Are Trinitarians Christians?

edpobre · Aug 23, 2002

Originally posted by Hojo Hominygrits
Water can be vapor, solid, and liquid in form and still be water. Why can't God be the same? The basic nature of the elements that make up our universe I think are a reflection of the character of their Creator.

Ok, no more deep thoughts by Hojo. It makes my brain hurt Mr. Gumby.

Hojo,

A man is walking a Labrador, a Terrier and a Pitbull. How many dogs do you see - one dog or three dogs?

Isn't this how you see God?

Ed

edpobre · Aug 23, 2002

Originally posted by LewisWildermuth
On to the topic of the thread, can trinitarians and non-trinitarians both be Christians? Sure since the only definition for being a Christian in the Bible is belief in Jesus as savior.

Hi Lewis!

Please direct us to the verse in the Bible which defines a Christian as one who believes in Jesus as savior. I bet you won't find any.

On the otrher hand, the Bible teaches that the DISCIPLES of Christ were first called CHRISTIANS in Antioch (Acts 11:26). Thus, DISCIPLES of Christ are CHRISTIANS. The question is: Who is a DISCIPLE of Christ?

Again, the Bible teaches that a DISCIPLE of Christ is one who BELIEVES in Jesusw and ABIDES in HIS word (John 8:31).

Do Trinitarians BELIEVE in Jesus and ABIDE in HIS word? How about NON-Trinitarians?

Ed

 

eldermike · Aug 23, 2002

2TI 1:8 So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 11 And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher. 12 That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.

franklin · Aug 23, 2002

Originally posted by edpobre
Are you saying that  those who do NOT believe the Nicene Creed can be Christians too! Then why was I told NOT to post in the "Christians Only" forum because I don't believe the Nicene Creed? Is there a  NON-Trinitarian who believes ther Nicene Creed? 

The Nicene Creed: (in part)

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

The Scripture:

Mark 12:29, "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:"

Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"

Isaiah 44:6, "...beside me there is no God."

Isaiah 45:5, "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me:"

Isaiah 46:9, "...I am God, and there is none else;"

1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

1 Corinthians 8:6, "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

John 17:3, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

The simple picture the Scriptures present to us of Jesus Christ is that:
He was born a babe (Luke 2:7).
He "increased in wisdom" (Luke 2:52).
He "learned obedience by the things that he suffered" (Hebrews 5:8).
He was "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" (Hebrews 4:15).
He "offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared" (Hebrews 5:7).

Try to honestly harmonize that with the Trinitarian idea of omnipotent and omniscient co-equality and co-eternity. It just does not fit and cannot fit. To make it fit we must break down all the meaning of language. That is what Trinitarians have done. Why should we try to make it fit? The Trinity is not taught in the scripture. Why then not just accept the scriptural account and forget about the "Trinity"?

edpobre · Aug 23, 2002

Originally posted by franklin

The Nicene Creed: (in part)

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

The Scripture:

Mark 12:29, "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:"

Deuteronomy 6:4, "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:"

Isaiah 44:6, "...beside me there is no God."

Isaiah 45:5, "I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me:"

Isaiah 46:9, "...I am God, and there is none else;"

1 Timothy 2:5, "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;"

1 Corinthians 8:6, "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him."

John 17:3, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."

The simple picture the Scriptures present to us of Jesus Christ is that:
He was born a babe (Luke 2:7).
He "increased in wisdom" (Luke 2:52).
He "learned obedience by the things that he suffered" (Hebrews 5:8).
He was "in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin" (Hebrews 4:15).
He "offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared" (Hebrews 5:7).

Try to honestly harmonize that with the Trinitarian idea of omnipotent and omniscient co-equality and co-eternity. It just does not fit and cannot fit. To make it fit we must break down all the meaning of language. That is what Trinitarians have done. Why should we try to make it fit? The Trinity is not taught in the scripture. Why then not just accept the scriptural account and forget about the "Trinity"?

Hi Franklin!

Add to this John 8:40 KJV which says: "But now you seek to kill ME, a MAN who has told you the TRUTH which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this."

There is simply NO WAY that the Nicene Creed is telling the TRUTH about Jesus!

Ed

 

franklin · Aug 23, 2002

Originally posted by edpobre
Hi Franklin!
Add to this John 8:40 KJV which says: "But now you seek to kill ME, a MAN who has told you the TRUTH which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this."
There is simply NO WAY that the Nicene Creed is telling the TRUTH about Jesus! Ed 

Aaaamen Ed!  We can add many, many passages to disprove not only this creed but just about all the rest of them!  No one even knows who wrote the man made nicene creed!  The author is unknown!  He was probably some guy who was up late one night with his candle burning out and low on ink for his feathered pen!      Which brought something else to my attention, isn't there something in Revelation about re-writing, adding to and taking away from the inspired word of God?  hmmmmm!!!  Makes one wonder huh?!?

 

PrinceJeff · Aug 23, 2002

2 Peter 1 I guess that makes Peter a liar then. OOOOOH Ed and Franklin I guess Peter is in Hell because he called Jesus "our great God and Savior"! And don't give me any tripe about it being a mistranslation according to your more correct Lamsa or TEV or Moffatt bibles.

ZoneChaos · Aug 23, 2002

Originally posted by edpobre

ZoneChaos,

Are you saying that  those who do NOT believe the Nicene Creed can be Christians too! Then why was I told NOT to post in the "Christians Only" forum because I don't believe the Nicene Creed? Is there a  NON-Trinitarian who believes ther Nicene Creed?

Ed

I would asume you were told not to, becasue we have a set view of Christian standards for our board.  That is not saying that those who may differ from us are not Christians, but it is saying that they are not in,line with our vision for the board and our testimony.  This board is as our church, and there needs to be a measure of harmony in the leadership, and vision and mission of the board.

Lanakila · Aug 23, 2002

You non-trinitarians have you ever read the book of Hebrews? It makes no sense unless Jesus is God the son. So we just discount the scriptures we don't like now, picking and chosing those that fit our already determined viewpoint. Let God be true and every man a Liar. Not only Hebrews but Isaiah 9:6 is very clear that the Messiah to come would be "Everlasting Father".

ansarthemystic · Aug 23, 2002

Lanakila,
Is it not possible that the people who wrote the NT(b/c there are verses affirming AND refuting the Trinity) and the Nicean Creed, were well aware of Hebrews and Isiaiah. Thus they encounterd a dilema:Yeshau(AS) had to be g-d, even though he never said so, b/c ONLY g-d could be the savior. Classic interpolation

peace and blessings
assalamu alaikum
shalom

edpobre · Aug 23, 2002

Originally posted by Lanakila
You non-trinitarians have you ever read the book of Hebrews? It makes no sense unless Jesus is God the son. So we just discount the scriptures we don't like now, picking and chosing those that fit our already determined viewpoint. Let God be true and every man a Liar. Not only Hebrews but Isaiah 9:6 is very clear that the Messiah to come would be "Everlasting Father".

Hi Lakanila!

I understand that your "already determined viewpoint" is the Trinity, right? And you PICK Isaiah 9:6 and Heb. 1:8 to the EXCLUSION of other verses you don't like because these verses FIT your "already determined viewpoint," right?

Isaiah 9:6 is either a prophecy that did NOT come true or a MISTRANSLATION which CONTRADICTS known and accepted TRUTHS about Jesus. If this were an accurate translation, then Isaiah's prophecy did NOT come true. Jesus was NEVER called "mighty God and everlasting Father."

Jesus said he is a MAN (John 8:40). His apostles TAUGHT that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 2:22; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5). Jesus taught that the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3). Jesus COMMANDED his disciples not to call anyone  on earth Father for ONE is their Father, He who is in heaven (Matt. 23:9).

Thus, the second part of Isaiah 9:6 is a MISTRANSLATION to provide support to the FALSE belief that Jesus is God.

Heb. 1:8 was LIFTED from a MISTRANSLATED version of Psalm 45:6. The Hebrew writer did NOT talk to God about God's Son. Heb. 1:1-2 teaches that God in various times spoke to our fathers by the prophets has in these last days spoke to us by His SON. Thus, the only way the Hebrew writer knew anything about what God said is by lifting it from the Old Testament.

Psalm 45 is a poem written for a king who is the most handsome among men (verse 2).  Psalm 45:6 is rendered by the Today's English Version as "the kingdom that God has given you." This version is supported by Luke 1:32-33.

Heb. 1:9 was lifted from Psalm 45:7 which is an accurate translation. You will note that this verse talks of God  anointing the king with oil ABOVE his fellows or companions. If the king were God as Psalm 45:6 and Heb. 1:8 would want us to believe, how many Gods can you read?

Ed

Laura · Aug 24, 2002

I've never met a Christian who didn't believe in the Trinity. I don't see how you can deny the Trinity...

edpobre · Aug 24, 2002

Originally posted by Laura
I've never met a Christian who didn't believe in the Trinity. I don't see how you can deny the Trinity...

Hi Laura!

I can't blame you. I bet neither your Sunday school teacher nor your pastor have met one either.

You see Laura, FALSE teachers and preachers will NEVER deliver the TRUE messages of God because they are NOT His messengers. As apostle Paul rhetorically asked: "But how can they preach UNLESS they are SENT?" (Romans 10:15)

Laura, the Bible teaches that DISCIPLES of Christ were first called CHRISTIANS in Antioch (Acts 11:26). Thus, CHRISTIANS are disciples of Christ. But WHO are DISCIPLES of Christ? The Bible teaches that a DISCIPLE of Christ is one who BELIEVES in Christ and ABIDES in his words (John 8:31).

Jesus SAID that he is a MAN (John 8:40) and the FATHER is the ONLY true God (John 17:3,1). Jesus also SAID that ONE is our FATHER, He who is in heaven (Matt. 23:9).  At the time Jesus SAID this, he was on earth with his disciples.

Do Trinitarians BELIEVE Jesus and ABIDE in these words? NO!Are Trinitarians DISCIPLES of Christ? NO! Are Trinitarians CHRISTIANS? NO!

Anyone can say he is an American even if he is NOT until authorities find out and deport him. Such is the fate of Trinitarians come judgment day unless they come out of their church NOW "lest they share in her sins and receive of her  plagues" (Rev. 18:4).

Ed

edpobre · Aug 24, 2002

Originally posted by eldermike
2TI 1:8 So do not be ashamed to testify about our Lord, or ashamed of me his prisoner. But join with me in suffering for the gospel, by the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, 10 but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel. 11 And of this gospel I was appointed a herald and an apostle and a teacher. 12 That is why I am suffering as I am. Yet I am not ashamed, because I know whom I have believed, and am convinced that he is able to guard what I have entrusted to him for that day.

Hi eldermike!

What was God's own purpose and grace that was given to the disciples in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time?

Let me quote to you God's word in the Toiday's English Version: "Even before the world was made, God had already chosen us to be his through our union with Christ, so that we would be holy and without fault in him. Because of his love God had alreeady decided that through Jersus Christ he would make us his sons - this was his plesure and purpose" (Eph. 1:4-5).

How do you become a son of God?

Ed

Laura · Aug 24, 2002

Sorry Ed, I'm not buying it.

Job_38 · Aug 24, 2002

John Chapter One, Verses one through fourteen.

Lanakila · Aug 24, 2002

Way too many scriptures to rationalize there guys. You seem to be picking and chosing the ones you like, and kicking out the ones you don't as mistranslations.

Neo · Aug 24, 2002

Originally posted by Duane Morse
Here is what I think:
God the Father is the Daddy, the male
God the Holy Spirit is Mommy, the female
God the Son is the kid, the offspring

are you a gnostic?

franklin · Aug 25, 2002

Originally posted by Phoenix
 I'm a strong supporter of a Trinity doctrine and believer that Jesus is God. If you do a little research on that verse you'll find that it only appears in a few later manuscripts. It's suspected by most scholars that the verse was added to the passage in error. 

Hi phoenix, you are correct sir!  This is one of the passages that was tampered with by the English translators. It has been suggested that is was designed to put to rest the debate concerning the doctrine of the trinity. Yet I think it would be safe to say that this verse would not have needed to be inserted into the Bible by any man if the doctrine were correct, because the bible would teach this doctrine clearly, and surely if it were true then Jesus himself would have taught it. But Jesus didn't teach this doctrine, on the contrary he actually taught us that his Father is his God and our God.  See Jn 20:17: Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

OldShepherd · Aug 26, 2002

Originally posted by El Pobre
Hi Lakanila!

I understand that your "already determined viewpoint" is the Trinity, right? And you PICK Isaiah 9:6 and Heb. 1:8 to the EXCLUSION of other verses you don't like because these verses FIT your "already determined viewpoint," right?

Isaiah 9:6 is either a prophecy that did NOT come true or a MISTRANSLATION which CONTRADICTS known and accepted TRUTHS about Jesus. If this were an accurate translation, then Isaiah's prophecy did NOT come true. Jesus was NEVER called "mighty God and everlasting Father."

Thus, the second part of Isaiah 9:6 is a MISTRANSLATION to provide support to the FALSE belief that Jesus is God.

Heb. 1:8 was LIFTED from a MISTRANSLATED version of Psalm 45:6. The Hebrew writer did NOT talk to God about God's Son. Heb. 1:1-2 teaches that God in various times spoke to our fathers by the prophets has in these last days spoke to us by His SON. Thus, the only way the Hebrew writer knew anything about what God said is by lifting it from the Old Testament.

Psalm 45 is a poem written for a king who is the most handsome among men (verse 2). Psalm 45:6 is rendered by the Today's English Version as "the kingdom that God has given you." This version is supported by Luke 1:32-33.

Heb. 1:9 was lifted from Psalm 45:7 which is an accurate translation. You will note that this verse talks of God; anointing the king with oil ABOVE his fellows or companions. If the king, were God as Psalm 45:6 and Heb. 1:8 would want us to believe, how many Gods can you read?Ed

First, I want to remind you that I asked you several questions about the Iglesia Ni Christi cult that you belong to and you never answered. Here are links for others who are interested in what this cult, which was founded in 1913, by Felix Manalo, teaches.

http://www.letusreason.org/igleidir.htm

http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/i00.html

Second, you have not presented one piece of proof or evidence that anything you have said is true. You might blindly follow the teachings of manalo and his son, who now runs the organization, but most thinking, reasoning, discerning, Christians want proof and evidence before they will believe the uneducated ramblings of a Pinoy Jim Jones or David Koresh.

Notice, how Hebrews 1 is correct when it agrees with your doctrine and mistranslated when it does not. Since you are trying to tell us that the O.T. was mistranslated and the disciples used a mistranslation, perhaps you can correctly translate this passage of Hebrew for us.

ככלב שב על-קאו כסיל שונה באולתו

Here is a quote from a book written in the 19th century by a messianic Jew. Note that throughout history the Jews considered Psalm 45 messianic.

Quote
=================================
The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah by Alfred Edersheim
Appendix IX. List of Old Testament Passages Messianically Applied in the Ancient Rabbinic Writings.

Ps. xlv. is throughout regarded as Messianic. To begin with; the Targum renders verse 2 (3 in the Hebrew): 'Thy beauty, O King Messiah, is greater than that of the sons of men.'

Verse 3 (4 in the Hebrew) is applied in the Talmud (Shabb 63 a) to the Messiah, although other interpretations of that verse immediately follow.

The application of verse 6 (7 in the Hebrew), to the Messiah in a MS. copy of the Targum has already been referred to in another part of his book, while the words, 'Thy throne is for ever and ever' are brought into connection with the promise that the sceptre would not depart from Judah in Ber. R. 99, ed. Warsh. p. 178 b, line 9 from the bottom.

On verse 7 the Targum though not in the Venice edition (1568), has: 'Thou O King Messiah because Thou lovest righteousness,' &c. Comp. Levy, Targum. vol. ii. p. 41 a.

The Midrash on the Psalm deals exclusively with the inscription (of which it has several and significant interpretations) with the opening words of the Psalm, and with the words (ver. 16), 'Instead of thy fathers shall be thy children,' but at the same time it clearly indicates that the Psalm applies to the latter, or Messianic, days.

http://www.ccel.org/e/edersheim/lifetimes/htm/VI.ix.htm#VI.ix

============================================

Since you claim that Hebrew chap. 1, relies on falsely translated scriptures perhaps you can tell us how the Qumran and Dead Sea Scrolls record these passages.

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Are Trinitarians Christians?

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