Are You as Blessed as Mary?

[PassthePeace1]

There is no reason to Keep Gods word from any eyes. For it is in the scripture that truth is revealed. Many have become saved by just reading Scripture.. To deny anyone Gods written word is indeed denying them access to God. For it is in Scripture that men and women can come to know the Living one and only True God.

So would you pass out JW bibles, so that the lost might be saved?

 

[HisBelovedMelody]

Actually that is not completely true. I suppose it would depend on whether you were an amillenialist, premillenialist, or postmillenialist.

I have NO clue what any of those are..don't care to know. All I DO know is MOST of the stuff in Revelation hasn't happened yet...some has started...and I HOPE to God when it really does start to happen..I am out of here.

 

[sunlover1]

[/b][/i]

Really, would you hand out JW and Mormon bibles?

Has nothing to do with what I posted.
That ban was for OT and NT, not translations
specifically.

Latin was not a "dead language" at that time, and would have certianly been understandable, for few people that were literate.

It makes no difference.
There is no valid reason ever to ban the
reading of the Word of God.

But anywho...this is really getting off topic, open a thread in GT, if you want to discuss it in more detail.

Peace be with you....Pam

Great idea.
This is one subject that will bring out
some passion in me, and I don't
want it directed at you Pam.

Blessings
sunlover

 

[PassthePeace1]

Has nothing to do with what I posted.
That ban was for OT and NT, not translations
specifically.



It makes no difference.
There is no valid reason ever to ban the
reading of the Word of God.



Great idea.
This is one subject that will bring out
some passion in me, and I don't
want it directed at you Pam.

Blessings
sunlover

Great! It's a passion of mine too...I will look for it, later on this evening when I get home....Peace be with you..Pam

 

[sunlover1]

in that I have heard God & obeyed.

Thank you.
I don't see anything evil
in this statement.

sunlover

 

[Rick Otto]

for posting this:
Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.

I had never actualy seen it. It is a good example of good intentions being misused.

Pass The Peace, you're "Would you pass out JW translations" is wildly amiss.
Instead of outlawing ownership, or passing out Albigensian translations(a more apt comparison), the council could have passed out copies of their OWN translations.
Had their intent been purely to prevent heresy & promote truth, that option would've been obvious.
Instead, they chose to suppress ALL of it & reinforce their monopoly.

 

[IamAdopted]

So would you pass out JW bibles, so that the lost might be saved?

I am talking more on the cc not allowing the scriptures to be read by thier own people in thier own language..condemning those who had one and calling the heretics because the truth revealed in the scriptures did line up with what the RCC wanted them to say. Bringing many to question what they were being taught..

 

[PassthePeace1]

Pass The Peace, you're "Would you pass out JW translations" is wildly amiss.
Instead of outlawing ownership, or passing out Albigensian translations(a more apt comparison), the council could have passed out copies of their OWN translations.
Had their intent been purely to prevent heresy & promote truth, that option would've been obvious.
Instead, they chose to suppress ALL of it & reinforce their monopoly.

Since the printing press, had not been invented in 1229, it would have been difficult, to pass out copies "of their OWN translations". Each one would have, had to be copied by hand, that would take years, and would have been very expensive.

Most churches, during that time, would have a copy that was available for those that could read. They even had to chain it in place, to keep people from stealing it....books for the reasons mentioned above, were rare and valuable.

Anywho, Sunlover has her thread up in GT, this can be discussed there, in more detail...so we can get back to Mary.

 

[Rick Otto]

"Not Convenient"?

Would've been great fun, and a marvelous tradition for pios priests, monks & nuns to teach the local peasant children to read & write using scripture?

Each student, child & adult alike, could write 2 or three words themselves, every Sunday, and eventualy have their VERY OWN COPY in their own hand. Think how far & fast the Gospel would've spread. Think of all the sin & pain that could've been avoided by better knowlege of scripture... ah, now I'm tempted to wax grandiose, LOL.

Mary didn't have a copy of the New Testament, either. Could we say we're more blessed than her in that respect?

 

[Quijote]

Mary didn't have a copy of the New Testament, either. Could we say we're more blessed than her in that respect?

Ahh, but she had The WORD! By that standard, she's more blessed than us in that respect!

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Ahh, but she had The WORD! By that standard, she's more blessed than us in that respect!

WORD!

Forgive me...

 

[Proeliator]

for posting this:
Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.

I had never actualy seen it. It is a good example of good intentions being misused.

Pass The Peace, you're "Would you pass out JW translations" is wildly amiss.
Instead of outlawing ownership, or passing out Albigensian translations(a more apt comparison), the council could have passed out copies of their OWN translations.
Had their intent been purely to prevent heresy & promote truth, that option would've been obvious.
Instead, they chose to suppress ALL of it & reinforce their monopoly.

You act as though that day and age was the same as this one. The education of the people was on a completely different level, to the point where the vast majority of the population couldn't have read the Scriptures anyway.

I am talking more on the cc not allowing the scriptures to be read by thier own people in thier own language..condemning those who had one and calling the heretics because the truth revealed in the scriptures did line up with what the RCC wanted them to say. Bringing many to question what they were being taught..

So you want to go embrace heresy? Oh wait no, your saying that it may not even have been heresy at all, that it just didn't line up with what the Catholic Church taught. It is because of things like this ban that you even have a chance to sit and try to bash the Catholic Church. People love to sit and talk about the Holy Spirit is who preserved the faith, and they are right. The Holy Spirit preserved the faith through the Apostolic Catholic Church. To try and say that the Roman Catholic Church suddenly was thrown by God out to the wolves at the time of the "Reformation", is just silly. That would be like Jesus casting out the 12 when they got something wrong. It's all built on the back of humanity, which has its weaknesses. Don't demean God to try and back up your "ideas".

 

[PassthePeace1]

"Not Convenient"?

Would've been great fun, and a marvelous tradition for pios priests, monks & nuns to teach the local peasant children to read & write using scripture?

Each student, child & adult alike, could write 2 or three words themselves, every Sunday, and eventualy have their VERY OWN COPY in their own hand. Think how far & fast the Gospel would've spread. Think of all the sin & pain that could've been avoided by better knowlege of scripture... ah, now I'm tempted to wax grandiose, LOL.

In 1229, they did not have the modern technology, we have today...life was short and hard. Most parents would have considered the time learning how to read, a waste of time....considering there where more important things to be doing...like growing enough to eat, plus save for the winter.

My grandfather's family were sharecroppers, and both he and his younger brother had to drop out of school, at the 6th grade...because they were of age to work in the fields. He could barely read and write....education wasn't a top priorty in 1020s rural Texas.

Mary didn't have a copy of the New Testament, either. Could we say we're more blessed than her in that respect?

Which begs the question, could she have read it if she had one?

 

[Rick Otto]

are those darned Albegensians & Catharists!
Despite the low-tech, high labor, low literacy environment, how did THEY do it enough for Rome to notice? And without the wealth and power to command of all the Papal States we now know as Italy?

Should we stop production of books until everyone knows how to read?
How they gonna start without somethin' good in their hands?
What did your ancestors do on Sundays?

"It is because of things like this ban that you even have a chance to sit and try to bash the Catholic Church."

That is a pretty tight circle of reasoning, unless you mean things like the ban are indeed invitations for rebuke.
To suggest a ban on the proliferation of scripture copies including the Vulgate has bestowed the freedom of speech we enjoy in criticising it, is as illogical as I've seen in awhile.

Proeliator,
remember Ezekial's complaint to God about there being no more true belivers in Isreal?

 

[IamAdopted]

You act as though that day and age was the same as this one. The education of the people was on a completely different level, to the point where the vast majority of the population couldn't have read the Scriptures anyway.



So you want to go embrace heresy? Oh wait no, your saying that it may not even have been heresy at all, that it just didn't line up with what the Catholic Church taught. It is because of things like this ban that you even have a chance to sit and try to bash the Catholic Church. People love to sit and talk about the Holy Spirit is who preserved the faith, and they are right. The Holy Spirit preserved the faith through the Apostolic Catholic Church. To try and say that the Roman Catholic Church suddenly was thrown by God out to the wolves at the time of the "Reformation", is just silly. That would be like Jesus casting out the 12 when they got something wrong. It's all built on the back of humanity, which has its weaknesses. Don't demean God to try and back up your "ideas".

Many of the reformers that you call them as they printed and read the bible for themselves and in thier own language is when all of this all started.. They started to see Gods truth revealed to them.. They went to the Church. The asked questions.. They got rebuffed.. Many of them raised with the teachings of the church.. Look at the crusades and what happened to some of those that went out from the CC.. Wycliff,being just one.. I have read the History just lately with some of this.. Christ did not go out and hunt heretics. Christ did not burn people at the stake for preaching in opposition of Him.. But yet the cc and the Pope declared war on these people.. They burned bibles and people.. Now from what I understand the Pope is to be the vicar of Christ. Now why on earth would this person that is to be a representative of Christ do such things.. Jesus tells us that we will know His true followers by their fruit.. Jesus never once even reviled back when He was beaten and scourged.. This is one of my main concerns.. THE FRUIT.. Look at the fruit..

 

[Quijote]

are those darned Albegensians & Catharists!
Despite the low-tech, high labor, low literacy environment, how did THEY do it enough for Rome to notice? And without the wealth and power to command of all the Papal States we now know as Italy?

They never [mis]translated the entire Bible. Only parts of the Gospel and the NT (if memory serves me right).

Should we stop production of books until everyone knows how to read?

I don't think anyone has suggested that.

How they gonna start without somethin' good in their hands?

You're assuming that because people couldn't read they couldn't be educated (or at least, it looks to me as if you were assuming that). Everday people learned their "Bible" from going to Church and hearing it preached and from looking at art (stained glas windows, paintings, etc.)

That is a pretty tight circle of reasoning, unless you mean things like the ban are indeed invitations for rebuke.
To suggest a ban on the proliferation of scripture copies including the Vulgate has bestowed the freedom of speech we enjoy in criticising it, is as illogical as I've seen in awhile.

I think you've missed her point. It is thanks to bans on proliferation of mistranlations of the Bible that we have the Bible as we do today

 

[IamAdopted]

In 1229, they did not have the modern technology, we have today...life was short and hard. Most parents would have considered the time learning how to read, a waste of time....considering there where more important things to be doing...like growing enough to eat, plus save for the winter.

My grandfather's family were sharecroppers, and both he and his younger brother had to drop out of school, at the 6th grade...because they were of age to work in the fields. He could barely read and write....education wasn't a top priorty in 1020s rural Texas.




Which begs the question, could she have read it if she had one?

Pope Innocent III stated in 1199:

... to be reproved are those who translate into French the Gospels, the letters of Paul, the psalter, etc. They are moved by a certain love of Scripture in order to explain them clandestinely and to preach them to one another. The mysteries of the faith are not to explained rashly to anyone. Usually in fact, they cannot be understood by everyone but only by those who are qualified to understand them with informed intelligence. The depth of the divine Scriptures is such that not only the illiterate and uninitiated have difficulty understanding them, but also the educated and the gifted (Denzinger-Schönmetzer, Enchiridion Symbolorum 770-771) He is saying here even the educated and the gifted cannot understand
​

 

[PassthePeace1]

Pope Innocent III stated in 1199:

... to be reproved are those who translate into French the Gospels, the letters of Paul, the psalter, etc. They are moved by a certain love of Scripture in order to explain them clandestinely and to preach them to one another. The mysteries of the faith are not to explained rashly to anyone. Usually in fact, they cannot be understood by everyone but only by those who are qualified to understand them with informed intelligence. The depth of the divine Scriptures is such that not only the illiterate and uninitiated have difficulty understanding them, but also the educated and the gifted (Denzinger-Schönmetzer, Enchiridion Symbolorum 770-771) He is saying here even the educated and the gifted cannot understand​

Do you have a link, to where you got this...so the document can be viewed in it's full context.

If I remember correctly, Pope Innocent was dealing with the Albigensus and their heresies, so the quote from which this document was taken, might be dealing with the issues with the Albigensus.

 

[Proeliator]

Many of the reformers that you call them as they printed and read the bible for themselves and in thier own language is when all of this all started.. They started to see Gods truth revealed to them.. They went to the Church. The asked questions.. They got rebuffed.. Many of them raised with the teachings of the church..

Okay, I'll just operate on the premise here that you just don't know Protestant church history.

Martin Luther, was a priest, read Scripture in Latin.
John Calvin, was a priest, read Scripture in Latin.
Huldrych Zwingli, was a priest, read Scripture in Latin.

Thats pretty much it for the beginning Reformers. I mean, we can include Johann Eck, Jan Huss, John Wycliffe, but they we're all either priests or theologians, which means that they first read Scripture in Latin. None of this they read it in their own language and started asking questions. They read Jerome's Vulgate. You say that they started to see God's truth revealed to them, then answer me this. Why for the 1200 or so years before, did God's truth never reveal itself in the same huge way as it did with these men? If for 1200 years Christ had no issue with the way His Church was going, and just corrected the things that needed correcting in it; why did suddenly Luther, Wycliffe, etc, not "reform" the Church, but instead practically reinvented it? I really do wonder how much of what these men wrote you have ever read, before you jump on their backs about the Reformation.

Look at the crusades and what happened to some of those that went out from the CC.. Wycliff,being just one.. I have read the History just lately with some of this.. Christ did not go out and hunt heretics. Christ did not burn people at the stake for preaching in opposition of Him.. But yet the cc and the Pope declared war on these people.. They burned bibles and people.. Now from what I understand the Pope is to be the vicar of Christ. Now why on earth would this person that is to be a representative of Christ do such things.. Jesus tells us that we will know His true followers by their fruit.. Jesus never once even reviled back when He was beaten and scourged.. This is one of my main concerns.. THE FRUIT.. Look at the fruit..

First Crusade 1095–1099
Second Crusade 1145–1149
Third Crusade 1189–1192
Fourth Crusade 1201–1204
Fifth Crusade 1217–1221
Sixth Crusade 1228–1229
Seventh Crusade 1248–1254
Eighth Crusade 1270
Ninth Crusade 1271–1272

John Wycliffe 1320-1384 I'm not really sure what your connection between the Crusades and Wycliffe is. So I'll just leave that alone.

[bible]John 2:14-16[/bible]

The Muslims, and heretics, who the crusades historically were against, were defiling not just the Temple, but trying to destroy Christianity.

[bible]Ephesians 6:12[/bible]

All throughout the Old Testament, God used war to defend His people. The crusades were to defend His Church. If wars were never fought to defend Christianity, you would be having this conversation with me, you would be declaring "Allahu Akbar!"

 

[IamAdopted]

Do you have a link, to where you got this...so the document can be viewed in it's full context.

If I remember correctly, Pope Innocent was dealing with the Albigensus and their heresies, so the quote from which this document was taken, might be dealing with the issues with the Albigensus.

http://forum.cygnus-study.com/archive/index.php/t-6773.html