Are we saved by grace, faith, works of faith, repentance, election, or combination of these?

Are we saved by grace, faith, works of faith, repentance, election, or combination of these?

  • I am a Universalist. All will eventually be saved by God's grace.

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No thanks. I believe I have already covered the issue here more than adequately and without personalizing it unnecessarily. That's the only valid way to approach the matter--on its own merits (or lack thereof).

The questions are not personal to you as an individual, but they are general questions that should be able to be answered by what the Anglican church believes. I believe not answering my questions only helps to make my argument stronger for my viewpoint. I could of course just do my own research on it, and find it out for myself. But you could make things easier for me (by simply answering). But that is your call (of course).

In any event, whether you answer or not, may God's good ways be upon you.
 
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FreeGrace2

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It's as I explained in the latter part. It is one thing to claim to have Faith and another to actually have Faith, the Faith that saves and is more than mere belief (even the demons have that, you remember).
No, James 2:19 isn't even about "saving faith". It's about the fact that demons believe that God is One. iow, they believe in the Trinity. But their belief doesn't come from trusting what God says. They believe that He is One because they all experienced it when they were created.

I'm just amazed at how often that verse is misused to teach that there is some sort of saving faith that is more than belief in what Jesus said about how to have eternal life. That is saving faith. Believng what Jesus said.

And I'm not even thinking about those who "claim faith", if that's your defense about now wanting to explain John 10:27,28.

I'm talking about those who actually do have faith, which are the ones that Jesus gives the gift of eternal life.

It's to THEM He says they shall never perish. And He gave no exceptions or condition on THEM in order to never perish.

So, again, how do you explain that?

IF a person has saving Faith, he necessarily WILL attempt to live as God would want.
All the way through 1 Corinthians, Paul affirmed the congregation's saved state. Yet, he pointed out the many ways they were NOT living as God would want. And none of this is even related to John 10:28, about not perishing.

He is compelled to do so.
Yes, the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin. But we know that the Holy Spirit can be resisted in Acts 7:51.

But don't think that is only what unbelievers can do. Note what commanded believers to NOT do:

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

1Thess 5:19 - Do not quench the Spirit.

But as was mentioned, Faith, genuine Faith, doesn't mean that we can never sin thereafter. That is the point on which a lot of people go wrong when talking about this issue.
OK, now, can you explain John 10:27,28, given your view about needing more than "mere faith"?
 
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BNR32FAN

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I believe we are saved by God's grace (through faith), and Sanctification and love is simply the motivation behind our submission to these two things (i.e. God's grace and Sanctification).

So yes, in a way I agree. But I believe loving God and serving Him manifests itself with entering the Sanctification Process (after a person is saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ (John 3:16), the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), and in seeking forgiveness with Jesus (Romans 10:13, 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9)). I see Sanctification as an act of God that we cooperate with synergistically when we surrender to God of our own free will to obey His Word (i.e. the New Covenant commands). I see Sanctification as God doing the good work within our lives to:

(a) Put away sin by God's power (Romans 8:13) (1 Thessalonians 4:3),
(b) To manifest the fruits of the Spirit or to walk after the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23, Galatians 5:16).
(c) For Him to do the good work through us (John 15:5, Philippians 2:13).​

We abide in the love of Jesus if we keep His commandments (John 15:10).
The Father and Jesus will make our home within us if we keep His commandments (John 14:23). The Holy Spirit is given to all those who obey Him (Acts of the Apostles 5:32). Jesus is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him (Hebrews 5:9). To obey is to trust in His grace (seeking His forgiveness) and in keeping His commandments. This is not keeping the whole of the 613 Old Testament Law of Moses or the ceremonial laws of the OT. We under a New Covenant with New Commands (that come from Jesus and His followers).

I do not believe we can be saved by obedience alone or by Sanctification until we are first saved by God's grace. After a person is saved by His grace through faith, at the heart, I believe "love" plays an important part in our motivation to want to obey the Lord and His commands. Obedience in being fruitful (works), living holy, putting away sin, not justifying sin shows love towards God and loyalty (pure faith) in Him.

Somebody can say they love God and their neighbor, but if they are not doing what the Bible says in how to love God and love their neighbor, then they are not truly loving in the way God desires for them to love. Somebody may think that loving God is hugging trees or in drawing heart symbols with God in the clouds. But yes, we do need love. This is only possible in having a new heart with new desires by being born again by God in being saved by His grace through faith in Christ (in the proper way).

Yes I agree and thank you for correcting me on the matter of sanctification. I completely agree that it is not our work but our cooperation with the guidance of the Holy Spirit that results in works. I failed to mention that very important piece of information. All glory to God.
 
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frumanchu

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My focus of attention here is Hamartiology and Soteriology (i.e. Sin and Salvation). Protestant Calvinists hold to "Perseverance of the Saints" (Which is pretty much the same as "Once Saved Always Saved" that many Non-Calvinistic Protestants believe in). They both hold to Sola Fide or Faith Alone. This is the predominant view of Soteriology here in America.

You have absolutely no factual basis to that last claim. There have in fact been NUMEROUS studies showing that the prevailing view in America is very much a works righteousness view that believes men are generally good and that "God helps those who help themselves" (many going so far as to believe that's actually a quote from Scripture). And the Reformed doctrine of perseverance is not even close to the typical antinomian OSAS view...literally the only thing they share in common is the outcome for the individual.

For example: I believe John MacArthur and other Calvinists (I have encountered and talk with) do not appear to be for true holy living entirely or in putting away grievous sin for good because they make for an allowance to sin and still be saved on some level.

And therein lies the error in your logic. It simply does not follow that because one believes that justification before God is solely on the basis of Christ's righteousness and not our own that therefore sin is irrelevant to the equation and obedience not worth pursuing. If you spent any time actually reading the writings of the Reformers and others following them you would know they emphasize constantly the need to pursue righteousness in our sanctification. Spend time with J.C. Ryle, John Bunyan, etc. and tell me they dismiss obedience as inconsequential.

The difference...and it's the most crucial of differences...is that that obedience is not the grounds for or basis of our justification before God. We are saved solely by the person and work of Christ. As I said before, you substitute the accidents for the essence and in so doing promote another gospel. I can certainly see why you would be so adamantly against the Reformers as the doctrine of justification was at the heart of their protest against Rome and remains so to this day. Rome believes just as you do that we must maintain our state of salvation after the point of faith by supplementing Christ's infused righteousness with our own because at judgement God will look at us and see if we are actually in a state of righteousness rather than reckoning us righteous through Christ. The outworking is the same as with your gospel: Christ's righteousness is not sufficient to save you...you must add yours to the equation, and if you mess up and get hit by a bus before you've had a chance to say the magic words and re-justify yourself then your position in Christ gains you precisely nothing. They even have the same distinction as the works righteousness crowd, distinguishing between the venial sins ("mistakes") that yeah are sins but don't cost you your salvation, and the mortal sins which undo Christ's work and snatch you from the Father's hand.

So I don't know whether you just haven't bothered to study the very Reformers you dismiss, or if you have and are just choosing to completely ignore volumes upon volumes of their works, but the "Protestantism" you dismiss is a malformed charicature.

What you failed to recognize is that thread is that certain posters were trying to teach that they can sin and still be saved on some level. One poster thought that a believer can touch and still be saved while doing so (implying that they do not have to confess and forsake that sin). This is what some Christians believe Christianity is about. Many believe Jesus paid for their future sin. So when they sin, it is paid for by Jesus. So they do not need to confess and forsake such sin as a part of salvation. Such Christians essentially say that all they need is a belief alone in Jesus, and they will imperfectly live a holy life and become more Christ like (Whatever that means).

It's called sanctification, and if you knew anything about Reformed doctrine you'd understand EXACTLY what it means. There's no room for sanctification in your gospel, just constant damnation and re-justification.
 
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Yes I agree and thank you for correcting me on the matter of sanctification. I completely agree that it is not our work but our cooperation with the guidance of the Holy Spirit that results in works. I failed to mention that very important piece of information. All glory to God.

It's all good, brother. It was not my intention to correct. I was only speaking about what I feel is true and good according to God's Word so as to inform what is close to my heart and life with my walk with the Lord.

I believe there are two things that are needed in the church today.

#1. God's grace through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8-9) (Romans 10:13) (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) (Which is not preached by the Church of Christ - that I have seen).

#2. Sanctification by the Spirit as the next step or stage of the salvation process (2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 8:13, John 5:24, James 2:24, Titus 1:16) (Which is not preached in majority of Bible alone type churches today as a part of salvation - i.e. Protestant churches).​

I believe Christians can fall into one extreme error or another. They can ignore either Grace, or they will either ignore Sanctification. We need both as a part of God's way of escape through Jesus Christ. All glory goes to Jesus (of course). For the 24 elders cast down their crowns before Christ.

I am so glad we can agree on the basics of salvation in our blessed Savior (Jesus) by His holy Word.

Anyways, blessings to you, brother;
May you always stay strong in Christ.
 
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You have absolutely no factual basis to that last claim. There have in fact been NUMEROUS studies showing that the prevailing view in America is very much a works righteousness view that believes men are generally good and that "God helps those who help themselves" (many going so far as to believe that's actually a quote from Scripture). And the Reformed doctrine of perseverance is not even close to the typical antinomian OSAS view...literally the only thing they share in common is the outcome for the individual.



And therein lies the error in your logic. It simply does not follow that because one believes that justification before God is solely on the basis of Christ's righteousness and not our own that therefore sin is irrelevant to the equation and obedience not worth pursuing. If you spent any time actually reading the writings of the Reformers and others following them you would know they emphasize constantly the need to pursue righteousness in our sanctification. Spend time with J.C. Ryle, John Bunyan, etc. and tell me they dismiss obedience as inconsequential.

The difference...and it's the most crucial of differences...is that that obedience is not the grounds for or basis of our justification before God. We are saved solely by the person and work of Christ. As I said before, you substitute the accidents for the essence and in so doing promote another gospel. I can certainly see why you would be so adamantly against the Reformers as the doctrine of justification was at the heart of their protest against Rome and remains so to this day. Rome believes just as you do that we must maintain our state of salvation after the point of faith by supplementing Christ's infused righteousness with our own because at judgement God will look at us and see if we are actually in a state of righteousness rather than reckoning us righteous through Christ. The outworking is the same as with your gospel: Christ's righteousness is not sufficient to save you...you must add yours to the equation, and if you mess up and get hit by a bus before you've had a chance to say the magic words and re-justify yourself then your position in Christ gains you precisely nothing. They even have the same distinction as the works righteousness crowd, distinguishing between the venial sins ("mistakes") that yeah are sins but don't cost you your salvation, and the mortal sins which undo Christ's work and snatch you from the Father's hand.

So I don't know whether you just haven't bothered to study the very Reformers you dismiss, or if you have and are just choosing to completely ignore volumes upon volumes of their works, but the "Protestantism" you dismiss is a malformed charicature.



It's called sanctification, and if you knew anything about Reformed doctrine you'd understand EXACTLY what it means. There's no room for sanctification in your gospel, just constant damnation and re-justification.

I don't have time at this moment to give a proper reply. I have to run out for a while. I may answer sometime tomorrow.

In any event, may God's love and peace be upon you (even if we disagree strongly on many things).
 
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Albion

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No, James 2:19 isn't even about "saving faith"...I'm just amazed at how often that verse is misused to teach that there is some sort of saving faith that is more than belief in what Jesus said about how to have eternal life. That is saving faith. Believng what Jesus said.
I disagree. Faith in the Biblical sense is not mere comprehension.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I disagree. Faith in the Biblical sense is not mere comprehension.
I didn't say it was. I said saving faith is accepting what Jesus said about Himself and how to have eternal life, which is by trusting in Him.

Even unbelievers can fully comprehend the gospel message. I've never even suggested that faith is mere comprehension.

Pisteuo is about trust. It's about who you are trusting your soul to for salvation.

Of course the gospel must be comprehended before one can believe or trust.

But comprehension isn't the ticket. Not by a long shot. Sorry you misunderstood my post.

Are you willing to explain John 10:28? The verse that states that reception of the gift of eternal life means that the recipient shall never perish.
 
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Albion

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I didn't say it was. I said saving faith is accepting what Jesus said about Himself and how to have eternal life, which is by trusting in Him.

Even unbelievers can fully comprehend the gospel message. I've never even suggested that faith is mere comprehension.

Okay, then you should have no problem with James 2:19.
 
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Bible Highlighter said:
My focus of attention here is Hamartiology and Soteriology (i.e. Sin and Salvation). Protestant Calvinists hold to "Perseverance of the Saints" (Which is pretty much the same as "Once Saved Always Saved" that many Non-Calvinistic Protestants believe in). They both hold to Sola Fide or Faith Alone. This is the predominant view of Soteriology here in America.
You have absolutely no factual basis to that last claim. There have in fact been NUMEROUS studies showing that the prevailing view in America is very much a works righteousness view that believes men are generally good and that "God helps those who help themselves" (many going so far as to believe that's actually a quote from Scripture).

When I speak of the most popular view of Christianity, I am referring to Protestantism here in America, and not worldwide. Catholicism is the largest Christian denomination worldwide, but this is not the case here in the States.

According to Google: (In the United States):

In 2016 [here in the United States], Christians represent 73.7% of the total population, 48.9% identifying as Protestants, 23.0% as Catholics.​

Source:
Google

According to Wikipedia: (Worldwide):

Protestantism is the second-largest form of Christianity with a total of 800 million to 1 billion adherents worldwide or about 37% of all Christians.
Source:
Protestantism - Wikipedia

My point is that Protestantism here in the States (being the most popular form of Christianity here in the U.S.) believes in "Justification by Faith Alone (Sola Fide)" rather than also by good works. For, according to Wikipedia, it states:

It [Protestantism] originated with the 16th century Reformation, a movement against what its followers perceived to be errors in the Catholic Church. Protestants reject the Roman Catholic doctrine of papal supremacy and sacraments, but disagree among themselves regarding the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist. They emphasize the priesthood of all believers, justification by faith alone (sola fide) rather than also by good works,​

Source:
Protestantism - Wikipedia

Justification by Faith Alone (Sola Fide) is a doctrine that asserts that a person is forgiven of their transgressions of the law of God rather than on the basis of good works which they have done.

Justificatio sola fide (or simply sola fide), meaning justification by faith alone, is a Christian theological doctrine commonly held to distinguish many Protestant denominations from the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches.

The doctrine of sola fide asserts God's pardon for guilty sinners is granted to and received through faith alone, excluding all "works" (good deeds).

The standalone sola fide justification of souls is a tenet of most Lutheran and Reformed sects.

These Protestants exclude all human works (except the works of Jesus Christ, which form the basis of justification) from the legal verdict (or pardon) of justification.

Source:
Sola fide - Wikipedia

You said:
And the Reformed doctrine of perseverance is not even close to the typical antinomian OSAS view...literally the only thing they share in common is the outcome for the individual.

What separates the Antinomian view from what you think is the correct view? Is it not holy living or putting away sin, or not justifying sin or allowing God to do the good works through you? Is that not a form of works based righteousness or a small form of works based salvation? Truly faith alone or a belief alone for salvation in Christ's finished work should be sufficient, right?

Any action taken towards holy living, whether one is trying to not sin, or whether one is trying to do a good work, or to act in a way that is holy in behavior is a form of works based salvation or works based righteousness (According to Sola Fide or Faith Alone). Even if God were to force you to do these things on some level (at some point in your life), you had to actively work with your conscious mind to do these things. You were not automatically and perfectly obeying God the moment you believed. It takes effort to do good. You can call that effort as God working in your life alone, but the fact that you have to agree with God shows that you have free will to decide to do good or evil as a believer. If this was not the case, then you would be perfectly obeying God in everything. For God is holy, and His works are perfect. The fact that you battle in doing good is proof in the pudding that GOD is not forcing you to be a righteous living puppet. Do you feel like you are being dragged beyond your free will to preach the gospel, to help the poor, to love your enemies, etc.? Surely not. You have to actively work at putting these things in God's Word into your heart and life.

If you are against Antinomianism, this means you are against living unrighteously on some level. But again, if God were to subtly push you to do good and live holy over time beyond your own battle with the flesh as proof that you have been zapped against your destructive free will by God to be forever saved, meaning: You were saved by being "Elected or Chosen by God" (Election according to Calvinism and not Election according to the Bible), then you do hold to the view that there needs to be some kind of works or holiness on some level as a part of the salvation equation. Many Christians essentially say, "We are not saved by works, but we are saved by faith alone, but a Christian who is saved will live holy and do good works as a result of being saved."

Even if works and or holiness in and of themselves did not save, if they are an after effect (or ripple effect) or having been saved, then they are a part of salvation because they show the proof in the pudding or the evidence of one having been saved. If works do not save or holiness does not save in any way whatsoever, then they should never be needed ever at any point in a Christian's life. Faith Alone (Sola Fide) should be sufficient to save despite how one lives, and despite what they do. Problem is that most believe in Sola Fide and think that holy living and good works will always be the result; Therefore, they are holding to a contradiction. For if faith alone (no holy living of works of any kind do not save), then they should not be needed as a part of the salvation equation. It's not faith alone if works and or holy living is always the result of true saving faith.

You said:
And therein lies the error in your logic. It simply does not follow that because one believes that justification before God is solely on the basis of Christ's righteousness and not our own that therefore sin is irrelevant to the equation and obedience not worth pursuing. If you spent any time actually reading the writings of the Reformers and others following them you would know they emphasize constantly the need to pursue righteousness in our sanctification. Spend time with J.C. Ryle, John Bunyan, etc. and tell me they dismiss obedience as inconsequential.

J.C. Ryle, and John Bunyan are early day Calvinists or Puritans. They are not like the Calvinists of today. While there were a few early day Calvinists who emphasized holy living, this is not the case today. Also, the majority (not all) Puritans were into OT capital punishment (Hence the Salem witch trials, and putting to death those who fornicated, etc.).

Anyways, so what is the problem with J.C. Ryle and John Bunyan?

They teach Perseverance of the Saints or that no believer can fall away.
This is contrary to Scripture.

Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3​

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)​

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19-20)​

What about Paul who is the great grace teacher? Well, Paul says,

  1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
  2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
  3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
  4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
  5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
  6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
  7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
  8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
  9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
  10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

The problem in denying the Bible's clear teaching that believers can potentially fall away from the faith (even temporarily) is that it can lead to either:

(a) Turning God's grace into a license into immorality on some level (Which can be the result of Modern Day Calvinism or Protestant thinking on Sin and Salvation), or:
(b) In can make one doubt God's grace was effective to save beforehand when they first came to God. For if a believer falls into a prodigal life, they may doubt their initial salvation in coming to the Lord for the first time, and they may feel like they cannot come back to God again.
Anyways, I will try and reply to the rest of what you have written later.

May God's good ways be upon you today.
 
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To all:

The predominant view of Salvation here in America is Sola Fide or Faith Alone (i.e. which comes from Protestantism). Yet, Jesus said narrow is the way that leads unto life and FEW be there that find it. We cannot follow the large crowd, but we have to follow the narrow way that the Bible teaches. This narrow is both God's grace, and Sanctification. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).
 
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The difference...and it's the most crucial of differences...is that that obedience is not the grounds for or basis of our justification before God.

Doesn't sound like Scripture to me.

Hebrews 5:9 says,
"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Jesus is the author of eternal salvation unto all them who OBEY Him.
Yet, you say we are not to obey as a part of eternal salvation.
I believe my Bible and not you.

As for the word "justified."

James 2:24 says,
"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone."

The only place where the words "faith alone" appears in the Bible is a case made to show how we are not "justified" by faith alone but we are "justified by works," too.

In other words, we need both God's grace and Sanctification as a part of salvation.

We are saved solely by the person and work of Christ.

No were not. This is not true.

1 John 1:7 says,

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

1 John 1:7 says you have to "walk in the light" and "the blood of Jesus Christ... cleanses us from all sin."

Walking in the light is loving your brother (See: 1 John 2:9-11). For the person who does not love his brother is not of God (See: 1 John 3:10).

You said:
As I said before, you substitute the accidents for the essence and in so doing promote another gospel.
I can certainly see why you would be so adamantly against the Reformers as the doctrine of justification was at the heart of their protest against Rome and remains so to this day. Rome believes just as you do that we must maintain our state of salvation after the point of faith by supplementing Christ's infused righteousness with our own because at judgement God will look at us and see if we are actually in a state of righteousness rather than reckoning us righteous through Christ. The outworking is the same as with your gospel: Christ's righteousness is not sufficient to save you...you must add yours to the equation, and if you mess up and get hit by a bus before you've had a chance to say the magic words and re-justify yourself then your position in Christ gains you precisely nothing. They even have the same distinction as the works righteousness crowd, distinguishing between the venial sins ("mistakes") that yeah are sins but don't cost you your salvation, and the mortal sins which undo Christ's work and snatch you from the Father's hand.

So I don't know whether you just haven't bothered to study the very Reformers you dismiss, or if you have and are just choosing to completely ignore volumes upon volumes of their works, but the "Protestantism" you dismiss is a malformed charicature.



It's called sanctification, and if you knew anything about Reformed doctrine you'd understand EXACTLY what it means. There's no room for sanctification in your gospel, just constant damnation and re-justification.

You believe that a Christian does not become unsaved when they sin. So this means that a Christian can sin and still be saved on some level. If so, then what of all that talk of holy living before? Adam and Eve just sinned one time that created the Fall of all of mankind. Ananias and Sapphira were killed instantly for having each lied to the Spirit. One sin can lead to spiritual death. We learn in the Parable of the Prodigal Son that when the son came home to the father and sought forgiveness with him, his father said that his son was "dead" and he is "alive again." The parable here is speaking in spiritual terms. The son was "dead spiritually" while spending his inheritance on prostitutes, but when he came back home to the father and sought forgiveness over what he did, he was made "alive again spiritually." He became saved again. This same truth is taught in James 5:19-20.

As for your mention of the gospel:
Well, there are two aspects to the gospel.

#1. There is a believing aspect of the gospel for salvation, and:
#2. There is an obedience aspect of the gospel for salvation.

What is obedience to the gospel?

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 says, "When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

Please take note that this is essential to one's salvation. It says those who do not obey the gospel will be punished with everlasting destruction.

I believe the gospel is defined for us in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. It is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. In context, 1 Corinthians 15 is talking about "believing the gospel" (See 1 Corinthians 15:11).

But there is another kind of thing we must do besides believe the gospel. It is called "obeying the gospel."

So again, what is obeying the gospel?

I believe it is defined for us in Scripture:

Obeying the Death of Jesus Christ:

Crucify the affections and lusts:
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

Take up your cross (Die to self):
"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).
I see the "taking up your cross" as this: "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." (Romans 12:1-2).

We should be dead to grievous sin's effects and we should no longer live in any kind of grievous sin anymore:
1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? " (Romans 6:1-2).

6 "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin." (Romans 6:6-7).

Obeying the Resurrection of Jesus Christ:

"...that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life" (Romans 6:4).

"For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:" (Romans 6:5).


Side Note:

I believe the "death/burial" is also symbolic of Spirit baptism as per Romans 6:3-4. Granted, in this passage it sounds like water baptism and indeed it is referring to water baptism. But that is how they accepted the Lord back then and receive Spirit baptism. Paul said elswhere that he came not to baptize. So obviously we NEED to be baptized as per obeying the death aspect part of the gospel. We need to crucify the affections and lusts. This can happen when a person accepts Jesus as their Savior and they believe in His death and resurrection for salvation. It can happen when a believer seeks forgiveness of their sins with the Lord Jesus Christ and they crucify the affections and lusts in their life by the power of the Lord.

For if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).
 
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Albion

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You believe that a Christian does not become unsaved when they sin. So this means that a Christian can sin and still be saved on some level.

That is correct. You will take the opposite view, apparently, which is possible only if we believe that a person who has received the gift of Faith never sins again--which is not a concept supported by the Bible.

St. Paul speaks to this from his own life. See Romans 7:21–23.

See also 1 John 1:8
 
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That is correct. You will take the opposite view, apparently, which is possible only if we believe that a person who has received the gift of Faith never sins again--which is not a concept supported by the Bible.

Absolutely not true. Here is...

The Bible’s teaching that serious sin is separation from GOD,

"But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

"Now we know that God hears not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears." (John 9:31).

[God said to Adam,]
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

[Eve said to the serpent,]
"But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. (Genesis 3:3).

And the serpent said unto the woman,
"Ye shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

"...she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked..." (Genesis 3:6-7).

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." (Romans 5:12).

"For the wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23).

“...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.”
(Matthew 5:22).

28 “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:28-30).

“But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he that doeth it destroyeth his own soul.” (Proverbs 6:32).

“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21)

Important Note: If you were to look at 1 Thessalonians 4:3 you would learn that the will of God (i.e. the Father) is to be holy or it is our sanctification; And Hebrews 12:14 says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

“22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’” (Matthew 7:22-23 ESV).

“26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.”
(Matthew 7:26-27).

“15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” (Matthew 7:15-20).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

"he that commits sin is of the devil." (1 John 3:8).

"everyone who does evil hates the light." (John 3:20).

"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts of the Apostles 8:22).

6 "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth.
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

"He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." (1 John 2:9).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

41 "The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear." (Matthew 13:41-43 ESV).

“For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.” (Matthew 12:37).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

3 "If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing,..." (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble."
(James 4:6).

21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:21-22).

16 "There is a sin unto death..."
17 "...and there is a sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16-17).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

19 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

5 "Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affe
ction, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them." (Colossians 3:5-7).

5 “...God;
6 ...will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law” (Romans 2:5-12).

“But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.” (Ezekiel 18:24).

9 “Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. “ (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).

"And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 25:30).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).
 
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St. Paul speaks to this from his own life. See Romans 7:21–23.

You call him saint Paul. This is a contradiction in terms. You cannot be a sinning saint. That does not compute.

Romans 7:14-24 is Paul speaking from his perspective as a Pharisee when he was in the Pharisee religion that made salvation all about the Law Alone and no grace in the Messiah. I will make a point to prove this biblically in my next upcoming posts.

You said:
See also 1 John 1:8

1 John 1:8 is exposing a gnostic belief. In 1 John 1:8, and 1 John 1:10, John is a warning the brethren against this gnostic type thinking in 1 John 1:8, and 1 John 1:10. He was warning against those gnostics who were trying to seduce them (1 John 2:26).

1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10 are both basically saying that sin is an illusion or non-existent when a person sins. It is a denial of sin's existence in some way.

1 John 1:8 is a denial of sin's existence in the present tense.
1 John 1:10 is a denial of sin's existence in the past tense.

Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion, so 1 John 1:8 and 1 John 1:10 would be a warning against them to not think this way.

In other words, 1 John 1:8 says, "if we say we have no sin [when we do sin], we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

This has to be the interpretative understanding on this verse because 1 John 2:1 tells us to "sin not" and 1 John 2:4 says that the person who says they know the Lord and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him.
 
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Yes, we agree that sin is wrong. Also, that the Bible says as much. What you have missed is that a determination not to live by sin is different from sometimes falling to temptation but then repenting.

You missed the point of the list. Carefully look back at those verses and you will see that they were not secure in their salvation if folks sin.
 
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Albion

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You call him saint Paul. This is a contradiction in terms. You cannot be a sinning saint. That does not compute.
Not with you, apparently.

But this is the issue we have been looking at. To be saved does not mean that you are made automatically and eternally sinless; it means that you have sworn off indifference to sin. But so long as we are mortal, we are vulnerable to temptation.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Are we saved by grace, faith, works of faith, repentance, election, or combination of these?

(Please vote in the poll).
For further clarification, (hopefully),

when people were saved from the Titanic sinking,
were they saved by the clothes they had on?
were they saved by the language they spoke ?
were they saved by having relatives in England ?
were they saved by knowing 2 + 2 = 4 ?

Or were all those things part of their life, but not what saved them ?

Note the difference in those who drowned/died, vs those who were saved from the sinking and lived.
 
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