Are vegetables overrated?

[jimmyjimmy]

That falls in with the "Low Carb/High Fat/High Protein" category I mentioned in my post.

Like I touched on, pretty much every successful diet is essentially just a branded name for one of the two formulas below:
Low Carb/High Fat/High Protein
Low Fat/Moderate Protein/High Carb

It's mainly just the high carb/high fat combo people need to avoid...and unfortunately, all of the common popular foods people like to eat seem to fall in that category.

There's some pretty basic biology/science behind why that is.

The higher you're insulin production, the more your body tries to hold fat in the cells...so if you're going to be eating high glycemic index foods (IE: foods that raise your body's insulin production) aka, starches & sugars, you need to stay away from the high fat foods because your body's own natural processes are going to try to store it. ...but if you're staying away from the fatty food while going high carb, and are at least keeping moderately active, your body will just store the excess carbohydrates as glycogen (which our bodies have virtually infinite storage for).

However, if you want to eat the high fat foods (steaks, etc...), you just keep the carbs low, which will keep the insulin production down and put your body into ketogenesis which is essentially "burn fat as your primary energy source" mode.

Our bodies can adapt to a couple different dietary patterns, however, eating high fat and high carb at the same time isn't one of them...unless you're blessed with a great metabolism and/or putting in some serious time in the gym.

Yes. It's all about insulin. . .

Besides weight loss, cardiac health and cancer prevention can't be overlooked. Add to that dementia, and Ive become convinced that whole-food, plant-based vegan diet is best choice, all around.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

I have a masters degree in physiology and one of my textbooks was the main medical physiology book used in medical school. I simply asked, what is your scientific evidence the transport of nutrients in humans, varies by that much and how?

So, if you have taken transport phenomena, you know your scientific proof for this, because you can show it in an exercise (what I offered to give.)

It is an exercise in transport phenomena. That is the scientific evidence. I don't know what to tell you other than offering you the full solution to how it works with an example, or referring you to a chemical engineering or physics textbook.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

cardiac health and cancer prevention can't be overlooked. Add to that dementia, and Ive become convinced that whole-food, plant-based vegan diet is best choice, all around.

True, you want to focus on those things as well...but despite what plant-based "documentaries" (and I put that term in quotes intentionally, because most are actually advocacy films passed off as documentaries, eating meat, in and of itself, isn't necessarily the magic bullet that's causing those diseases.

Just as an example, I'll provide some of my own numbers from my Cleveland Clinic test results from the past few years.

It doesn't list body weight on there, but in 2013 I was around 215 lbs.

Between the first 2 sets of results (which was around 1yr 9mo time), I was strictly Paleo with a ratio of about 60% animal proteins (and fatty animal proteins at that - eggs, steak, etc...), and 40% greens (with the occasional treat here an there to keep my sanity lol)

In that time period, I went from 215 lbs down to about 180lbs...and as you can see, my cholesterol dropped from 139/42, down to 108/54...and that's with absolutely no change to any other aspect of my life aside from the diet.

Based on the kinds of things I was eating, the vegan advocates would tell you that I should've ballooned up and that my cholesterol should've skyrocketed...as we can see, that didn't happen.

Now, in the 2 year period between the 2014 result and my physical from last November, I did switch my diet around a little more and got rid of 99% of the bovine products (with the exception of an occasional grass fed steak), including getting rid of dairy...not for health reasons, just simply due to the horrid impact bovine food production has on water supplies and the environment as a whole. However, in that time period, I still consumed plenty of eggs, chicken, and some occasional pork products. From 2014 until present day, I've adopted a diligent gym schedule (5 days a week, rain or shine, I never miss a session)

As you can see, it wasn't a fluke, those numbers came in at 99/55. (I attribute the slight LDL drop to the exercise routine as exercise is known to improve cholesterol).

Now, currently, I have moved away from the animal product a little more (no intention of cutting them out though) and the meat I do get I've been getting from a free-range grass fed farm...like I mentioned before, for environmental and ethical reasons.

There's a valid environmental and ethical argument that can be made for eating less animals and more plants, I'll definitely concede on that point...however, the nutritional/health arguments in favor of getting rid of animal proteins are weak at best and tend to be the result of cherry picked data or poorly controlled studies.

 

[RDKirk]

There's a valid environmental and ethical argument that can be made for eating less animals and more plants, I'll definitely concede on that point...however, the nutritional/health arguments in favor of getting rid of animal proteins are weak at best and tend to be the result of cherry picked data or poorly controlled studies.

I agree.

 

[Tanj]

So, if you have taken transport phenomena, you know your scientific proof for this, because you can show it in an exercise (what I offered to give.)

It is an exercise in transport phenomena. That is the scientific evidence. I don't know what to tell you other than offering you the full solution to how it works with an example, or referring you to a chemical engineering or physics textbook.

A full solution to how it works with an example please. I have 30 years of biomedical research science experience, so hopefully I will be able to muddle through. I'm just assuming you were going for some kind of joke to suggest nutritional biology is best explained by chemical engineering or physics.

 

[bhsmte]

So, if you have taken transport phenomena, you know your scientific proof for this, because you can show it in an exercise (what I offered to give.)

It is an exercise in transport phenomena. That is the scientific evidence. I don't know what to tell you other than offering you the full solution to how it works with an example, or referring you to a chemical engineering or physics textbook.

This doesn't tell me much.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

A full solution to how it works with an example please. I have 30 years of biomedical research science experience, so hopefully I will be able to muddle through. I'm just assuming you were going for some kind of joke to suggest nutritional biology is best explained by chemical engineering or physics.

Since we are assuming,

I am assuming you have qualified your credentials for the purpose of ridiculing what I have to say, or what I will say - a show of ego to establish your alleged intellectual hegemony in the field that is tangentially connected with topic, while at the same time not-too-subtlely electing yourself as the representative authority on what is biologically, chemically and physically possible and accurate.

If you are three decades in biomedical research experience, you should know what I am talking about. Your old books would have the answer - and you wouldn't have to resort to glibly asking a stranger for proof while grandstanding your credentials. It is transparent even in text.

So, I am going to safely assume that it wouldn't matter to you.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

This doesn't tell me much.

O.K.

 

[Tanj]

Since we are assuming,

I am assuming you have qualified your credentials for the purpose of ridiculing what I have to say, or what I will say - a show of ego to establish your alleged intellectual hegemony in the field that is tangentially connected with topic, while at the same time not-too-subtlely electing yourself as the representative authority on what is biologically, chemically and physically possible and accurate.

If you are three decades in biomedical research experience, you should know what I am talking about. Your old books would have the answer - and you wouldn't have to resort to glibly asking a stranger for proof while grandstanding your credentials. It is transparent even in text.

Well, no, after three decades of biomedical research experience, including some work with the ABO locus, I have never come across a single shred of evidence that links said locus to any aspect of nutrition transport.

You said you could provide a complete description with an example, I am still waiting to see if that was the truth.

So, I am going to safely assume that it wouldn't matter to you.

It's the less well informed that may be swayed by your unevidenced assertions I care more about.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

True, you want to focus on those things as well...but despite what plant-based "documentaries" (and I put that term in quotes intentionally, because most are actually advocacy films passed off as documentaries, eating meat, in and of itself, isn't necessarily the magic bullet that's causing those diseases.

Just as an example, I'll provide some of my own numbers from my Cleveland Clinic test results from the past few years.

View attachment 204014
View attachment 204017

It doesn't list body weight on there, but in 2013 I was around 215 lbs.

Between the first 2 sets of results (which was around 1yr 9mo time), I was strictly Paleo with a ratio of about 60% animal proteins (and fatty animal proteins at that - eggs, steak, etc...), and 40% greens (with the occasional treat here an there to keep my sanity lol)

In that time period, I went from 215 lbs down to about 180lbs...and as you can see, my cholesterol dropped from 139/42, down to 108/54...and that's with absolutely no change to any other aspect of my life aside from the diet.

Based on the kinds of things I was eating, the vegan advocates would tell you that I should've ballooned up and that my cholesterol should've skyrocketed...as we can see, that didn't happen.

Now, in the 2 year period between the 2014 result and my physical from last November, I did switch my diet around a little more and got rid of 99% of the bovine products (with the exception of an occasional grass fed steak), including getting rid of dairy...not for health reasons, just simply due to the horrid impact bovine food production has on water supplies and the environment as a whole. However, in that time period, I still consumed plenty of eggs, chicken, and some occasional pork products. From 2014 until present day, I've adopted a diligent gym schedule (5 days a week, rain or shine, I never miss a session)

As you can see, it wasn't a fluke, those numbers came in at 99/55. (I attribute the slight LDL drop to the exercise routine as exercise is known to improve cholesterol).

Now, currently, I have moved away from the animal product a little more (no intention of cutting them out though) and the meat I do get I've been getting from a free-range grass fed farm...like I mentioned before, for environmental and ethical reasons.

There's a valid environmental and ethical argument that can be made for eating less animals and more plants, I'll definitely concede on that point...however, the nutritional/health arguments in favor of getting rid of animal proteins are weak at best and tend to be the result of cherry picked data or poorly controlled studies.

Thanks for the thorough post.

I don't wish to derail the thread anymore than I already have, and I have been on both types of diets, and lost lots of weight on a very carb-restricted diet, so I am with you; however, cholesterol is only one measure, and it's not a good one. People with great cholesterol numbers drop dead of heart attacks all day long, and people with "high" cholesterol can have squeaky clean arteries.

Inflammation, which damages the endothelial cells of arteries is a better explanation for arterial disease.

Also, regarding cancer, you (and I) don't yet know what you have done to elevate your risk of colon cancer, for instance.

 

[Rajni]

Also, regarding cancer, you (and I) don't yet know what you have done to elevate your risk of colon cancer, for instance.

To be honest, and I know this sounds defeatist, but I've given up worrying about cancer. It seems to be such a given anymore, and hey, I gotta die of something.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Thanks for the thorough post.

I don't wish to derail the thread anymore than I already have, and I have been on both types of diets, and lost lots of weight on a very carb-restricted diet, so I am with you; however, cholesterol is only one measure, and it's not a good one. People with great cholesterol numbers drop dead of heart attacks all day long, and people with "high" cholesterol can have squeaky clean arteries.

Inflammation, which damages the endothelial cells of arteries is a better explanation for arterial disease.

Also, regarding cancer, you (and I) don't yet know what you have done to elevate your risk of colon cancer, for instance.

I agree in part. Although inflammation can cause cell damage the operative substance for CAD (that I have) is plaque; that gooey mixture of cholesterol and who-knows-what else, now more and more referred to as plaque.

I have never been overweight, had higher cholesterol numbers, or high blood pressure, and have always been physically active. Yet I developed coronary artery disease that led to CABG (coronary artery bypass graft) surgery a few years ago.

What I had was a persistent coating of plaque on the back of my tongue. I didn't think much of it as it was pretty common. "Tongue scrapers" are even sold to remove it daily, in health food stores of all places.

I never associated it with my CAD until I began reading about all sorts of problems resulting from poor diet and poor digestion. I have always thought that I had a pretty good diet, but I questioned the efficiency of my digestion of that 'pretty good diet'. With the recent emphasis on pre and pro biotics I began to think that perhaps the plaque on my tongue was the result of poor digestion (and of course poor elimination as well) and further that this was the same plaque that had plugged up my arteries. I deduced this as the plaque must surely be carried by the bloodstream to be deposited on the back of my tongue thus it would circulate through the arteries that feed the heart as well.

This coating on the tongue has been cited as an 'indicator' of digestive problems for millennia. It is all but ignored by doctors in the west, and there has been no connection with arterial plaque (yet).

So about one year ago I changed my diet. But only slightly. I added more fiber, in the form of more whole grain bread. I actually built my diet around bread; toast in the morning, a sandwich in the afternoon

Within weeks my digestion improved, indicated by a better BM; easy to pass, compact and well shaped, and (drumroll please) almost odorless. The coating on my tongue disappeared, for the first time in memory. All what I believe are indicators of now efficient digestion and elimination.

I also believe that by limiting the variety of foods I eat my gut develops a more vigorous population of bacteria for those foods that I do eat thus further aiding in complete digestion and the resulting efficient absorption of nutrients contained in them. Elimination is enhanced by adequate fiber, and competes the whole process in a very satisfactory way.

I have always been quite energetic, but my energy level is at an all time high. I'm 77, work a very physical job, lift weights regularly, and enjoy hunting (I hunt from a tree stand), fishing, and cutting firewood. I never tire but I do get short of breath on occasion, a warning sign that my CAD is, and will be, still with me.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

Well, no, after three decades of biomedical research experience, including some work with the ABO locus, I have never come across a single shred of evidence that links said locus to any aspect of nutrition transport.

You said you could provide a complete description with an example, I am still waiting to see if that was the truth.



It's the less well informed that may be swayed by your unevidenced assertions I care more about.

Uh huh.

A lot of CF forum posters seem to believe stupidity, lack of perception and judge of character, and an overall density is necessary to join these forums.

I offered to complete the solutions for someone who I was conversing with - with whom I didn't detect any rancidity despite our disagreement.

And, that was my offer - not an appeal to a demand. What makes you think I am going to lecture a self-proclaimed tri-decade biomedical researcher? Because, I do know biomedical researchers that specialize in hematology - and they understand full well the transport phenomena of blood even respective to different "types." So, before I pretend that you are sincere, I am honestly wondering what possessed you to come into a conversation for which you claim to have vast intellectual experience - demanding evidence, and quipping your own commentary as if you do NOT need what you are asking for.

You aren't getting anything from me, Tanj, but it is interesting the psychology that would cause someone (true or not) to boast several decades of biological science experience, while at the same time attempt to deceive whomever you can into believing your appeal for evidence is one of honest seeking, not an appeal and extension of your ego. I would think someone of your intellect would know not to scoff at something because YOU haven't seen it. But, I suppose I am getting some pertinent insight into your thinking processes - in practice and in general.

Now, this is in general issue: the fact that people keep asking for links and scholarly articles to back what I said up is not unnecessary, but what it says to me is that these people haven't seen a transport phenomena book, a fluid mechanics book, or they have forgotten that blood chemistry - especially functionality in blood chemistry. Paint affects overall blood volume because of its functionality in reaction with proteins and tigens pf the blood. What has been said before should be verifiable with your own tools of mathematics and science - transport phenomena.

It is like telling someone to prove that Newton''s Law of Gravitation can be derved from quantum field theory. The paper(s) exist - and they are about a paragraph long. However, you don't need the scholarly articles, or even links to show this. Likely, you WONT find links focusing on something so elementary that that one problem would be well funded enough to inform the public and colleagues.

All you need is math and physical knowledge to show it.


Edit: I made a wrong assumption about your faith, by assuming you had one.

 

[Tanj]

You aren't getting anything from me, Tanj

I suspected as much.

All you need is math and physical knowledge to show it.

Apparently you have neither.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I agree in part. Although inflammation can cause cell damage the operative substance for CAD (that I have) is plaque; that gooey mixture of cholesterol and who-knows-what else, now more and more referred to as plaque.

I have never been overweight, had higher cholesterol numbers, or high blood pressure, and have always been physically active. Yet I developed coronary artery disease that led to CABG (coronary artery bypass graft) surgery a few years ago.

What I had was a persistent coating of plaque on the back of my tongue. I didn't think much of it as it was pretty common. "Tongue scrapers" are even sold to remove it daily, in health food stores of all places.

I never associated it with my CAD until I began reading about all sorts of problems resulting from poor diet and poor digestion. I have always thought that I had a pretty good diet, but I questioned the efficiency of my digestion of that 'pretty good diet'. With the recent emphasis on pre and pro biotics I began to think that perhaps the plaque on my tongue was the result of poor digestion (and of course poor elimination as well) and further that this was the same plaque that had plugged up my arteries. I deduced this as the plaque must surely be carried by the bloodstream to be deposited on the back of my tongue thus it would circulate through the arteries that feed the heart as well.

This coating on the tongue has been cited as an 'indicator' of digestive problems for millennia. It is all but ignored by doctors in the west, and there has been no connection with arterial plaque (yet).

So about one year ago I changed my diet. But only slightly. I added more fiber, in the form of more whole grain bread. I actually built my diet around bread; toast in the morning, a sandwich in the afternoon

Within weeks my digestion improved, indicated by a better BM; easy to pass, compact and well shaped, and (drumroll please) almost odorless. The coating on my tongue disappeared, for the first time in memory. All what I believe are indicators of now efficient digestion and elimination.

I also believe that by limiting the variety of foods I eat my gut develops a more vigorous population of bacteria for those foods that I do eat thus further aiding in complete digestion and the resulting efficient absorption of nutrients contained in them. Elimination is enhanced by adequate fiber, and competes the whole process in a very satisfactory way.

I have always been quite energetic, but my energy level is at an all time high. I'm 77, work a very physical job, lift weights regularly, and enjoy hunting (I hunt from a tree stand), fishing, and cutting firewood. I never tire but I do get short of breath on occasion, a warning sign that my CAD is, and will be, still with me.

I'm almost old enough to talk about BMs, but not quite.

I'm having shortness of breath, and it scares the crap out of me.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

I'm almost old enough to talk about BMs, but not quite.

I'm having shortness of breath, and it scares the crap out of me.

Tell your doctor; take the stress test. If you do poorly on the test you may need an angiogram to check those coronary arteries. Do it!

Coronary Angiogram: Read What Happens During the Procedure

 

[Ygrene Imref]

I suspected as much.



Apparently you have neither.

Excellent. I am glad we understand each other, however you still seem to be under the illusionary spell of assumptions, and patency.

I am still open to discussing everything I said in an honest way even if one disagrees with me (and vindicates themselves in a way that is satisfactory to the individual, or individuals.) But, I have been literally warned too many times not to indulge the dog and pony show of "show me evidence/that evidence doesn't satisfy me therefore you are ridiculous" on CF debate forums, and its related debate tactic motifs, to participate. I know the end game of such interactions for the parties involved. I said exactly what I meant, and everything aforementioned is exactly what I mean - no pretense, agenda or hidden motives.

 

[Tanj]

Excellent. I am glad we understand each other, however you still seem to be under the illusionary spell of assumptions, and patency.

Quick check, when you say patency, do you mean I am suffering from openness or a parasite infection?

Note to the readers: Check with google, these are the two definitions of "patency"

I am still open to discussing everything I said in an honest way

That appears to be untrue. You still have not provided the explanation + example you promised several posts ago.

But, I have been literally warned too many times to indulge the dog and pony show of "show me evidence/that evidence doesnt satisfy me therefore you are ridiculous,"

You haven't shown any evidence at all. If anything makes you look ridiculous, it is that.

 

[Ygrene Imref]

Quick check, when you say patency, do you mean I am suffering from openness or a parasite infection?

Note to the readers: Check with google, these are the two definitions of "patency"




That appears to be untrue. You still have not provided the explanation + example you promised several posts ago.



You haven't shown any evidence at all. If anything makes you look ridiculous, it is that.

Excellent.

 

[bill5]

I have believed for some time now that vegetables (and fruits) are vastly overrated as being necessary for good nutrition as they are pretty nutrient poor generally.

lol. That's hilariously wrong, generally.

We're nothing but primates, so veggies and fruits must be like 100% of our diet if we want to be healthy and our kids to be healthy.

That's even funnier (i.e. even less accurate).

Good grief. Where do you people get your "info?" Misinformation.com?