Are we created eternal?

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

And I have understood the torment means that he is burned forever. That doesn’t necessary mean he is living, especially because according to the Bible, eternal life is for righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

If all live eternally, I don’t see any reason to say that only righteous will live.



Firstly, I want to say, I don’t think people are punished because the rejected Jesus. People are judged because of sin, and sin remains, if person doesn’t accept the forgiveness that is offered through Jesus.

Secondly, I think the rescue operation is significant, even if there is no eternal suffering.

(1) How is it torment if you don't feel it? If I beat on a dead piece of meat in a meat freezer with a baseball bat, is that tormenting the cow who is already dead? So, at the point that you are dead, how is it everlasting punishment? Why would Jesus use the same word (translated "eternal") for both? Why wouldn't He just say: "These will be permanently killed" or "tormented to death" if what you think He meant is actually what He meant?

(2) He didn't say we all live eternally, because we don't. Jesus defined eternal life differently than we do. Jesus said in John 17:3: "And this is eternal life, that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom You have sent." So, those who don't know Him don't have eternal life, by the very definition Jesus gives.

(3) For those who are suffering eternal punishment, it certainly wouldn't seem like "life" to be tormented. Jesus doesn't call it "eternal life", he calls that "eternal punishment".

(4) I do agree that we are all worthy of death, because of our sin. However, Jesus paid the price for all. Jesus even said He would draw all men to himself. We are saved from the wrath of God (not the wrath of another god, but of GOD), right? God put the stipulation that "whosoever believes...", not me., right?

(5) You are right that the rescue operation is significant whether it is eternal suffering or not. I didn't word that correctly. The opportunity to know and live with God is a far greater consequence, either way.

(6) My bigger point was that if something about people wasn't everlasting, then why did Jesus talk as if some consciousness was living on and tormented in hades (presumably all the way until the judgment)? And, if they were still conscious for that long, then why would it be logical to believe that it all stopped when they are cast somewhere where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth? And, Scripture says the devil is tormented day and night forever, not tormented day and night until he dies.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

About Steven,,,, I find comfort knowing that when I Die, I will be met by Jesus. The standing and Sitting has another meaning. Don't get it confused.

I'm not confused. I just said that that verse doesn't prove that we will be where Jesus currently is, just because Jesus is there.

 

[Der Alte]

<J4CJ>(1) How is it torment if you don't feel it? If I beat on a dead piece of meat in a meat freezer with a baseball bat, is that tormenting the cow who is already (1) How is it torment if you don't feel it? If I beat on a dead piece of meat in a meat freezer with a baseball bat, is that tormenting the cow who is already dead? So, at the point that you are dead, how is it everlasting punishment? Why would Jesus use the same word (translated "eternal") for both? Why wouldn't He just say: "These will be permanently killed" or "tormented to death" if what you think He meant is actually what He meant?
(2) He didn't say we all live eternally, because we don't. Jesus defined eternal life differently than we do. Jesus said in John 17:3: "And this is eternal life, that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom You have sent." So, those who don't know Him don't have eternal life, by the very definition Jesus gives.
(3) For those who are suffering eternal punishment, it certainly wouldn't seem like "life" to be tormented. Jesus doesn't call it "eternal life", he calls that "eternal punishment".
(4) I do agree that we are all worthy of death, because of our sin. However, Jesus paid the price for all. Jesus even said He would draw all men to himself. We are saved from the wrath of God (not the wrath of another god, but of GOD), right? God put the stipulation that "whosoever believes...", not me., right?
(5) You are right that the rescue operation is significant whether it is eternal suffering or not. I didn't word that correctly. The opportunity to know and live with God is a far greater consequence, either way.
(6) My bigger point was that if something about people wasn't everlasting, then why did Jesus talk as if some consciousness was living on and tormented in hades (presumably all the way until the judgment)? And, if they were still conscious for that long, then why would it be logical to believe that it all stopped when they are cast somewhere where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth? And, Scripture says the devil is tormented day and night forever, not tormented day and night until he dies
dead? So, at the point that you are dead, how is it everlasting punishment? Why would Jesus use the same word (translated "eternal") for both? Why wouldn't He just say: "These will be permanently killed" or "tormented to death" if what you think He meant is actually what He meant?
(2) He didn't say we all live eternally, because we don't. Jesus defined eternal life differently than we do. Jesus said in John 17:3: "And this is eternal life, that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom You have sent." So, those who don't know Him don't have eternal life, by the very definition Jesus gives.
(3) For those who are suffering eternal punishment, it certainly wouldn't seem like "life" to be tormented. Jesus doesn't call it "eternal life", he calls that "eternal punishment".
(4) I do agree that we are all worthy of death, because of our sin. However, Jesus paid the price for all. Jesus even said He would draw all men to himself. We are saved from the wrath of God (not the wrath of another god, but of GOD), right? God put the stipulation that "whosoever believes...", not me., right?
(5) You are right that the rescue operation is significant whether it is eternal suffering or not. I didn't word that correctly. The opportunity to know and live with God is a far greater consequence, either way.
(6) My bigger point was that if something about people wasn't everlasting, then why did Jesus talk as if some consciousness was living on and tormented in hades (presumably all the way until the judgment)? And, if they were still conscious for that long, then why would it be logical to believe that it all stopped when they are cast somewhere where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth? And, Scripture says the devil is tormented day and night for ever and ever.

end

At least one of the ECF agrees with you "How is it torment if you don't feel it? ... So, at the point that you are dead, how is it everlasting punishment?"

Concerning “punishment” one early church father, Justin, wrote,

“‘Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

I didn't quote Justin. I don't know how that was attributed to me.

 

[Der Alte]

I didn't quote Justin. I don't know how that was attributed to me.

I quoted Justin to show that at least one ECF agreed with what you said about punishment. The quote function went haywire and I couldn't fix it.

 

[ClementofA]

The sheep and goats time is at the end of the world. People will already know that Jesus Christ is real...since the time of the 6th seal. After the final Gog war, there will be more time, and the end of the world will come at a day and hour not known to man. The world is to be watching for that hour that will come upon them as a snare. The people still living will be divided up into sheep and goats/wheat and tares. The goats/tares type will take away to be cut asunder and burned in the eternal fire...where their worm will not die.
The unjust wicked of the dead will rise are not part of the sheep and goats judgment. They have already been split up at the time they died.
The ones in hell are going to be aware that their names are not found written in the book of life, and get themselves cast into the lake of fire....eternal fire...outer darkness...blackness of darkness...reserved for them forever. The just will have to go out and view them at times. It seems this will be done as a warning to them not to sin on the new earth.

"And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aiōnios)" (Mt.25:26).

Since the structure of this verse is best described as being a "parallelism" then the Greek word aiōnios must carry with it the same meaning in both instances where it is used.

Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
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213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

 

[Bladerunner]

The wicked die eternally as to their bodies, but their worm does not die.
The just get new bodies and will eat from the tree of life.

It is the body that puts on immortality-as to the just.

We (our souls) are in a container (mortal Body), much like Data on Memory card. The Data on that memory card cannot be seen, it does not weigh anything (?) and if You destroy the container, the data is gone, not destroyed. As in your Body, your soul is eternal. It weighs nothing (?) and when your body is destroyed (dead), the souls is not destroy just gone to one of two places.

God gives us a choice of the living arrangements for that eternity after our mortal body dies. Have you made your choice. The Choices are living with GOD on streets of Gold or living with pure evil in the eternal Lake of Fire. It is an 'Either/Or' Choice as there is no third option.

OH, The ability to make this choice STOPS when you DIE! and we are not guaranteed the next minute. Don't believe I would tarry long.

(?) Yes, it is true, the soul weighs nothing. People who have died were weighed each day they were hospitalized. WHen they died, they were weighed and nothing had changed.

(?) Much like the Data Card and You can do this experiment. Simply weigh the data card when it is empty of data. Then fill it up will as much data as the card will allow. Now weigh it again. You will find the card weighs the same as it was empty.


Blade

 

[Bladerunner]

I'm not confused. I just said that that verse doesn't prove that we will be where Jesus currently is, just because Jesus is there.

The Bible tells us that if we are in Jesus, when we die or are Raptured, we will be redeemed, transfigured and will be with Jesus Christ everywhere He goes. We are the Body of Jesus Christ.

I thought you meant we could not use what Steven saw, as He was dying, to hope we would be in heaven when we die? If this is the case, My Bad.

Blade

 

[Bladerunner]

Then, by the same reasoning, the "parallel" in Rom.5:19 proves Scriptural universalism to be true:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

And your translation of Mt.25:46 contradicts this translation of Lamentations 3:

Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.

While these translations (& others) of Mt.25:46 are in harmony with all the verses above i have posted:

The New Testament: A Translation, by Eastern Orthodox scholar David Bentley Hart, 2017, Yale Press):
"And these shall go to the chastening of that Age, but the just to the life of that Age."

Youngs Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1898:
"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Emphatic Diaglott, 1942 edition
"And these shall go forth to the aionian 1 cutting-off; but the RIGHTEOUS to aionian Life."

Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983
And these shall be coming away into chastening eonian, yet the just into life eonian."

Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959
"And these shall go away into age-abiding correction, But the righteous into age-abiding life."

Unique Proof For Christian, Biblical Universalism

75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help

213 Questions Without Answers:
Questions Without Answers

You put so much in your post about so many different topics that no-one cares to answer you. Is that your intent?

Blade

 

[ClementofA]

You put so much in your post about so many different topics that no-one cares to answer you. Is that your intent?

Blade

It's only been like 2 hours since my post. Why don't you give it a few days or weeks?

If you look at my thousands of other posts, newbie, they are often the same & often answered.

 

[Bladerunner]

(1) How is it torment if you don't feel it? If I beat on a dead piece of meat in a meat freezer with a baseball bat, is that tormenting the cow who is already dead? So, at the point that you are dead, how is it everlasting punishment? Why would Jesus use the same word (translated "eternal") for both? Why wouldn't He just say: "These will be permanently killed" or "tormented to death" if what you think He meant is actually what He meant?

(2) He didn't say we all live eternally, because we don't. Jesus defined eternal life differently than we do. Jesus said in John 17:3: "And this is eternal life, that they might know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, Whom You have sent." So, those who don't know Him don't have eternal life, by the very definition Jesus gives.

(3) For those who are suffering eternal punishment, it certainly wouldn't seem like "life" to be tormented. Jesus doesn't call it "eternal life", he calls that "eternal punishment".

(4) I do agree that we are all worthy of death, because of our sin. However, Jesus paid the price for all. Jesus even said He would draw all men to himself. We are saved from the wrath of God (not the wrath of another god, but of GOD), right? God put the stipulation that "whosoever believes...", not me., right?

(5) You are right that the rescue operation is significant whether it is eternal suffering or not. I didn't word that correctly. The opportunity to know and live with God is a far greater consequence, either way.

(6) My bigger point was that if something about people wasn't everlasting, then why did Jesus talk as if some consciousness was living on and tormented in hades (presumably all the way until the judgment)? And, if they were still conscious for that long, then why would it be logical to believe that it all stopped when they are cast somewhere where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth? And, Scripture says the devil is tormented day and night forever, not tormented day and night until he dies.

Johnny4ChristJesus...Have you ever read the Rich Man and Lazarus story.. It will answer your questions. Luke 16:19-31

Blade

 

[1213]

(1) How is it torment if you don't feel it? If I beat on a dead piece of meat in a meat freezer with a baseball bat, is that tormenting the cow who is already dead? So, at the point that you are dead, how is it everlasting punishment? Why would Jesus use the same word (translated "eternal") for both? Why wouldn't He just say: "These will be permanently killed" or "tormented to death" if what you think He meant is actually what He meant?

About the word ”torment”, Bible tells the torment it the fire. If fire torments it means fire burns. And fire can burn, even if the ones in fire are not alive. I don’t think it means torture in this.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

About the word ”torment”, Bible tells the torment it the fire. If fire torments it means fire burns. And fire can burn, even if the ones in fire are not alive. I don’t think it means torture in this.

I think at this point, we should move on. Neither of us believes Scripture supports the other's position. We have made our points. When "the time" comes, we will know what happens.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Johnny4ChristJesus...Have you ever read the Rich Man and Lazarus story.. It will answer your questions. Luke 16:19-31

Blade

Yes. That is actually what I was using to explain why I think torment is an uncomfortable place to be--where you are conscious. 1213 has been trying to convince me that "torments" is just a synonym for fire and that you can be dead burning and still would be in "torments". To me, the devil isn't tormented for ever and ever (Rev 20:10) if he has no consciousness of being tormented, simply because his dead shell is in a fire.