the pre conceived hatred is so apparent towards us every time we begin a debate; or when we step into one.


1 Corin. 1:25 (amp) [This is] because the foolish thing [that has its source in] God is wiser than men, and the weak thing [that springs] from God is stronger than men.
26For [simply] consider your own call, brethren; not many [of you were considered to be] wise according to human estimates and standards, not many influential and powerful, not many of high and noble birth.
27[No] for God selected (deliberately chose) what in the world is foolish to put the wise to shame, and what the world calls weak to put the strong to shame.
28And God also selected (deliberately chose) what in the world is lowborn and insignificant and branded and treated with contempt, even the things that are nothing, that He might depose and bring to nothing the things that are,
29So that no mortal man should [have pretense for glorying and] boast in the presence of God.
30But it is from Him that you have your life in Christ Jesus, Whom God made our Wisdom from God, [revealed to us a knowledge of the divine plan of salvation previously hidden, manifesting itself as] our Righteousness [thus making us upright and putting us in right standing with God], and our Consecration [making us pure and holy], and our Redemption [providing our ransom from eternal penalty for sin].

I know I offend

 

[Ben12]

As I mentioned to Ben, I normally don’t read his posts anymore and I normally don’t read through entire threads.

But last night, I felt compelled to read through this thread…not that I am worthy for God to use me in anyway…but obviously God spoke to your heart at exactly the right time. And that is awesome!

It’s not my job to be the forum decorum police (please pardon the poetry) and I try not to get involved when things start running amuck. God has spoken to my heart that I too have a tendency to get carried away sometimes… and I have to continually pray that God put a guard on my lips (and my keyboard).

I’ve lost it several times posting in this forum. Praise God there is forgiveness for a repentant heart.

There is however, IMHO, a huge difference between being bold for the Word and simply being argumentative for arguments sake.

If by “others” you mean Nadiine (pardon my assumption) All I have to say about that is…

Nadiine’s post have always been consistent; coherent and backed up with sound Scripture. If God ever leads me to admonish Nadiine…I wouldn’t hesitate.

Normally what I see…is Nadiine will boldly post Scripture that supports her understanding and people rip her to shreds and bait her into an unhealthy dialog.

It’s not good when anyone falls into that type of trap. I’ve been caught in that snare many times as well.

And that is exactly what it is…a snare of the enemy…to ALL of us.

You’re absolutely right. Name-calling and personal attacks do not give glory to God and please don’t assume that it’s “alright with me”.

And when our hearts are open to conviction and taking responsibility for our words and intent....how awesome…that to me is evidence of the Holy Spirit at work.

We are all flesh; God created us that way for a reason; it is the Christ life; the fruit of the Spirit; that is what matters. I am just as guilty. I wish we were a perfect place; and that promise is on the horizon; mean while God is doing a deep work in the earth; your earth, my earth the whole earth; that will hear His voice.

 

[Zecryphon]

PS.. I'm sorry Zecryphon for being rude and sarcastic to you and not being the normally quiet and peaceful person I usually am. In other words I'm sorry I didn't display Christian love to you.

I forgive you. Do not let our past clashes trouble you further.

 

[Cris413]

I confused; should I ignore your post or answer them? A mustard seed has only one type of faith; "the faith to grow" that is all a mustard seed can do. Air speaks of the spiritual and yes birds and the prince of the air stole away the seed; but the seed that was not planted deep.

The deeper meaning of this parable speaks of a faith to grow/mature beyond baby principles. So you can handle the meat of God&#8217;s Word that takes mature developed spiritual teeth so you can chew on it; and will not choke spiritually. <snip>

I disagree...this parable is a warning against becoming so overgrown that that the enemy takes up residense on you.

As yes Ben...in the parable of the sower...those seeds fell by the wayside...

Question is...when we pass by these waysided seeds in our walk...do we crush them under the weight of our vast knowledge? Or do we pick them up, plant them and water them and trust God will provide the increase?

Praise God if one of His children gets to the wayside seed before the birds of the air feast on them.

And while, were discussing birds...yes we are flesh...but we are to walk in the Spirit. We may not be able to keep a bird from flying over our heads...but we can certainly keep them from building a nest there.

 

[Tavita]

As I mentioned to Ben, I normally don’t read his posts anymore and I normally don’t read through entire threads.

But last night, I felt compelled to read through this thread…not that I am worthy for God to use me in anyway…but obviously God spoke to your heart at exactly the right time. And that is awesome!

It’s not my job to be the forum decorum police (please pardon the poetry) and I try not to get involved when things start running amuck. God has spoken to my heart that I too have a tendency to get carried away sometimes… and I have to continually pray that God put a guard on my lips (and my keyboard).

I’ve lost it several times posting in this forum. Praise God there is forgiveness for a repentant heart.

There is however, IMHO, a huge difference between being bold for the Word and simply being argumentative for arguments sake.

If by “others” you mean Nadiine (pardon my assumption) All I have to say about that is…

Nadiine’s post have always been consistent; coherent and backed up with sound Scripture. If God ever leads me to admonish Nadiine…I wouldn’t hesitate.

Normally what I see…is Nadiine will boldly post Scripture that supports her understanding and people rip her to shreds and bait her into an unhealthy dialog.

It’s not good when anyone falls into that type of trap. I’ve been caught in that snare many times as well.

And that is exactly what it is…a snare of the enemy…to ALL of us.

You’re absolutely right. Name-calling and personal attacks do not give glory to God and please don’t assume that it’s “alright with me”.

And when our hearts are open to conviction and taking responsibility for our words and intent....how awesome…that to me is evidence of the Holy Spirit at work.

I can agree with most of what you have written, except for this....

Normally what I see…is Nadiine will boldly post Scripture that supports her understanding and people rip her to shreds and bait her into an unhealthy dialog.

Nadiine has toned down a lot in this thread, but in the beginning of all the threads concerning universalism, she has torn people to shreds, yelled, screamed, attacked and been VERY consistent in arguing.... all in the name of trying to douse the flames of a so-called heresy. And all it accomplished was in getting peoples' backs up. You say she was baited into an unhealthy dialog, but we feel it was the reverse.

However, I do have to admit that she has changed a great deal, and I give her credit for it. And I find it easier to post with her as well.

 

[Tavita]

I forgive you. Do not let our past clashes trouble you further.

Thank you.

 

[Ben12]

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I disagree...this parable is a warning against becoming so overgrown that that the enemy takes up residense on you.

As yes Ben...in the parable of the sower...those seeds fell by the wayside...

Question is...when we pass by these waysided seeds in our walk...do we crush them under the weight of our vast knowledge? Or do we get pick them up, plant them and water them and trust God will provide the increase?

Praise God if one of His children gets to the wayside seed before the birds of the air feast on them.

And while, were discussing birds...yes we are flesh...but we are to walk in the Spirit. We may not be able to keep a bird from flying over our heads...but we can certainly keep them from building a nest there.

That is one thing about a parable; what matters is how God speaks to your heart. I know God is in control of all those seeds and in His timing will totally restore and redeem every single one of them; because that is His nature.


He is a God who does will the salvation for all of His creation; He is not a God who wills billions to be tortured eternally. There is nothing Holy and rightous about torture.

 

[Zecryphon]

"To understand Christian Universalism (CU); we reject the two thousand years of religious darkness;"


Why? First, how are you defining darkness and second upon whose authority do you act in rejection of anything? If this statement by you is true, then the entirety of the NT must be disregarded by you as it is a product of the last two thousand years of religion, as you'd call it. I think what you're doing is going through the last two thousand years and disregarding the things you don't like based upon your own personal standard of
what is true. That's called bias, and your posts are full of bias as are you.


"we understand why God has taken these many years to bring forth a people that hear His voice or The Holy Spirits anointing; not religion."


Okay, plese share that understanding with us. Why has it taken God this long to do this?


"(Anti anointing/anti Christ means the same thing. BUT we know the Spirit of truth is the ONLY source of truth. The corn the wine the oil; it is that perfect delicate balance or there is error."


But there is no balance in your spiritual life as you do not sit under qualified teachers and you have forsaken the assembling of the saints. We are commanded not to forsake the assembly as written in Hebrews 10:25. If you are a member of the body of Christ, as you claim to be, you are commanded to assemble together with other members of the body and receive sound instruction from an appointed teacher, who has been called by God to that role.

"You speak of God being holy; I agree; BUT God&#8217;s fire is spiritual not literal."


What does the word literal mean to you? You can not say with any authority that God does not use literal fire and all His fire is spiritual. What kind of fire was it that levelled Sodom and Gommorah? Was that spiritual too?


"God&#8217;s spirit burns in believer now that is why on the day of Pentecost believer got cloven tongues of fire;"


Do you believe the tongues of fire that the believers received were spiritual too? Because when you use adjectives, you're describing a physical object or phenomenon. The writer used these words to describe actual fire, so people could envision it. If the fire was spiritual and therefore, not seen, why use words that typically describe objects that can be seen? It doesn't make sense.


"because we are not perfect; on the other hand Jesus got a dove because He is perfect; both dove and the fire are spiritual symbolic language."


If you take this obsession you have with symbolism far enough you'll eventually conclude that the very words we use are symbolic as well. Once you get to this point, you're open to all sorts of different interpretations of what words mean and you will question everything and question yourself right out of faith. You'll start asking, 'what does that word really mean, since it is nothing more than a symbol to represent or communicate an idea, a concept or an object." When you consider everything to have a deeper meaning and go looking for it as you do regularly, you start to believe that the literal reading just can not be true, when in a lot of cases it is. You start inventing your own truth and then, you're a full-blow postmodern Christian. Where you and you alone decide what is true. The devil loves those Christians.


"We are speaking of spiritual principles established not by some long dead church leader; but from the Bible."


You can't be, you have already dismissed the last 2,000 years, since the NT falls under that time period, you can't use it, because your standard is that anything that is from the last 2,000 years of church history is disregarded by you.

"The Lake of Fire as well as the Second Death are only in the Book of Revelations; and cannot be found any where else in scripture."


False. See here. This is an excerpt from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. Do you have one of these? Mine is an add-on module for e-Sword. Great resource. Anyway here is the excerpt:


The Scriptural source for the conception of "the lake of fire" lies in Gen_19:24, where already the fire and the brimstone occur together, while the locality of the catastrophe described is the neighborhood of the Dead Sea. The association of the Dead Sea with this fearful judgment of God, together with the desolate appearance of the place, rendered it a striking figure for the scene of eschatological retribution. The two other Old Testament passages which have "fire and brimstone" (Psa_11:6; Eze_38:22) are dependent on the Gen passage, with which they have the figure of "raining" in common.

"Well Revelations means the Unveiling of Jesus Christ; BUT there are two spiritual principles that are its foundations."

Once again, it's called Revelation, not Revelations. This book deals with Christ's revelation to John about the end of the world and the new world to come.

"It was a spiritual book; because John was in Spirit on the Lord&#8217;s Day."

What do you mean by this?

"As well as it is a book of spiritual symbolism; and is not literal"

That is your opinion and not an established fact.

"Yes there are literal Churches or assemblies; but there is a deep spiritual hidden mystery (Gk) sacred secret)"


There can be nothing literal in a spiritual book or a book of symbolism. If you say the entire book is symbolic then it only stands to reason that the assemblies and churches contained therein are symbols as well. You can't pick and choose when it's literal or when it's spiritual whenever you feel like it.


"Many brother&#8217;s in the Lord try to spiritualize one part of Revelations, and then they will literalize another section when it fits their understanding; I see it totally as a spiritual book even when I am unsure of some of its meaning."


No you don't, because you've just said that you take the assemblies and the churches mentioned in Revelation literally. I take the entire book literally.


"Book of Revelations is the Revelation&#8217;s of Jesus Christ with in us; not without."


It is a book that reveals Christ's judgment upon mankind. That is the role He will be fulfilling when He comes again. He is coming not as messiah, but as a judge and executioner of His Father's will.

Revelations 1:1

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

This one little word is so reverent to the whole book Revelations; &#8216;signified&#8221; or signs and symbols."​

The text plainly says that it is a revelation of things that must come to pass. That means actual events. You're ignoring the definition of the word signify which is "to denote" or "to make known". The text plainly says that Jesus used signified this by an angel, which means He used an angel to make known this revelation. It does not mean that the entire book, based upon this one word, which you clearly don't understand the definition of, is symbolic.​

"The Book Revelations can only be understood not as a book of prophecy, or literally; but as a very deep and awesome spiritual book by using signs and symbols that can only be found in the Bible."​

Wrong.​

"I truly believe God&#8217;s Word is hidden (mystery) for many reasons; that is why there are so many creed,"​

Stop right there. Do you know what a creed is? It's a statement of faith. The Apostle's Creed, while not written by the apostles, is the most basic confession of Christian faith there is and has been used as a basic statement of faith for churches throughout the centuries who could not think of a way to express their beliefs succinctly.​

"religion and understandings in the Bible. If it were possible I believe if man could put the understandings in full understanding of the Book of Revelations in writing it would fill a library."​

And how much of that library would be God's truth? Probably not a whole lot. Since man would be relying on his understanding and what he thinks God is trying to say to us instead of taking God at His revealed written word to us.​

I am hereby ignoring the rest of your message as you have not demonstrated an ability to take God at His word and insist on trusting your own interpretations and leaning on your own understandings of what He has made plain and simple for all to see. You say the Holy Spirit is your teacher, but I know that is not the spirit to which you are speaking. The spirit to whom you are speaking encourages you to lean upon your own understanding and wisdom, that spirit is not of God. ​

Tavita, if you're wondering how I can rebuke Ben like this, remember, I'm just following the example of Christ who rebuked the religious people of the day who leaned upon their own understandings of the scriptures and did not trust in God. That is what I feel Ben is doing here.​

​

 

[Zecryphon]

That is one thing about a parable; what matters is how God speaks to your heart. I know God is in control of all those seeds and in His timing will totally restore and redeem every single one of them; because that is His nature.


He is a God who does will the salvation for all of His creation; He is not a God who wills billions to be tortured eternally. There is nothing Holy and rightous about torture.

"He is a God who does will the salvation for all of His creation; He is not a God who wills billions to be tortured eternally. There is nothing Holy and rightous about torture."

Yes there is, but your bias against retribution by God won't let you see it. If you sin against a holy God, you are unholy. By sinning against an eternal God, the punishment is eternal as well. The punishment fits the crime. It's God's standard of what is right and wrong and just that is in play here, not yours.

 

[Zecryphon]

Thank you.

Tavita, later on, I'm going to send you a PM telling you a bit about my background and how I came to be the type of poster I am now. I think it will help us work through our differences. I have no ill-feelings towards you or anyone else on this board. You are all brothers and sisters in Christ and I love you all. I may speak harshly at times, and I have in the past and still do, but I am human and can err and for my abruptness and harsh tones, I ask forgiveness as well. But just because I am harsh and abrupt and "in your face" at times, doesn't mean I hate you. A lot of people take it that way and that's just not the case.