Are we subject to the Old Covenant today?

[Valletta]

Amen Not cannibalism, of course.

Do you really think Jesus would tell us to commit cannibalism? Obviously Jesus is alive, not dead.

 

[LW97Nils]

Do you really think Jesus would tell us to commit cannibalism? Obviously Jesus is alive, not dead.

If you think that was my point, then you haven't read

 

[Doug Brents]

Actually, they have never been addressed by scripture.

Repeatedly and exhaustively, they have.

Luke 23: 56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment.

This occurrence was between His death and resurrection. It has no bearing in this discussion.

Jesus kept the Sabbath and all of the commandments John 15:10, Luke 4:16 and is our example to follow. 1 John 2:6

Jesus lived His whole life subject to the Law of Moses, but the Law ended with His death (although many still followed it until AD70 when the Temple was destroyed).

 

[Lulav]

The sabbath rest was a distinction given only to the nation of Israel and only for the duration of the Law of Moses. It did not exist before the Law, and was removed with the death of Christ.

All true except that the sabbath commandment is part of the Old Covenant and was not renewed in the New Covenant as has already been discussed, again ad nauseam.

" 8 For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath."​

Poor Jesus, I guess that means he no longer is Lord of the Sabbath.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Repeatedly and exhaustively, they have.

This occurrence was between His death and resurrection. It has no bearing in this discussion.

No this was after the death of Jesus when they came to His tomb. It absolutely has bearing on the discussion because you claim the Sabbath is not a commandment in God’s New Covenant promise, but scripture says otherwise. God wrote His laws in the New Covenant Hebrews 8:10 and the Sabbath is part of God’s law and God’s blessed and holy day Isaiah 58:13 Genesis 2:1-3 that Jesus said was made for man Mark 2:27 and no man can reverse Numbers 23:20

Jesus lived His whole life subject to the Law of Moses, but the Law ended with His death (although many still followed it until AD70 when the Temple was destroyed).

There is no scripture that says we are to follow Jesus who kept all the commandments of God, expect not follow Him on the Sabbath commandment. This is a teaching of man and Jesus condemns those who follow mans teaching over the commandments of God. Matthew 15:3-9.

I guess Jesus didn’t know the law on the Sabbath ended because He expected His people to be keeping it decades after the cross Matthew 24:20. Same with the disciples who observed every Sabbath decades after the cross Acts 18:44. God has a people and His people keep His commandments Revelation 14:12 so your argument against this is not really with me.

 

[Doug Brents]

" 8 For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath."​

Poor Jesus, I guess that means he no longer is Lord of the Sabbath.

Poor Lulav, I guess you underestimate God.

 

[Doug Brents]

No this was after the death of Jesus when they came to His tomb. It absolutely has bearing on the discussion because you claim the Sabbath is not a commandment in God’s New Covenant promise, but scripture says otherwise. God wrote His laws in the New Covenant Hebrews 8:10 and the Sabbath is part of God’s law and God’s blessed and holy day Isaiah 58:13 Genesis 2:1-3 that Jesus said was made for man Mark 2:27 and no man can reverse Numbers 23:20

All the passages you use to prove your case come from Old Testament sources. The sabbath certainly was part of the Old Covenant Law, but it is not still part of the New Covenant.

There is no scripture that says we are to follow Jesus who kept all the commandments of God, expect not follow Him on the Sabbath commandment. This is a teaching of man and Jesus condemns those who follow mans teaching over the commandments of God. Matthew 15:3-9.

There you are wrong. There are several passages that say we do not need to keep the sabbath in the New Covenant. They have been posted many times in this thread, and I invite you to go back and read them for yourself.

I guess Jesus didn’t know the law on the Sabbath ended because He expected His people to be keeping it decades after the cross Matthew 24:20. Same with the disciples who observed every Sabbath decades after the cross Acts 18:44. God has a people and His people keep His commandments Revelation 14:12 so your argument against this is not really with me.

As a has been said many times, and this is the last time I will rehash old material, the Apostles taught in the sabbath because that was when others were gathered to learn about God. They did not do it because it was still the Law, because they knew, as Paul says many times, that we are no longer subject to the Law of Moses. Matt 24:20 mentions the sabbath because the Jews continued to keep the tradition of sabbath even though it was no longer law. Rev 14:2”12 says nothing about keeping the sabbath. It only talks of keeping the commandments of God, and since the sabbath is not part of the New Covenant (under which you and I live) it has no bearing on the commandments we are obliged to keep to be loyal to God.

 

[Guojing]

They did not do it because it was still the Law, because they knew, as Paul says many times, that we are no longer subject to the Law of Moses.

When do you think they knew about this?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

. Matt 24:20 mentions the sabbath because the Jews continued to keep the tradition of sabbath even though it was no longer law.

We really should not add to the Words of Jesus Christ

Rev 14:2”12 says nothing about keeping the sabbath. It only talks of keeping the commandments of God, and since the sabbath is not part of the New Covenant (under which you and I live) it has no bearing on the commandments we are obliged to keep to be loyal to God.

You need to prove the Sabbath is not a commandment of God. God said it is, and told us to remember this commandment , so I am going to obey God over the teachings of man. The Sabbath is the only commandment that uses the word ”holy” and we are to be holy as God is holy. 1 Peter 1:16 and not to profane God’s holy things. Ezekiel 22:8. and God declared the Sabbath as His holy day in easy to understand words Genesis 2:1-3, Isaiah 58:13 and commanded us to keep His Sabbath holy Exodus 20:8 as we are made in His image to follow Him.

Anyway, you don‘t need to convince me on God’s holy Sabbath day and why we don’t have to keep it, I am not the one who Created the Sabbath and said it was made for man or the one man has to answer to one day very soon. I pray that we will all be ready when He comes as that day is coming soon.

 

[expos4ever]

God said the Sabbath would last forever

Where did God say this? More specifically, can you point to a single text about this matter where the allowable range of meanings of the Hebrew word rendered as "forever" or "eternal" excludes the possibility of a limited duration?

 

[Lulav]

Poor Lulav, I guess you underestimate God.

That's your response? So imperious about what the LORD Messiah said?

All true except that the sabbath commandment is part of the Old Covenant and was not renewed in the New Covenant as has already been discussed, again ad nauseam.

" 8 For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath."

Instead of condescending offhand ad-holmium remarks why don't you explain why Yeshua would call himself the 'Lord of the Sabbath' and then disannul it? Can you do that?

 

[Doug Brents]

When do you think they knew about this?

Certainly by the time of Paul’s writings since he writes so extensively on the subject. The rest of the Apostles appear to have known some of the changes from as early as Pentecost. But many of the Jews resisted changing because their traditions were so firmly established in their culture. But some things do not appear to have been revealed to them until later, like the ending of the dietary restrictions which was revealed when Peter was sent to Cornelius.

 

[expos4ever]

Instead of condescending offhand ad-holmium remarks why don't you explain why Yeshua would call himself the 'Lord of the Sabbath' and then disannul it? Can you do that?

If Jesus truly is Lord of the Sabbath, how could He not have the authority to decide to let it be retired? What does it mean conceptually to be "lord" over something and not have the ability to set it aside? In that case, one is "lord" in a constrained or limited sense.

And that is not really being a lord at all.

 

[Doug Brents]

" 8 For the Son of Man is lord of the Sabbath."

Instead of condescending offhand ad-holmium remarks why don't you explain why Yeshua would call himself the 'Lord of the Sabbath' and then disannul it? Can you do that?

Jesus is the Lord of David (Matt 22:44), yet David is no more. Why don't you explain why Jesus would call himself the David’s Lord and then allow him to die? Can you do that?

Many things of which Jesus is Lord come to an end. He was Lord of the Flood that took the lives of every man, woman, and child on earth except Noah and the seven in his family, yet the flood ended. It is no disrespect to God to say that something over which He is Lord came to an end.

 

[Lulav]

The sabbath rest was a distinction given only to the nation of Israel

For to uphold in the world who their God was since they were surrounded by heathens.

and only for the duration of the Law of Moses.

Then why are there many, both Jews and Gentiles who still keep it today?

It did not exist before the Law,

It has existed since the very first day Seven. It is the only day that the Creator sanctified, made HOLY< separate to HIM and that didn't change nor has it still day.

and was removed with the death of Christ.

Tell me how do you remove a Holy Day of the LORD that He made? How does man do that?

And if this 'did' happen at the death of Messiah then why did he lie to his disciples and give them instructions specifying that Holy day? It seems a non sequitur to me.

"But pray ye that your flight be not in winter, neither on the Sabbath day." ~ Matthew 24:20.

Jesus asked his disciples to pray that in the flight from the doomed city of Jerusalem they would not have to flee on the Sabbath day. This flight took place in 70 A.D. (40 years after the Cross).

40 years, after the death, and resurrection and ascension that which was prophesied by Yeshua happened. So was he a false prophet? a liar, a fearmonger? Because if you continue to say the Sabbath keeping was 'removed' with the death of Messiah then that is exactly what you are saying.

All the passages you use to prove your case come from Old Testament sources. The sabbath certainly was part of the Old Covenant Law, but it is not still part of the New Covenant.

No?, then if it ended at the cross and the disciples were told this by Messiah, then why did they wait?

"And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments and rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment." Luke 23:56

There you are wrong. There are several passages that say we do not need to keep the sabbath in the New Covenant. They have been posted many times in this thread, and I invite you to go back and read them for yourself.

I invite you to show where, Peter, John, Jude, or any of the other 12 Apostles specify that the Sabbath was done away with, any one of them. Just one verse from any of the above named men. And it must be specific to the Sabbath.

As a has been said many times, and this is the last time I will rehash old material, the Apostles taught in the sabbath because that was when others were gathered to learn about God. They did not do it because it was still the Law, because they knew, as Paul says many times, that we are no longer subject to the Law of Moses.

Please show how the Apostles besides Paul 'knew' this was true.

 

[Lulav]

If Jesus truly is Lord of the Sabbath, how could He not have the authority to decide to let it be retired?

Why would he? It was a commemoration of the day he finished creation. That is still very important to recognize and point to him, why can't you see that?

What does it mean conceptually to be "lord" over something and not have the ability to set it aside? In that case, one is "lord" in a constrained or limited sense.

And that is not really being a lord at all.

Even among the heathens it is well known that once they (the Kings) made a decree they could not go back on it.

Read the book of Ester, read about King Herod and the head of John the Baptizer.

Why would the King of the Universe turn over His Holy weekly Day to the one worshiped by the heathens as the day of the Sun? He didn't.

 

[Lulav]

Jesus is the Lord of David (Matt 22:44), yet David is no more. Why don't you explain why Jesus would call himself the David’s Lord and then allow him to die? Can you do that?

After you reword that because I can't make heads or tails from that word salad.
You just can't answer the question so you give another question, but that in itself answers it for me.

Many things of which Jesus is Lord come to an end. He was Lord of the Flood that took the lives of every man, woman, and child on earth except Noah and the seven in his family, yet the flood ended. It is no disrespect to God to say that something over which He is Lord came to an end.

Where does it say he was 'Lord of the Flood'? That's a new one, do tell.

 

[Doug Brents]

Then why are there many, both Jews and Gentiles who still keep it today?

I didn’t say anything about people keeping, or not keeping, the sabbath. I said it is not a commandment that we have to keep to be holy.

Tell me how do you remove a Holy Day of the LORD that He made? How does man do that?

Man cannot, but God did, as has been shown in Scripture many times.

And if this 'did' happen at the death of Messiah then why did he lie to his disciples and give them instructions specifying that Holy day? It seems a non sequitur to me.

"But pray ye that your flight be not in winter, neither on the Sabbath day." ~ Matthew 24:20.

Because, as is shown in the Pharisees’ religiosity, traditions can be more important to some people than their lives at times.

Jesus asked his disciples to pray that in the flight from the doomed city of Jerusalem they would not have to flee on the Sabbath day. This flight took place in 70 A.D. (40 years after the Cross).

40 years, after the death, and resurrection and ascension that which was prophesied by Yeshua happened. So was he a false prophet? a liar, a fearmonger? Because if you continue to say the Sabbath keeping was 'removed' with the death of Messiah then that is exactly what you are saying.

No?, then if it ended at the cross and the disciples were told this by Messiah, then why did they wait?

"And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments and rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment." Luke 23:56

They did not know that Jesus’ death ended the Law of Moses yet. The Apostles did not remember most of what Jesus had told them until He reminded them after His resurrection.

Further, your arguments are geared toward logical deduction, but we don’t need logical deduction; we have direct instruction that the sabbath is not still commanded, as has been posted previously.

I invite you to show where, Peter, John, Jude, or any of the other 12 Apostles specify that the Sabbath was done away with, any one of them. Just one verse from any of the above named men. And it must be specific to the Sabbath.

Please show how the Apostles besides Paul 'knew' this was true.

There is no need to do so. God is not divided. The Scriptures are all from a single source: God. It is not Paul writing, or Jude, or Peter (yes, they put pen to paper, but they are not the author), it is God. If Paul wrote God’s words, it is the same as Peter writing God’s words. Or do you deny Paul was an inspired Apostle of God?

Borrowing from another author: “First-century Jews understood that gentiles did not need to observe the Sabbath unless they became proselytes and came under the covenant made at Sinai. This is why the Sabbath was not a big controversy in the early church. No one thought that uncircumcised peoples needed to keep the Sabbath, because God had never commanded them to.

When the early church decided that gentiles did not need to become proselytes or to keep the law of Moses (Acts 15), the decision meant, in that culture, that gentiles did not need to obey the law of Moses concerning the Sabbath.

When Paul said that Jesus destroyed the laws that separated Jews and gentiles (Ephesians 2:15), the Sabbath would have been included, because the Sabbath was one of the main laws that separated Jews and gentiles. When the early church allowed people to live like gentiles (1 Corinthians 9:21; Galatians 2:14), they were saying, among other things, that it was not necessary to keep the Sabbath.”

 

[Doug Brents]

After you reword that because I can't make heads or tails from that word salad.
You just can't answer the question so you give another question, but that in itself answers it for me.

I can’t answer a question with a question? Jesus did that all the time, so I feel that it is perfectly reasonable to do so.

And there is no “word salad” there. I copied your question and changed the appropriate words to make it about David rather than the sabbath. So answer your own question about David instead of the sabbath.

Where does it say he was 'Lord of the Flood'? That's a new one, do tell.

Jesus is LORD! Period. He is Lord of all. He created and caused the Flood to be. There is nothing of which He is not Lord.

 

[expos4ever]

Why would he? It was a commemoration of the day he finished creation. That is still very important to recognize and point to him, why can't you see that?

Moving the goalposts. Let's recap. You posted this:

why don't you explain why Yeshua would call himself the 'Lord of the Sabbath' and then disannul it? Can you do that?

The essence of your question, at least as written, is that it seems contradictory to you that Jesus could be lord of the Sabbath and yet annul it. I simply pointed out there is no such contradiction - if you are lord of th Sabbath and do not have the power to retire it, your power over it is indeed limited. Hence you are not truly lord.

Now you artfully evade the problem with your first claim and now wish to assert that Jesus would never decide to "retire" an observance of His act of creation. Well, where is your argument? It would seem obvious that if, for example, Jesus is initiating a new act of creation (this is not an "if" by the way, it is Biblical fact), it makes perfectly good conceptual sense to retire the observance of the first act of creation.

Even among the heathens it is well known that once they (the Kings) made a decree they could not go back on it.

Evidence? And even if this is a standard practice, it in no way constrains Jesus from not following this practice.