Are we mixed with giants or angels ?

[Radrook]

I find that people who hear or read things in the bible, that seem beyond our present norm, tend to write them off as metaphor, allegorical or exaggeration.

Personally, I have not issues with the description of these giants being fact.

Noah chose wives for his sons. These women were not of "perfect in their generations".

This is where the second, smaller, wave of giants came from. The line of Canaan...
Which is the line of the Canaanites.

Please note that I am not dismissing nor glibly writing off or glibly dismissing biblical texts as you describe. Neither am I challenging the existence of these giants as mere myth as you suggest.

I am simply saying that sending a global flood for the purpose of giving mankind a fresh start without the type of intervention that existed prior to the flood and then placing the perpetrators in a prison as described in Jude, doesn't harmonize with the report that those fearful faithless spies brought back.

Neither does your idea that God permitted Nephilim contaminated women as wives for Noah's sons make any scriptural sense within the context of the purpose for the Flood.

 

[Radrook]

My view is that it was the angels that were restrained. Not spirits.

Please note that angels are described as spirits.

Hebrews 1:7 ►
New International Version
In speaking of the angels he says, "He makes his angels spirits, and his servants flames of fire."

Hebrews 1:14 (NET)
1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Angels, God’s Ministering Spirits

 

[trackstacks]

I'm probably mixed with a donkey or a tasmanian devil

 

[Watchman Irvin]

With all respect due, my theology seems to differ from that of Catholicism. But there are scholars that have different views than the Sethiate theory.

 

[corinth77777]

The line of Cain was wiped out in the flood, and yet there are giants after the flood, as we see in numbers. So it couldn't be the line of cain that is the cause. One could say it was their wickedness but that doesn't produce giants, there are wicked people today that have normal children.

The King James version uses the anti messianic Masoretic text written in 700 AD for it's translation of Deuteronomy 32:8. The ESV uses the LLX which predates the Masoretic by a thousand years. God does not want us to shelter behind a singular translation. Paul wants us to be Bereans, not King James' Christians. Biblical and historical study should inform our understanding of a text, not a singular translation. You say I must use the KJV, well the KJV is going to be derived from either the LLX (which I and the ESV am using), the Peshitta, or the Masoretic text so which source material must I adhere too and why?

The next grouping of verses should prove exegetically that the sons of God were bad angels. It can't prove against not wanting to be convinced, but it is exegetically accurate and in some cases is an explicit reference to Genesis 6.

Psalm 82 is the condemnation of the those angels.
"God[Elohim] standeth in the congregation of the mighty [actual Hebrew word in the source text is El which means god]; he judgeth among the gods [Elohim]." [Proof of my comments] Psalm 82 continues on to condemn those gods.

Or in Jude
"6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Jude goes on to literally quote the Book of Enoch and refer to that quote as prophecy.

Or in 2 Peter 4 using the same formulation as Jude.
"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;"

I'll link Job 38 again in the KJV.
"4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? "

Job 38:7 even in the KJV it unambiguously links the term "Sons of God" to angels. It is not exegetically possible to place the patriarchs in existence at the formation of the world. The angels however were in existence at that time.

First it all depends what Giants mean....
And if those that scripture says are giants were around before the sons of God went into the daughters of men...it still doesn't state the offspring to be Giants....So that should stop the 1st argument in your first paragraph.

I said to prove it to me..KJV must be used..because in my studies Like the Breans it has been the most reliable to me. They searched the scriptures to see if what was told or happening was true....I doubt they have as many translations as we have today.

Next, There is no where in scripture where it statescangels can procreate.

Also, in Psalms the verse you left...the term was used by Jesus as people the word comes through..."ye are gods" Psalms is a prophetic book...
Job is also a prophetic book.
I believe there are some passages that are mistranslated based on other mistranslations.....

I will read further into the scriptures you left...but based on face value you haven't proved a thing...and not because my heart is hard on the subject...rather Because I read the Bible and genealogy....is the key subject.

 

[Sanoy]

First it all depends what Giants mean....
And if those that scripture says are giants were around before the sons of God went into the daughters of men...it still doesn't state the offspring to be Giants....So that should stop the 1st argument in your first paragraph.

I said to prove it to me..KJV must be used..because in my studies Like the Breans it has been the most reliable to me. They searched the scriptures to see if what was told or happening was true....I doubt they have as many translations as we have today.

Next, There is no where in scripture where it statescangels can procreate.

Also, in Psalms the verse you left...the term was used by Jesus as people the word comes through..."ye are gods" Psalms is a prophetic book...
Job is also a prophetic book.
I believe there are some passages that are mistranslated based on other mistranslations.....

I will read further into the scriptures you left...but based on face value you haven't proved a thing...and not because my heart is hard on the subject...rather Because I read the Bible and genealogy....is the key subject.

On the word Giants.
Nephilim is an Aramaic word that means Giants. It's the same word used in Aramaic for Orion. It is the way the Septuagint translators, 1000 years before the masoretic text used it. It is what the Isrealites saw back in numbers where they were described as grasshoppers, the same size reference used for God over the earth in Isaiah 40:22.

On translations.
In my last reply I quoted everything from the KJV. ESV represent modern biblical scholarship, centuries of historical discoveries as well as a more primary usage of the LLX. If you doubt any translation read it in the interlinear.

On the procreation act of the watchers/sons of God.
Scripture does not say that they can not procreate but Genesis 6:4 makes it clear when it says "when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them" Jude also further clarifies what they did in verses 6-7.

"6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh"

We know that Jude is a big fan of the Book of Enoch so we know exactly what Jude is thinking here without any doubts.

On Job.
Job is considered "Wisdom Literature", not prophecy. That verse is looking back not forward. What matters is how the word is used, and it places the Sons of God before the creation of Humans thereby eliminating any correlation to a group of humans.

On Psalm 82 and it's contrast to John 10:36.
If you place Jesus's usage of "ye are all Gods" to mean humans you cause Jesus to down play his own title. It's as if to say, "yeah I call myself a God and so are you...see I'm just like you no problem here, nothing special about me." But lets look at who Jesus calls "gods" in reference to Psalm 82...

"If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"

He doesn't say everyone is a God here, but those whom the word of God came. And they arrest him for it. Why? If scripture makes everyone out to be a God so plainly then why would they try and arrest him for claiming the same right? He then follows to say look, if you don't believe me when I say I'm the son of God, believe my works. Why would he doubt their capacity to believe he is the son of God if every Joe out there is also a god?

The phrase "unto whom the word of God came" is to say the message of Psalm 82. Psalm 82 is the word of God spoken to the congregation of the Elohim condemning them to die like men. So Jesus is essentially saying "Look, if God calls even these condemned ones Elohim, then why do you call it blasphemy that I, whom the father sanctified and sent into the world, am the son of God?" That is the message of John 10:36. "unto whom the word of God came" is describing the subject which is "them". Them is described in Psalm 82 as the Congregation of the Elohim.

So we either have Jesus meaning...
"Look, if God calls even these condemned ones Elohim, then why do you call it blasphemy that I, whom the father sanctified and sent into the world, am the son of God?"
or
"yeah I call myself a God and so are you...see I'm just like you, no problem here, nothing special about me."

I know that the Nephilim is a hard story to bare, but I strongly believe that the story is not over yet. I am glad that it was forgotten when it wasn't needed, but I think now is the time for Christians to start recalling this material. Things are happening very rapidly and if Christians don't know this material in depth it will go on invisibly to them.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Could we be mixed with giants and angels? And when the scales fall will we see our true selves ?

Show me some angel or giant DNA, then we can have a discussion.

 

[corinth77777]

On the word Giants.
Nephilim is an Aramaic word that means Giants. It's the same word used in Aramaic for Orion. It is the way the Septuagint translators, 1000 years before the masoretic text used it. It is what the Isrealites saw back in numbers where they were described as grasshoppers, the same size reference used for God over the earth in Isaiah 40:22.

On translations.
In my last reply I quoted everything from the KJV. ESV represent modern biblical scholarship, centuries of historical discoveries as well as a more primary usage of the LLX. If you doubt any translation read it in the interlinear.

On the procreation act of the watchers/sons of God.
Scripture does not say that they can not procreate but Genesis 6:4 makes it clear when it says "when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them" Jude also further clarifies what they did in verses 6-7.


On Job.
Job is considered "Wisdom Literature", not prophecy. That verse is looking back not forward. What matters is how the word is used, and it places the Sons of God before the creation of Humans.

On Psalm 82 and it's contrast to John 10:36.
If you place Jesus's usage of "ye are all Gods" to mean humans you cause Jesus to down play his own title. It's as if to say, "yeah I call myself a God and so are you...see I'm just like you no problem here, nothing special about me." But lets look at who Jesus calls "gods" in reference to Psalm 82...

He doesn't say everyone is a God here, but those whom the word of God came. And they arrest him for it. Why? If scripture makes everyone out to be a God so plainly then why would they try and arrest him for claiming the same right? He then follows to say look, if you don't believe me when I say I'm the son of God, believe my works. Why would he doubt their capacity to believe he is the son of God if every Joe out there is also a god?

The phrase "unto whom the word of God came" is to say the message of Psalm 82. Psalm 82 is the word of God spoken to the congregation of the Elohim condemning them to die like men. So Jesus is essentially saying "Look, if God calls even these condemned ones Elohim, then why do you call it blasphemy that I, whom the father sanctified and sent into the world, am the son of God?" That is the message of John 10:36. "unto whom the word of God came" is describing the subject which is "them". Them is described in Psalm 82 as the Congregation of the Elohim.

So we either have Jesus meaning...
"Look, if God calls even these condemn ones Elohim, then why do you call it blasphemy that I, whom the father sanctified and sent into the world, am the son of God?"
or
"yeah I call myself a God and so are you...see I'm just like you, no problem here, nothing special about me."

Giant can mean mighty or Big headed or as referring to kings and such. Now why did the Israelites see themselves that way? Could it also be that fear make things seem more than things are? If there is one word used for giant..which carry different meanings then translation could be an issue at times. Of course there must be more meanings to the one word that you have not shared for it wouldn't show more than one def for it.
The definition could also be defined in the text...Mighty Men of old, renown. This gives the sense that the offspring are powerful and are therefore "giants" because of their status.

As we see the passage described why He destroyed Men. And calls them man...It never states angels intermingled or mentions their offspring as half-breeds.

It is versed by Jesus that during the resurrection marriage wouldn't carry any weight because they would be Like angels who are not given in marriage.

The little "g" in gods....is just what it is a little "g"
and as Jesus said it. They were called gods because the word of God came through them.
I'm still looking at the passages, Yet no one can say without assuming that the sons of God were Angels....Yet we know by scripture that all who are "led by the spirit are sons of God" We also know that the line Jesus would come through was not to be defiled.
Even today we are not to be yoked with nonbelievers. Who a person becomes one with they may act like.
Also please share from the passage in Job...that when the angels left...where scripture says they went, using the Bible.
Don't forget Psalms is prophetic....The Judges are called gods because they stand in God's place. Mcgee

 

[Sanoy]

Giant can mean mighty or Big headed or as referring to kings and such. Now why did the Israelites see themselves that way? Could it also be that fear make things seem more than things are? If there is one word used for giant..which carry different meanings then translation could be an issue at times. Of course there must be more meanings to the one word that you have not shared for it wouldn't show more than one def for it.
The definition could also be defined in the text...Mighty Men of old, renown. This gives the sense that the offspring are powerful and are therefore "giants" because of their status.

As we see the passage described why He destroyed Men. And calls them man...It never states angels intermingled or mentions their offspring as half-breeds.

It is versed by Jesus that during the resurrection marriage wouldn't carry any weight because they would be Like angels who are not given in marriage.

The little "g" in gods....is just what it is a little "g"
and as Jesus said it. They were called gods because the word of God came through them.
I'm still looking at the passages, Yet no one can say without assuming that the sons of God were Angels....Yet we know by scripture that all who are "led by the spirit are sons of God" We also know that the line Jesus would come through was not to be defiled.
Even today we are not to be yoked with nonbelievers. Who a person becomes one with they may act like.
Also please share from the passage in Job...that when the angels left...where scripture says they went, using the Bible.

On the meaning of the word.
In Aramaic Giant means Giant. It's why the constellation Orion is Nephila in Aramaic, and why the legends of the Americas have the origin of giants coming from the belt of Orion. The word is either Aramaic or not and we have to take it for what it means in it's own language. It's also what the Septuagint, our earliest source, used. Those 70(2) writers were the closest to the understanding of the meaning. What we have now floating around the internet comes the desire to wipe the nephilim from the Bible, not to understand what the authors meant.

On men of renown.
The giants were also the "Men of renown". Gilgamesh 2/3 god was one. The Titanomachy of Greece describes another group. Ninurta another. The purpose of mentioning that they were men of renown is to reference them with the stories found throughout the ANE. Those former men of renown became demons upon death and were a part of the Rephaim This is what Moses refers to after the flood in Deuteronomy 32:16-17

16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with abominations provoked they him to anger.
17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers feared not.

ANE scholars make the same connection, such as Amar Annus describes in his Journal on Academia.edu. Are There Greek Rephaim? On the Etymology of Greek Meropes and Titanes (UF 31, 1999)

Why they are called men.
They are called men because they are not angels, and they appear as men, rule like men, and die like men, and are identical to men in every way except size and strength. Angels abide apart from man.

On the little g.
The little g is a translational distinction for convenience. The same word used for Yahweh is used for them, that is Elohim. It is seen plainly in an interlinear.

On All who are led by the spirit are sons of God
This statement is not to bring the Sons of God down to mortals, but to bring mortals into the status of the sons of God. That congregation of the Elohim in Psalm 82, we are to judge and replace that congregation as a new congregation of the Sons of God.

On Job?
You want me to comment on where the angels left. I can only assume you are referring to Job 1 and 2. Job 1 and 2 Describe a divine council scene just like Psalm 82 and 2 Chronicles 18:18-20. The only reference I see is where Satan came from, not where the angels left from. I do not understand the point you are trying to make. But whatever that point may be it cannot ignore Job 38.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Show me the remains of this race of giants? Maybe we can extract some DNA from their teeth to get a genetic work-up on them.

 

[corinth77777]

On the meaning of the word.
In Aramaic Giant means Giant. It's why the constellation Orion is Nephila in Aramaic, and why the legends of the Americas have the origin of giants coming from the belt of Orion. The word is either Aramaic or not and we have to take it for what it means in it's own language. It's also what the Septuagint, our earliest source, used. Those 70(2) writers were the closest to the understanding of the meaning. What we have now floating around the internet comes the desire to wipe the nephilim from the Bible, not to understand what the authors meant.

On men of renown.
The giants were also the "Men of renown". Gilgamesh 2/3 god was one. The Titanomachy of Greece describes another group. Ninurta another. The purpose of mentioning that they were men of renown is to reference them with the stories found throughout the ANE. Those former men of renown became demons upon death and were a part of the Rephaim This is what Moses refers to after the flood in Deuteronomy 32:16-17
ANE scholars make the same connection, such as Amar Annus describes in his Journal on Academia.edu. Are There Greek Rephaim? On the Etymology of Greek Meropes and Titanes (UF 31, 1999)

Why they are called men.
They are called men because they are not angels, and they appear as men, rule like men, and die like men, and are identical to men in every way except size and strength. Angels abide apart from man.

On the little g.
The little g is a translational distinction for convenience. The same word used for Yahweh is used for them, that is Elohim. It is seen plainly in an interlinear.

On All who are led by the spirit are sons of God
This statement is not to bring the Sons of God down to mortals, but to bring mortals into the status of the sons of God. That congregation of the Elohim in Psalm 82, we are to judge and replace that congregation as a new congregation of the Sons of God.

On Job?
You want me to comment on where the angels left. I can only assume you are referring to Job 1 and 2. Job 1 and 2 Describe a divine council scene just like Psalm 82 and 2 Chronicles 18:18-20. The only reference I see is where Satan came from not where the angels left from. I do not understand the point you are trying to make. But whatever that point may be it cannot ignore Job 38.

I'll read the above a little later but to Sum of this argument Turn to Genesis 6:12 and 13
Just as Cain was told by God that when he didn't do right sin lied at the door...so also
Man corrupted his own way. It doesn't say angels corrupted mankind....

 

[Sanoy]

Show me the remains of this race of giants? Maybe we can extract some DNA from their teeth to get a genetic work-up on them.

Goliath is only 4 inches taller than me (I'm 6,5). They are relative giants. They don't have "angel DNA". Angels appear as men to procreate with them. The height either comes from the height of the male body or from Genomic imprinting like what we find in the Liger which becomes much larger than either parents. The angelic part is imprinted in their spirit. They do not have fully human spirits but become demons when they die as Enoch relates.

 

[corinth77777]

On the meaning of the word.
In Aramaic Giant means Giant. It's why the constellation Orion is Nephila in Aramaic, and why the legends of the Americas have the origin of giants coming from the belt of Orion. The word is either Aramaic or not and we have to take it for what it means in it's own language. It's also what the Septuagint, our earliest source, used. Those 70(2) writers were the closest to the understanding of the meaning. What we have now floating around the internet comes the desire to wipe the nephilim from the Bible, not to understand what the authors meant.

On men of renown.
The giants were also the "Men of renown". Gilgamesh 2/3 god was one. The Titanomachy of Greece describes another group. Ninurta another. The purpose of mentioning that they were men of renown is to reference them with the stories found throughout the ANE. Those former men of renown became demons upon death and were a part of the Rephaim This is what Moses refers to after the flood in Deuteronomy 32:16-17
ANE scholars make the same connection, such as Amar Annus describes in his Journal on Academia.edu. Are There Greek Rephaim? On the Etymology of Greek Meropes and Titanes (UF 31, 1999)

Why they are called men.
They are called men because they are not angels, and they appear as men, rule like men, and die like men, and are identical to men in every way except size and strength. Angels abide apart from man.

On the little g.
The little g is a translational distinction for convenience. The same word used for Yahweh is used for them, that is Elohim. It is seen plainly in an interlinear.

On All who are led by the spirit are sons of God
This statement is not to bring the Sons of God down to mortals, but to bring mortals into the status of the sons of God. That congregation of the Elohim in Psalm 82, we are to judge and replace that congregation as a new congregation of the Sons of God.

On Job?
You want me to comment on where the angels left. I can only assume you are referring to Job 1 and 2. Job 1 and 2 Describe a divine council scene just like Psalm 82 and 2 Chronicles 18:18-20. The only reference I see is where Satan came from, not where the angels left from. I do not understand the point you are trying to make. But whatever that point may be it cannot ignore Job 38.

Note in Duet. 32...the word "gods" is I Italics.
Which means not in the original text.

 

[Sanoy]

I'll read the above a little later but to Sum of this argument Turn to Genesis 6:12 and 13
Just as Cain was told by God that when he didn't do right sin lied at the door...so also
Man corrupted his own way. It doesn't say angels corrupted mankind....

Genesis 6 is a fragment of a larger body of understanding. The book of Enoch informs us of that larger body.

In the book of Enoch the corruption of man was not just in body. When the angels appeared to man they taught mankind* all sorts of evil. Azazel being the chief of those that taught evil. The book then describes the punishment of Azazel. He was bound in the desert and cursed by saying "let all sin be ascribed to him". This is why the "goat for azazel" containing the sin of the nation is led off into the desert. (One goat for the Lord, one goat FOR Azazel The word for Goat is sa'iyr, not Azazel, scapegoat is a contextual place holder word because the word is unknown apart from the book of Enoch.)

*This same appearance of divine beings teaching things to mankind appears all throughout the texts of the ANE. I can even parallel the specific teachings of the angels in the Book of Enoch to the teachings of the titans in the Titanomachy.

 

[Sanoy]

Note in Duet. 32...the word "gods" is I Italics.
Which means not in the original text.

Your pic is of Genesis 6 not Deuteronomy. The text does use gods see the interlinear > Deut 32:17. The interlinear is the original source text and it clearly shows it as Elohim "gods"

 

[Steve Petersen]

Your pic is of Genesis 6 not Deuteronomy. The text does use gods see the interlinear > Deut 32:16-17. The interlinear clearly shows it as Elohim "gods"

But the Masoretic text also uses Elohim to refer to God himself.

 

[Sanoy]

But the Masoretic text also uses Elohim to refer to God himself.

Both the LLX and the Masoretic do that. They even use Elohim to refer to Samuel by the witch of Endor. Elohim is not the name of God, it is a classification of being. It is a term that is completely unique to Hebrew - "god" in English is just our closest English word to it.

Short reference from Wikipedia on Elohim.
The word Elohim occurs more than 2500 times in the Hebrew Bible, with meanings ranging from "gods" in a general sense (as in Exodus 12:12, where it describes "the gods of Egypt"), to specific gods (e.g., 1 Kings 11:33, where it describes Chemosh "the god of Moab", or the frequent references to Yahweh (Jehovah) as the "elohim" of Israel), to demons, seraphim, and other supernatural beings, to the spirits of the dead brought up at the behest of King Saul in 1 Samuel 28:13, and even to kings and prophets (e.g., Exodus 4:16).[3] The phrase bene elohim, translated "sons of the Gods", has an exact parallel in Ugaritic and Phoenician texts, referring to the council of the gods.[3]

The last bit from Wiki

The phrase bene elohim, translated "sons of the Gods", has an exact parallel in Ugaritic and Phoenician texts, referring to the council of the gods.

Gives another reason why, under modern Biblical Scholarship, the Sethite theory fails. This was a term known throughout the ANE. We know through the surrounding texts what "sons of God" referred too.

 

[sdowney717]

"For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven." (Matt. 22:30)

Angels in heaven are elect angels who did not leave their God ordained abode.
The fallen angels though are no longer angels in heaven, so they are not the holy elect angels that Christ was referring to, they fell to the earth and so then became earthly creatures of passions.

Jude here does refer to the fallen angels, and I read a connection to sexuality in the phrasing of 'in a similar manner to these' (fallen angels), the people of those cities gave themselves over to sexual immorality...and gone after strange flesh, well it would be very strange for an angel which is of an entirely different nature to go after a creature of another nature, but angels are able to transform themselves, and interact with the flesh of humans and the natural world. For some have entertained angels unawares, meaning the angel would have felt every bit as human as a human would to you.

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; 7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

 

[Roseonathorn]

Only a theory: Did these fallen angels mess with dinosaurs too? Are these Smithsonians some human dinosaurs? Why have they not been spoken of earlier but the dinosaurs have been talked about. Or is this simply old fairytales as some would say? How do we know it is true when videos also can be manipulated nowadays. If You ever seen the movie "documentary" there are giants in Norway, You would believe it would be true until You see the threeheaded monster running out of the forest. It was done as a documentary with a twist, noone sane could believe those monsters exist.

 

[Sanoy]

Only a theory: Are these Smithsonians some human dinosaurs?

When the Smithsonian Journals mention weapons and tools found with the bones it should rule out the dinosaur hypothesis. This stuff was talked about. There are at least a thousand such newspaper articles from the era of manifest destiny describing it. It was however contrary to the plan of Manifest Destiny.