Are we mixed with giants or angels ?

[Sanoy]

Angels can appear to be men but are not men.

No one disputes that.

Pronunciation:el-o-heem'
Originlural of 0433
Definition:1) (plural)
1a) rulers, judges
1b) divine ones
1c) angels
1d) gods
2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)
2a) god, goddess
2b) godlike one
2c) works or special possessions of God
2d) the (true) God
2e) God

That is an ancient definition, and essentially just a list of how it has been translated. Modern Strongs lists ONLY God as the definition. The unique King James translation of Elohim as "Judges", from which Outdated-Strongs concordance derives "Judges", comes from the LLX Phrase "Judgement of God [Elohim]" and refers to the "divine council" not men. "EL" (god) will always be a root of the word "Elohim". [Source] Defining it as a men here is not right and downplays Jesus's reference to this verse in John 10:36.

I'll repeat what I have already said on Psalm 82...

On Psalm 82 and it's contrast to John 10:36.
If you place Jesus's usage of "ye are all Gods" to mean humans you cause Jesus to down play his own title. It's as if to say, "yeah I call myself a God and so are you...see I'm just like you no problem here, nothing special about me." But lets look at who Jesus calls "gods" in reference to Psalm 82...

"If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?"

He doesn't say everyone is a God here, but those whom the word of God came. And they arrest him for it. Why? If scripture makes everyone out to be a God so plainly then why would they try and arrest him for claiming the same right? He then follows to say look, if you don't believe me when I say I'm the son of God, believe my works. Why would he doubt their capacity to believe he is the son of God if every Joe out there is also a god?

The phrase "unto whom the word of God came" is to say the message of Psalm 82. Psalm 82 is the word of God spoken to the congregation of the Elohim condemning them to die like men. So Jesus is essentially saying "Look, if God calls even these condemned ones Elohim, then why do you call it blasphemy that I, whom the father sanctified and sent into the world, am the son of God?" That is the message of John 10:36. "unto whom the word of God came" is describing the subject which is "them". Them is described in Psalm 82 as the Congregation of the Elohim.

So we either have Jesus meaning...
"Look, if God calls even these condemned ones Elohim, then why do you call it blasphemy that I, whom the father sanctified and sent into the world, am the son of God?"
or
"yeah I call myself a God and so are you...see I'm just like you, no problem here, nothing special about me."

 

[Sanoy]

do you think the gods of psalm 82 are men?
i dont see men listed in the definitions.

I agree it makes 0 sense for God to proclaim that men will die like men. No Israelite king, judge, or prince was confused into thinking they were a god neither were they addressed as Elohim. That is anathema to Judaism.

 

[corinth77777]

No one disputes that.

That is an ancient definition, and essentially just a list of how it has been translated. Modern Strongs lists ONLY God as the definition. The unique King James translation of Elohim as "Judges", from which Outdated-Strongs concordance derives "Judges", comes from the LLX Phrase "Judgement of God [Elohim]" and refers to the "divine council" not men. "EL" (god) will always be a root of the word "Elohim". [Source] Defining it as a men here is not right and downplays Jesus's reference to this verse in John 10:36.

I'll repeat what I have already said on Psalm 82...

On Psalm 82 and it's contrast to John 10:36.
If you place Jesus's usage of "ye are all Gods" to mean humans you cause Jesus to down play his own title. It's as if to say, "yeah I call myself a God and so are you...see I'm just like you no problem here, nothing special about me." But lets look at who Jesus calls "gods" in reference to Psalm 82...

He doesn't say everyone is a God here, but those whom the word of God came. And they arrest him for it. Why? If scripture makes everyone out to be a God so plainly then why would they try and arrest him for claiming the same right? He then follows to say look, if you don't believe me when I say I'm the son of God, believe my works. Why would he doubt their capacity to believe he is the son of God if every Joe out there is also a god?

The phrase "unto whom the word of God came" is to say the message of Psalm 82. Psalm 82 is the word of God spoken to the congregation of the Elohim condemning them to die like men. So Jesus is essentially saying "Look, if God calls even these condemned ones Elohim, then why do you call it blasphemy that I, whom the father sanctified and sent into the world, am the son of God?" That is the message of John 10:36. "unto whom the word of God came" is describing the subject which is "them". Them is described in Psalm 82 as the Congregation of the Elohim.

So we either have Jesus meaning...
"Look, if God calls even these condemned ones Elohim, then why do you call it blasphemy that I, whom the father sanctified and sent into the world, am the son of God?"
or
"yeah I call myself a God and so are you...see I'm just like you, no problem here, nothing special about me."

I'm not sure what you are trying to argue. I referenced both scriptures referring to the same thing.
Those who are led by the spirit are sons of God.
Seems like you tried to make up an argument about how the term has been defined in different scriptures yet you haven't shared the scriptures that allows you to come to any conclusion.
You also seem to straw brain things I have not mentioned.... As all man are sons....
Read it as it is and you can see that Rulers and Judges can also be applicable.

I think my statements are of good taste...That if one stands in the place of God they are called gods. Not "The God" which is the difference for the reason showing the lower "g".

 

[corinth77777]

Right. Angels are Elohim not flesh in heaven. They left their estate and made themselves as men. This verse does not deny the reading of Genesis 6.

Where in the KJV does it add "and made themselves as men"? What verse doesn't deny Genesis 6?

 

[Sanoy]

I'm not sure what you are trying to argue. I referenced both scriptures referring to the same thing.
Those who are led by the spirit are sons of God.
Seems like you tried to make up an argument about how the term has been defined in different scriptures yet you haven't shared the scriptures that allows you to come to any conclusion.
You also seem to straw brain things I have not mentioned.... As all man are sons....
Read it as it is and you can see that Rulers and Judges can also be applicable.

I think my statements are of good taste...That if one stands in the place of God they are called gods. Not "The God" which is the difference for the reason showing the lower "g".

No, I'm saying YOUR definition list...

Pronunciation:el-o-heem'
Originlural of 0433
Definition:1) (plural)
1a) rulers, judges
1b) divine ones
1c) angels
1d) gods
2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)
2a) god, goddess
2b) godlike one
2c) works or special possessions of God
2d) the (true) God
2e) God

...is really a list of how this has been translated, not the definition. I even gave you a source reference. Strongs concordance lists both the definition and a list of how it's been translated before. In the modern concordance this is not the definition, but how one could translate it. However Judges/ruler are not human rulers/judges. Elohim still has the EL root, and in Hebrew means god. Judges/rulers refer to the divine council not men. That is what the divine council did, it's what Psalm 82 lists as their job.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to *become children of God, even to those who believe in His name.

*gínomai – properly, to emerge, become, transitioning from one point (realm, condition) to another. 1096 (gínomai) fundamentally means "become" (becoming, became) so it is not an exact equivalent to the ordinary equative verb "to be" (is, was, will be) as with 1510 /eimí (1511 /eínai, 2258 /ēn).

It is a transition, another instance of "Already-but-not-yet".

 

[Sanoy]

Where in the KJV does it add "and made themselves as men"? What verse doesn't deny Genesis 6?

There is no literal verse "made themselves as men" in the bible. It's understood from several very obvious verses. One for example is when Lot took two angels into his house. What did the men of Sodom say? Genesis 19:5

"And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them."

Yes, that is in the KJV. And yes they wanted to mate with those angels.

Another verse Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

 

[corinth77777]

There is no literal verse "made themselves as men" in the bible. It's understood from several very obvious verses. One for example is when Lot took two angels into his house. What did the men of Sodom say? Genesis 19:5
Yes, that is in the KJV. And yes they wanted to mate with those angels.

Another verse Hebrews 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

They thought they were men. Just as today some men think women are women but many men are having sex changes. Taking the appearance of man doesn't make An Angel a man. Nor does it mean they can procreate with man.

 

[Sanoy]

They thought they were men. Just as today some men think women are women but many men are having sex changes. Taking the appearance of man doesn't make An Angel a man.

Angels are spirits. The sodomites did not see a spirit, they saw a man. As I said there are many obvious examples, this was just one. We have another occasion where Jacob wrestles with an angel and wins, and another where Abraham feeds an angel. It's not an illusion, it is physicality.

No one is saying an Angel becomes a man entirely, but that they take on the physicality of a man, and then retake the spiritual form when their purpose is completed. In the case of the nephilim, the sons of God put on flesh, just like we have throughout the OT, and then they procreated with human women, then they put off their flesh to become spirits again.

 

[corinth77777]

No, I'm saying YOUR definition list...

...is really a list of how this has been translated, not the definition. I even gave you a source reference. Strongs concordance lists both the definition and a list of how it's been translated before. In the modern concordance this is not the definition, but how one could translate it. However Judges/ruler are not human rulers/judges. Elohim still has the EL root, and in Hebrew means god. Judges/rulers refer to the divine council not men. That is what the divine council did, it's what Psalm 82 lists as their job.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to *become children of God, even to those who believe in His name.

*gínomai – properly, to emerge, become, transitioning from one point (realm, condition) to another. 1096 (gínomai) fundamentally means "become" (becoming, became) so it is not an exact equivalent to the ordinary equative verb "to be" (is, was, will be) as with 1510 /eimí (1511 /eínai, 2258 /ēn).

It is a transition, another instance of "Already-but-not-yet".

From the passages I looked into yesterday the term gods could go both ways. And as I said at the beginning translation and interpretation change with culture and times.
To say that God's congregation is not Israel and the leaders are not men you still need to prove. You make statements wanting them to be true but there's no evidence.

 

[corinth77777]

Angels are spirits. The sodomites did not see a spirit, they saw a man. As I said there are many obvious examples, this was just one. We have another occasion where Jacob wrestles with an angel and wins, and another where Abraham feeds an angel. It's not an illusion, it is physicality.

No one is saying an Angel becomes a man entirely, but that they take on the physicality of a man, and then retake the spiritual form when their purpose is completed. In the case of the nephilim, the sons of God put on flesh, just like we have throughout the OT, and then they procreated with human women, then they put off their flesh to become spirits again.

When you add they "procreate" and never sight evidence, this to me is how fables get passed down through assumptions.
Give me one scripture from the Bible that state angels procreated.

 

[Sanoy]

From the passages I looked into yesterday the term gods could go both ways. And as I said at the beginning translation and interpretation change with culture and times.
To say that God's congregation is not Israel and the leaders are not men you still need to prove. You make statements wanting them to be true but there's no evidence.

You have made 0 attempt to show God's congregation in Psalm 82 is Israel. I will repeat again what I have already said on this.

• I have already told you what EL, the root of Elohim means. It means god
• There are no examples of Elohim referring to living human people. All examples Israel, Phoenicia, Ugaric, Cannan are of gods
• No Israelite ruler, judge, leader, priest, anyone referred to themselves, or even thought of themselves as an Elohim
• It would be blasphemy for any Israelite to call himself a god.
• The only use of Elohim as Judges comes from the KJV alone and is derived from the Phrase "judgement of God". Not earthly judges.
• At no point in Israels history have they not died like men. Save Elijah. Every person in the Book of Judges died like men and women. No Israelite at any time expected to die in another way than as a man dies.

If you want to say this is Israel, then give a reason. I have given you plenty to say it isn't.

 

[Sanoy]

When you add they "procreate" and never sight evidence, this to me is how fables get passed down through assumptions.
Give me one scripture from the Bible that state angels procreated.

This will be the third or fourth time in which I have had to quote this verse to you. That is not even counting how many times others have quoted it for you. Memorize it, write it down, so we don't have to keep repeating it.

Jude 6-7, speaking out of the content of Enoch 1.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

 

[corinth77777]

Ex 4:22

Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD: "Israel is My son, My firstborn.

 

[Sanoy]

Ex 4:22

Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the LORD: "Israel is My son, My firstborn.

He also refers to Israel like a wife. Plucking verses from all over the Bible and asserting that they refer to other books is eisegesis. If you want to do exegesis you have to show why Psalm 82 is referring to Israel. I'm sure you can do it for part of the chapter but it will fail the other half.

The "divine council" is a real thing found throughout the Bible and surrounding historical literature. It is the only thing that makes full sense of this chapter.

 

[corinth77777]

You have made 0 attempt to show God's congregation in Psalm 82 is Israel. I will repeat again what I have already said on this.

• I have already told you what EL, the root of Elohim means. It means god
• There are no examples of Elohim referring to living human people. All examples Israel, Phoenicia, Ugaric, Cannan are of gods
• No Israelite ruler, judge, leader, priest, anyone referred to themselves, or even thought of themselves as an Elohim
• It would be blasphemy for any Israelite to call himself a god.
• The only use of Elohim as Judges comes from the KJV alone and is derived from the Phrase "judgement of God". Not earthly judges.
• At no point in Israels history have they not died like men. Save Elijah. Every person in the Book of Judges died like men and women. No Israelite at any time expected to die in another way than as a man dies.

If you want to say this is Israel, then give a reason. I have given you plenty to say it isn't.

I already have. Look through the post
Anytime you stand in the place of God You become a judge. You may stand in the place but are coming down. I used the example of parent and sighted Mcgee. Therefore the judges or rulers are called gods.

 

[corinth77777]

He also refers to Israel like a wife. Plucking verses from all over the Bible and asserting that they refer to other books is eisegesis. If you want to do exegesis you have to show why Psalm 82 is referring to Israel. I'm sure you can do it for part of the chapter but it will fail the other half.

The "divine council" is a real thing found throughout the Bible and surrounding historical literature. It is the only thing that makes full sense of this chapter.

You only wish I was plucking verses...lol

 

[Sanoy]

You only wish I was plucking verses...lol

I don't need to wish for that. Your entire comment was literally a verse and nothing else. Apparently the only thing that will remain a wish is my hope for you to give me an exegetical reason for your conclusion.

 

[corinth77777]

He also refers to Israel like a wife. Plucking verses from all over the Bible and asserting that they refer to other books is eisegesis. If you want to do exegesis you have to show why Psalm 82 is referring to Israel. I'm sure you can do it for part of the chapter but it will fail the other half.

The "divine council" is a real thing found throughout the Bible and surrounding historical literature. It is the only thing that makes full sense of this chapter.

I already explained this...you need to go back and read the post.
People sometimes believe they are bigger then God himself. They think they have no need for Him and got their abilities even on their own. Liken to Parents that Lord over their children, they too must come down off their pedestal to be Judged. So it's about what people believe about themselves that in my opinion is the reason He says, "die as men."

 

[Sanoy]

I already have. Look through the post
Anytime you stand in the place of God You become a judge. You may stand in the place but are coming down. I used the example of parent and sighted Mcgee. Therefore the judges or rulers are called gods.

You are taking a word that means judges and a word that is translated as divine judge and saying they are the same. Bicycles are vehicles with two wheels but not all two wheeled vehicles are bicycles. This is why you don't pluck verses and apply them wherever you feel the need to apply them.

I will repeat what I have already said on this a third time.

• I have already told you what EL, the root of Elohim means. It means god
• There are no examples of Elohim referring to living human people. All examples Israel, Phoenicia, Ugaric, Cannan are of gods
• No Israelite ruler, judge, leader, priest, anyone referred to themselves, or even thought of themselves as an Elohim
• It would be blasphemy for any Israelite to call himself a god.
• The only use of Elohim as Judges comes from the KJV alone and is derived from the Phrase "judgement of God". Not earthly judges.
• At no point in Israels history have they not died like men. Save Elijah. Every person in the Book of Judges died like men and women. No Israelite at any time expected to die in another way than as a man dies.

 

[corinth77777]

I don't need to wish for that. Your entire comment was literally a verse and nothing else. Apparently the only thing that will remain a wish is my hope for you to give me an exegetical reason for your conclusion.

But you do wish...instead of reading post